SCOTUS overturns Roe megathread (pg 53 - confirmed)

[Vespucci]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Good thing saying you can't kill your offspring you consented to help creating isn't the government telling you how to manage your body.

I mean, even if you consider abortion to be killing your offspring, abortion bans are still the government telling you how to manage your body. Criminal law is by definition the government telling you what you can and cannot do.

You have the choice in managing your body by choosing whether or not to engage in acts that naturally lead to pregnancy.

If the government passed a law banning anyone who lives in Virginia from drinking soda, that would be the government telling you how to manage your body, right? Yes, you could move out of Virginia to avoid the law, but the government would still be taking away a choice from you.

[Hermit For Peace]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Abortion is legalized murder. Why are you pro-murder?

Who says it's murder? You?

You're taking a human being and ending its life prematurely. That's murder.

Who says it is a human being at that point? You? Science? The Church? The Government? Is the fetus viable outside of the womb? What are you "murdering", specifically?

Science, actually. Viability outside of the womb has nothing to do with whether or not the person in the womb is a human being.

All Science can see is that there is something growing in there. But Science cannot tell us exactly when life begins. Nobody can. An argument someone else made is that since we can't know exactly when life begins, then we have to treat it as though life begins at conception.

That is one perspective. But it is not THE perspective because nobody has all the answers. We're all just fumbling along, trying to make decisions that are pretty much impossible to make. And with our Puritan background, people are strongly swayed by the God conversation. Which we make up anyway.

Seems to me that the best way to go is for those women and girls who want and need an abortion to be able to go get one safely. (And no, the government doesn't have to provide for it. That could be part of the deal.) And then anyone who is against having an abortion, just don't get one. You are only in control of your own body, not the bodies of ALL women.
 

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

Should Government be involved in abortion?  This issue is never going to be "won", and the moral debate over it will last forever - and it's a particularly religious issue.  

You can't talk about the history of the abortion debate in the United States without talking about religion.

The issues of abortion, contraceptives, and a new issue- hormones for trans kids - are all linked - it's about whether people have the right to be imposing their religious beliefs on other people... and controlling what those people and those families decide is best for them.  It's about CONTROL.

I say no.  A person deserves complete autonomy over their own body, and if that right's not going to be respected, then we might as well forget about every other right because it doesn't matter anymore.  

You cannot say you live in a free country when you do not have rights over what is yours - and no one else's.

Well said. I agree with all you said here. Great post. I guess it all boils down to the fact that we are a Puritan nation. We came from Puritans and how are we going to possibly shake those kinds of roots? We are probably never going to be able to shake them until some enlightened era of time in the far distant future.

But that is not to say that we shouldn't keep fighting for equality and clarity in the here and now.

So I assume that each of you are opposed to COVID-19 vaccine mandates.  After all, that requires people to take medicine they don't want in order to keep their job, etc.  

If we're going to have this debate as to "My Body, My Choice!" then let's go all the way with it.  

[Hermit For Peace]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Good thing saying you can't kill your offspring you consented to help creating isn't the government telling you how to manage your body.

I mean, even if you consider abortion to be killing your offspring, abortion bans are still the government telling you how to manage your body. Criminal law is by definition the government telling you what you can and cannot do.

You have the choice in managing your body by choosing whether or not to engage in acts that naturally lead to pregnancy.

This is our Puritan background in action. You may want to live like a priest or a nun, but most people don't. While your argument may be true on one level, it's not a realistic one in modern times.

You are also discounting the fact that many women and girls are raped. Even by their own family members. They are raped in the military. They are raped at school. They are raped everywhere. Not everything is fun sex in bed.

[Hermit For Peace]

Should Government be involved in abortion?  This issue is never going to be "won", and the moral debate over it will last forever - and it's a particularly religious issue. 

You can't talk about the history of the abortion debate in the United States without talking about religion.

