Russia admits it faces economic collapse over Putin's war

[Big Abraham]

So you've moved the goalposts from. "Sanctions won't work and will only harm Russian citizens" (even though it's patently clear it harms their war machine relied on to invading Ukraine),

It's ineffective insofar as it will bring no peaceful resolution and will continue to permanently escalate tensions. The Russian economy may collapse, and Russophobes like yourself will cheer, but all it will have done is ensure we will never be at peace with Russia, long after this is over. And you are naive to think that won't have far-reaching consequences for the future. So yes, sanctions don't work (since the solution is peace, which is impossible given how Biden has handled things), and it will only harm Russian citizens.

to "Well, they haven't attacked US directly, but only another liberal democracy

Lol, Ukraine is not a liberal democracy. Both Russia and Ukraine are degenerated states rife with corruption.

and harming our multiple interests in the region,

Literally the smoking gun. You outright admit the US doesn't give a f°°k about Ukrainians, it's about protecting American geopolitical interests there. Well guess what? Russia is trying to protect their interests in the region as well, and they have a hell of a better claim to East Europe being in their sphere of influence than America does. U.S. "interests" mean nothing other than what the cheerleaders of military conflagration desire, and certainly aren't worth the lives of human beings, which is what's at stake.

[All Along The Watchtower]

To be expected from the all-out economic and financial war to isolate the Russian economy from the global financial system. End these oppressive sanctions: they have never resulted in a change of policy (and certainly aren't now), and only hurts the already struggling civilian population who have no control over issues pertaining to foreign relations.

Why do you, a self-professed Marxist, support (or oppose people who oppose, at least) one of the most right-wing reactionary regimes on the planet?

PS: Ukraine is much closer to a democracy than Putin's Russia, especially these days. Plenty of democratic countries have issues with corruption, but Russia is very clearly far more authoritarian than Ukraine, considering that power has been increasingly centralized around one man for over two decades with the semi-exception of 2008-2012, and there's no obvious plan for succession once the spook in the Kremlin is gone--very much unlike Ukraine.

Flawed democracies are still democracies.

[Big Abraham]

To be expected from the all-out economic and financial war to isolate the Russian economy from the global financial system. End these oppressive sanctions: they have never resulted in a change of policy (and certainly aren't now), and only hurts the already struggling civilian population who have no control over issues pertaining to foreign relations.

Why do you, a self-professed Marxist, support (or oppose people who oppose, at least) one of the most right-wing reactionary regimes on the planet?

I don't support them. They're a hollow shell of what they were a half century ago. I do, however, oppose their systematic exclusion from global commerce, especially considering the friendly relations we maintain with powers far worse. When is Saudi Arabia getting their sanctions?

[All Along The Watchtower]

I don't support them.

Good!

They're a hollow shell of what they were a half century ago

You say that like it's a bad thing, but I suppose I'll agree to disagree about the USSR.

I do, however, oppose their systematic exclusion from global commerce

Putin has only himself to blame for that.

especially considering the friendly relations we maintain with powers far worse. When is Saudi Arabia getting their sanctions?

Believe it or not, I agree with you re: the Saudis and several other of our so-called "allies." Biden should've sanctioned MBS and stopped all arms sales to the Middle East as soon as he took office.  It's hypocritical and unconscionable af on the part of the US and UK in particular. Doesn't make their actions re: Russia incorrect though.

[Torrain]

If these numbers are anything close to accurate, then I find it hard to see the sanctions as anything other than highly successful. If we are to pressure/isolate Russia without provoking them militarily, then this is the best we can hope for.

Punish 140 million people for the actions of a few.

I don’t want the average Russian to suffer. But I don’t want the average Ukrainian to suffer either - and putting pressure on the former is one of the few ways to help the latter.

[Obama-Biden Democrat]

Why wouldn't the international community leverage sanctions as a way to help cripple the Russian state's ability to wage war, whether through financing or sourcing parts for producing new weapon systems?