The issues of abortion, contraceptives, and a new issue- hormones for trans kids - are all linked - it's about whether people have the right to be imposing their religious beliefs on other people... and controlling what those people and those families decide is best for them.  It's about CONTROL.

I say no.  A person deserves complete autonomy over their own body, and if that right's not going to be respected, then we might as well forget about every other right because it doesn't matter anymore. 

You cannot say you live in a free country when you do not have rights over what is yours - and no one else's.

Well said. I agree with all you said here. Great post. I guess it all boils down to the fact that we are a Puritan nation. We came from Puritans and how are we going to possibly shake those kinds of roots? We are probably never going to be able to shake them until some enlightened era of time in the far distant future.

But that is not to say that we shouldn't keep fighting for equality and clarity in the here and now.

So I assume that each of you are opposed to COVID-19 vaccine mandates.  After all, that requires people to take medicine they don't want in order to keep their job, etc. 

If we're going to have this debate as to "My Body, My Choice!" then let's go all the way with it. 

Hello Fuzzy. The conversation is not about Covid. A pandemic is different from a pregnancy.

[Thank you for being a friend...]

Should Government be involved in abortion?  This issue is never going to be "won", and the moral debate over it will last forever - and it's a particularly religious issue.  

You can't talk about the history of the abortion debate in the United States without talking about religion.

The issues of abortion, contraceptives, and a new issue- hormones for trans kids - are all linked - it's about whether people have the right to be imposing their religious beliefs on other people... and controlling what those people and those families decide is best for them.  It's about CONTROL.

I say no.  A person deserves complete autonomy over their own body, and if that right's not going to be respected, then we might as well forget about every other right because it doesn't matter anymore.  

You cannot say you live in a free country when you do not have rights over what is yours - and no one else's.

Well said. I agree with all you said here. Great post. I guess it all boils down to the fact that we are a Puritan nation. We came from Puritans and how are we going to possibly shake those kinds of roots? We are probably never going to be able to shake them until some enlightened era of time in the far distant future.

But that is not to say that we shouldn't keep fighting for equality and clarity in the here and now.

So I assume that each of you are opposed to COVID-19 vaccine mandates.  After all, that requires people to take medicine they don't want in order to keep their job, etc.  

If we're going to have this debate as to "My Body, My Choice!" then let's go all the way with it.  

That's right - I don't believe in any mandates regarding vaccines, you cannot force somebody to inject something into their body they don't want to, that's Statism in my book.

The COVID vaccine mandates were overreaching, and they were not in accordance with the basic American ideas of freedom.  I don't really believe in mandates.

Government, in my view, can give, can provide, can certainly help people, but it should not dictate how people live or force or impose anything on the people that they don't want.

Government has, or should, have limits on what it's capable of doing.  

[fhtagn]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Good thing saying you can't kill your offspring you consented to help creating isn't the government telling you how to manage your body.

I mean, even if you consider abortion to be killing your offspring, abortion bans are still the government telling you how to manage your body. Criminal law is by definition the government telling you what you can and cannot do.

You have the choice in managing your body by choosing whether or not to engage in acts that naturally lead to pregnancy.

This is our Puritan background in action. You may want to live like a priest or a nun, but most people don't. While your argument may be true on one level, it's not a realistic one in modern times.

You are also discounting the fact that many women and girls are raped. Even by their own family members. They are raped in the military. They are raped at school. They are raped everywhere. Not everything is fun sex in bed.

You're pretending the vast majority of unwanted pregnancies are the results of rape, when it clearly isn't even a significant percentage of unwanted pregnancies leading to abortion.

[Hermit For Peace]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Good thing saying you can't kill your offspring you consented to help creating isn't the government telling you how to manage your body.

I mean, even if you consider abortion to be killing your offspring, abortion bans are still the government telling you how to manage your body. Criminal law is by definition the government telling you what you can and cannot do.

You have the choice in managing your body by choosing whether or not to engage in acts that naturally lead to pregnancy.

This is our Puritan background in action. You may want to live like a priest or a nun, but most people don't. While your argument may be true on one level, it's not a realistic one in modern times.

You are also discounting the fact that many women and girls are raped. Even by their own family members. They are raped in the military. They are raped at school. They are raped everywhere. Not everything is fun sex in bed.

You're pretending the vast majority of unwanted pregnancies are the results of rape, when it clearly isn't even a significant percentage of unwanted pregnancies leading to abortion.

You put words into my mouth that I didn't say. I said that you were discounting the fact that many women get raped, and that is true.

Regardless, I find your argument very narrow and one-sided. I can't agree with the direction of your conversation. Been there done that.

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

Should Government be involved in abortion?  This issue is never going to be "won", and the moral debate over it will last forever - and it's a particularly religious issue. 

You can't talk about the history of the abortion debate in the United States without talking about religion.

The issues of abortion, contraceptives, and a new issue- hormones for trans kids - are all linked - it's about whether people have the right to be imposing their religious beliefs on other people... and controlling what those people and those families decide is best for them.  It's about CONTROL.

I say no.  A person deserves complete autonomy over their own body, and if that right's not going to be respected, then we might as well forget about every other right because it doesn't matter anymore. 

You cannot say you live in a free country when you do not have rights over what is yours - and no one else's.

Well said. I agree with all you said here. Great post. I guess it all boils down to the fact that we are a Puritan nation. We came from Puritans and how are we going to possibly shake those kinds of roots? We are probably never going to be able to shake them until some enlightened era of time in the far distant future.

But that is not to say that we shouldn't keep fighting for equality and clarity in the here and now.

So I assume that each of you are opposed to COVID-19 vaccine mandates.  After all, that requires people to take medicine they don't want in order to keep their job, etc. 

If we're going to have this debate as to "My Body, My Choice!" then let's go all the way with it. 

Hello Fuzzy. The conversation is not about Covid. A pandemic is different from a pregnancy.

There is a difference between a pandemic and a pregnancy, yes.  From your point of view, It's about the principle of bodily autonomy vs. the issue of unborn human life.

Taking a COVID-19 vaccine is injecting medicines into my body with any number of side effects.  It's fair to ask why people whose slogan "My Body, My Choice" and "Keep Your Laws Off My Body", etc, apply this principle only to abortion.

Since "My Body, My Choice!", "Keep Your Laws Off My Body!" have been the signature slogans of the Pro-Choice movement, it's not unreasonable to ask you why the same Government that would interfere with your Bodily Autonomy in the matter of an abortion would be OK with that same Government mandate that I take several doses of experimental COVID-19 vaccines in order to be able to hold my job, travel, etc.  The "abortion" question isn't one that occurs in a vacuum; it occurs in the context of the conflict between the principles of defining where human life begins and the questions of bodily autonomy.  If you are asserting the issue of Bodily Autonomy, then it's hardly "off topic" to ask just exactly why the principle of bodily autonomy ought to apply entirely to abortion but not at all to the COVID-19 vaccine, which is mandated.

I would also point out that this is a POLITICAL discussion forum.  Remaining "on topic" should not require posters to not challenge the narratives being formed by the originators of threads.  The issue of Bodily Autonomy is the HEART of the abortion issue for most of the Left; they OUGHT to be able to defend why they advocate why they wish to violate my own bodily autonomy with COVID-19 mandates.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

What I would honestly like to see with respect to abortion policy is this:

Assemble a distinguished panel of obstetricians, neuroscientists, and philosophers studying philosophy of mind and phenomology and task them with assembling a report with their consensus opinion on when human life/consciousness begins. 

We should agree in advance that whatever their decision is will be binding national abortion policy, with abortion always permitted before this point, and prohibited beyond this point with narrow excpetions.

Good luck getting everybody to agree to..well, pretty much anything. 