I mean, yeah, it sucks that the Russian people have to pay the price for their leaders mistakes, but a lot of these Russians also appear to support the "special military operation" on some level. Either way, the west would be foolish to not use maximum pressure on a country that is waging a war of genocide on another country that did nothing to them.

The war has devastated the Ukrainian civilian population as well. The only way to win the war is to wear down the ability of the Russian state to wage war using economic, diplomatic and military pressure.

[Mopsus]

What we’re doing to the livelihoods of Russians pales in comparison to what Russians are doing to the livelihoods of Ukrainians.

Russia is a country of 144 million people. Collective guilt isn't just wrong, it's a grossly anti-humanitarian sentiment. You want to personally sanction Putin, the "oligarchs," the commanders in the Russian Armed Forces? Fine. Your average Ivan who has a family to take care of and is just trying to get by? Not a chance. This "starve them out" mentality is exceedingly barbaric, and not even something the staunchest McCarthyite would have proposed at the height of the cold war.

Opinion polling suggests that the average Ivan supports Putin. And those who don't will understand that sanctions are intended to punish Putin and hamper his war effort, which will only make them hate him more.

Not that it’s about revenge; it’s about the principle that when countries wage pointless, destructive wars of aggression, there will be consequences.

And the consequences should not be borne on those who are not responsible, especially with the foreknowledge that the people who will be the most affected by these sanctions are those who are the least responsible for it! It is the unholy alliance of futility and cruelty.

This same principles applies to why, for example, it would have been immoral for the international community to unilaterally move to isolate the U.S. economy from the global financial system after we invaded Iraq (or any other country you can dream up).

Wars involve entire countries. If Russia is not sanctioned, it will be easier for it to conduct its war; if Russia is sanctioned, it will be harder. Obviously our goal is to hurt Putin and his war effort and not the average Russian, but if Putin wants to sanctions to be called off, all he has to do is end his invasion. If he doesn't, that's his choice, not ours.

[Hindsight was 2020]

To be completely blunt here this is who Abraham is crying over being sanctioned

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheLeadCNN/status/1524525506288398336

[Badger]

So you've moved the goalposts from. "Sanctions won't work and will only harm Russian citizens" (even though it's patently clear it harms their war machine relied on to invading Ukraine),

It's ineffective insofar as it will bring no peaceful resolution and will continue to permanently escalate tensions. The Russian economy may collapse, and Russophobes like yourself will cheer, but all it will have done is ensure we will never be at peace with Russia, long after this is over. And you are naive to think that won't have far-reaching consequences for the future. So yes, sanctions don't work (since the solution is peace, which is impossible given how Biden has handled things), and it will only harm Russian citizens.

to "Well, they haven't attacked US directly, but only another liberal democracy

Lol, Ukraine is not a liberal democracy. Both Russia and Ukraine are degenerated states rife with corruption.

and harming our multiple interests in the region,

Literally the smoking gun. You outright admit the US doesn't give a f°°k about Ukrainians, it's about protecting American geopolitical interests there. Well guess what? Russia is trying to protect their interests in the region as well, and they have a hell of a better claim to East Europe being in their sphere of influence than America does. U.S. "interests" mean nothing other than what the cheerleaders of military conflagration desire, and certainly aren't worth the lives of human beings, which is what's at stake.

Where to begin on such a abysmally stupid post on so many levels?

Peace will come from Ukraine's military kicking the Russians out. Sanctions harm Russia's War Machine. Period end of sentence. If creating pressure at the highest levels for a potential coup or what pressure is possible on Putin to throw in the towel, great. If you truly believe that the massive contraction of the Russian economy doesn't impede Russia's ability to fight this war, which again leads to peace when Ukraine beats Russia out of the country, then you are simply being a delusional and dishonest temp for putin. (Checks poster's history) Oh wait, that scans.

Second, Ukraine is hardly perfect, but it is in fact a functioning democracy with opposition parties in largely free media. I realized it to you the Pinnacle of freedom is a country like Cuba, but to reality, Ukraine comes close enough. It's certainly a million miles ahead of Rush in that regard. And furthermore there's this Teensy little issue that ukrainians don't want Russia to run their country and literally kidnapp her people and ship them across the continent.

Third, have you barely notice self-awareness when you post garbage like this? My point about American national interests being attacked WAS IN DIRECT RESPONSE  TO YOUR wrongheaded argument that Russia's invasion of Ukraine has nothing to do with us because it's not our country. So your response has been basically first hey it doesn't affect us. I point out oh yes it does because we have very tangible and concrete geopolitical interests there. Your response,! Just proves that you don't care about ukrainians!!

Actually Tankie boy oh, I very much do care about the millions of ukrainians being killed, displaced, crippled, sent to camps in Russia, raped, militarily occupied, and generally f***** over by an authoritarian government ignoring every rule of law and basic National sovereignty. This is of course rather Rich coming from you since you have shown throughout your entire posting history that you do not get one rat's ass about what ukrainians are suffering through right now, but just again continue to boot lick putin.

Begone you disingenuous ideologically hackish cheerleader for the chief murderer and rapist in Russia.

[Big Abraham]

Most of Badger's post is ad hominem not worth the pixels it's printed on, but I do want to respond to this one point:

My point about American national interests being attacked WAS IN DIRECT RESPONSE  TO YOUR wrongheaded argument that Russia's invasion of Ukraine has nothing to do with us because it's not our country. So your response has been basically first hey it doesn't affect us. I point out oh yes it does because we have very tangible and concrete geopolitical interests there. Your response,! Just proves that you don't care about ukrainians!!

I was referring to the position of the U.S. national security forces, not the feelings of any poster here. But the interests of the U.S. national security forces are not at all analogous to the interests of the country as a whole. That is all.

[Badger]

Most of Badger's post is ad hominem not worth the pixels it's printed on, but I do want to respond to this one point:

My point about American national interests being attacked WAS IN DIRECT RESPONSE  TO YOUR wrongheaded argument that Russia's invasion of Ukraine has nothing to do with us because it's not our country. So your response has been basically first hey it doesn't affect us. I point out oh yes it does because we have very tangible and concrete geopolitical interests there. Your response,! Just proves that you don't care about ukrainians!!

I was referring to the position of the U.S. national security forces, not the feelings of any poster here. But the interests of the U.S. national security forces are not at all analogous to the interests of the country as a whole. That is all.

What utter tripe. So, you can't respond to the rest.

Keep simping for Uncle Vlad.

[Big Abraham]

Most of Badger's post is ad hominem not worth the pixels it's printed on, but I do want to respond to this one point:

My point about American national interests being attacked WAS IN DIRECT RESPONSE  TO YOUR wrongheaded argument that Russia's invasion of Ukraine has nothing to do with us because it's not our country. So your response has been basically first hey it doesn't affect us. I point out oh yes it does because we have very tangible and concrete geopolitical interests there. Your response,! Just proves that you don't care about ukrainians!!

I was referring to the position of the U.S. national security forces, not the feelings of any poster here. But the interests of the U.S. national security forces are not at all analogous to the interests of the country as a whole. That is all.

What utter tripe. So, you can't respond to the rest.

What is there to respond to? The rest of your post was the usual accusations of me being a tankie or Putin shill. How else am I supposed to react other than by mere negation? No, I don't support the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Yes, Putin did a naughty. Not once have I denied this. My critique will always be focused on the actions of NATO and the US Government, because they're in theory supposed to represent me and I'm opposed to sanctions and military escalation when we are not being attacked.

Oddly enough 16% of Americans according to a recent poll think we're giving too much money/weapons to Ukraine, but this view has exactly 0% representation in either the media or DC.

[Estrella]

Literally the smoking gun. You outright admit the US doesn't give a f°°k about Ukrainians, it's about protecting American geopolitical interests there. Well guess what? Russia is trying to protect their interests in the region as well, and they have a hell of a better claim to East Europe being in their sphere of influence than America does. U.S. "interests" mean nothing other than what the cheerleaders of military conflagration desire, and certainly aren't worth the lives of human beings, which is what's at stake.

Most Eastern Europeans don't have a problem with their countries being an avenue for projection of US interests if that means protection from Putin's imperialist fantasies. Yes, yes, I know, you think America should only care for (and about) itself. An America run by Big Abrahamist left, having the resources to help Eastern Europe and yet choosing to let Putin stomp on their countries and human rights: what a wonderful example of anti-imperialism and protecting the opressed would that be!

[Badger]

Most of Badger's post is ad hominem not worth the pixels it's printed on, but I do want to respond to this one point:

My point about American national interests being attacked WAS IN DIRECT RESPONSE  TO YOUR wrongheaded argument that Russia's invasion of Ukraine has nothing to do with us because it's not our country. So your response has been basically first hey it doesn't affect us. I point out oh yes it does because we have very tangible and concrete geopolitical interests there. Your response,! Just proves that you don't care about ukrainians!!

I was referring to the position of the U.S. national security forces, not the feelings of any poster here. But the interests of the U.S. national security forces are not at all analogous to the interests of the country as a whole. That is all.

What utter tripe. So, you can't respond to the rest.

What is there to respond to? The rest of your post was the usual accusations of me being a tankie or Putin shill. How else am I supposed to react other than by mere negation? No, I don't support the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Yes, Putin did a naughty. Not once have I denied this. My critique will always be focused on the actions of NATO and the US Government, because they're in theory supposed to represent me and I'm opposed to sanctions and military escalation when we are not being attacked.

Oddly enough 16% of Americans according to a recent poll think we're giving too much money/weapons to Ukraine, but this view has exactly 0% representation in either the media or DC.

You misspelled ruthless borderline genocidal cultural destroying forced ethnic cleansing imperialist unprovoked imperialist invasion  as "a  naughty "

Extremely telling, and pretty repulsive

[DaleCooper]

Leftists tend to view everything as a great big power struggle between giants representing opposing ideologies. They rarely care about loss of life so I don't know why people are surprised they still don't.

[HillGoose]

why do so many ppl feel sorry for Russia? they would do the same thing to us if they could, so why shouldn't we do it to them?

[All Along The Watchtower]

Big Abraham's point about "Russia and the US are both trying to protect their interests" is technically true but sidesteps the fact that Russia is far worse than the US both in its behavior and in the nature of its political system. So that's a fail on his part.

Also, holy America-centrism! Most European countries, particularly those bordering Russia, are opposed to Russia. And these are mostly democracies btw, certainly far more democratic than Russia. But it's clear that for the likes of these Putin apologists and deflectors you can be the most murderous dictatorship in the world as long as you toe the "anti-imperialist" line (see: Bashar al-Assad - himself saved by Russian military intervention and war crimes!), and every lie in the struggle against the Great Satan (USA) is noble (e.g. "the Syrian opposition did false flag chemical weapons attacks that the AmeriKKKan Deep State blamed on Assad").

Literally the same kinds of people who defended Molotov-Ribbentrop and the joint Nazi-Soviet subjugation of Poland. No better than the Beltway Blob creatures who try to justify unconditional support to Israel, the Saudis, the UAE, Egypt, etc. - arguably worse, because at least those think tank suits aren't pretending to be left-wing in any real way. I find tankies and those sympathetic to them deeply, deeply offensive, and morally rotten.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Leftists tend to view everything as a great big power struggle between giants representing opposing ideologies. They rarely care about loss of life so I don't know why people are surprised they still don't.

Hey!


#NotAllLeftists

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Oh, look at this...

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/19/russia-approaches-chinese-firms-to-revive-soviet-era-moskvitch-cars-reports-a77733

French leave? Welcome China!

[PSOL]

This is leagues worse than Vietnam.

Dear god I hope the reds make it.

[Farmlands]

This is leagues worse than Vietnam.

Dear god I hope the reds make it.

Who even are the reds that you're rooting for here? Putin and Russia's ruling party certainly aren't.

[PSOL]

This is leagues worse than Vietnam.

Dear god I hope the reds make it.

Who even are the reds that you're rooting for here? Putin and Russia's ruling party certainly aren't.

Take a guess