"Why do THEY get to decide when life begins? I know that life begins at X."

And then we're right back to where we started. 

Plus, conflating "life" and "consciousness" in this sense, as opposed to linking personhood to some other feature of human biology (genetic distinctness from the parents, getting past the point where twinning is possible, first heartbeat, viability, birth and first breath, whatever), is itself a philosophical position that is not self-evident. It's a very widespread, many would say even common-sense one, but it's not the sort of thing that everyone in America would just take a panel of experts' word on.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

What I would honestly like to see with respect to abortion policy is this:

Assemble a distinguished panel of obstetricians, neuroscientists, and philosophers studying philosophy of mind and phenomology and task them with assembling a report with their consensus opinion on when human life/consciousness begins.  

We should agree in advance that whatever their decision is will be binding national abortion policy, with abortion always permitted before this point, and prohibited beyond this point with narrow excpetions.

There should be no national abortion policy other than the basic exceptions are protected and third trimester abortions being banned. Other than that it should be fully up to the states

If you believe that abortion is murder, why do you believe murder should be legal in some states but not others?

[OSR stands with Israel]

We are pretty close to 50 pages

[fhtagn]

We are pretty close to 50 pages

We can do it! It wasn't by the start of the weekend, but I'll take it for the end.

[OSR stands with Israel]

We are pretty close to 50 pages

We can do it! It wasn't by the start of the weekend, but I'll take it for the end.

So which thread had more fireworks , this or the Florida threads

[fhtagn]

We are pretty close to 50 pages

We can do it! It wasn't by the start of the weekend, but I'll take it for the end.

So which thread had more fireworks , this or the Florida threads

The Virginia elections thread lmao

[OSR stands with Israel]

We are pretty close to 50 pages

We can do it! It wasn't by the start of the weekend, but I'll take it for the end.

So which thread had more fireworks , this or the Florida threads

The Virginia elections thread lmao

Oh yes , that was a glorious night . Governor YoungKing !!!

[fhtagn]

We are pretty close to 50 pages

We can do it! It wasn't by the start of the weekend, but I'll take it for the end.

So which thread had more fireworks , this or the Florida threads

The Virginia elections thread lmao

Oh yes , that was a glorious night . Governor YoungKing !!!

We did it!

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

We are pretty close to 50 pages

We can do it! It wasn't by the start of the weekend, but I'll take it for the end.

So which thread had more fireworks , this or the Florida threads

The Virginia elections thread lmao

Oh yes , that was a glorious night . Governor YoungKing !!!

I disagree that it was glorious, but, much like CO-SEN 2014, it makes a great cautionary tale of Democratic campaigns overplaying their hands on sociocultural issues that might benefit them politically if they approached them in a more balanced way.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Should Government be involved in abortion?  This issue is never going to be "won", and the moral debate over it will last forever - and it's a particularly religious issue.  

You can't talk about the history of the abortion debate in the United States without talking about religion.

The issues of abortion, contraceptives, and a new issue- hormones for trans kids - are all linked - it's about whether people have the right to be imposing their religious beliefs on other people... and controlling what those people and those families decide is best for them.  It's about CONTROL.

I say no.  A person deserves complete autonomy over their own body, and if that right's not going to be respected, then we might as well forget about every other right because it doesn't matter anymore.  

You cannot say you live in a free country when you do not have rights over what is yours - and no one else's.

Well said. I agree with all you said here. Great post. I guess it all boils down to the fact that we are a Puritan nation. We came from Puritans and how are we going to possibly shake those kinds of roots? We are probably never going to be able to shake them until some enlightened era of time in the far distant future.

But that is not to say that we shouldn't keep fighting for equality and clarity in the here and now.

So I assume that each of you are opposed to COVID-19 vaccine mandates.  After all, that requires people to take medicine they don't want in order to keep their job, etc.  

If we're going to have this debate as to "My Body, My Choice!" then let's go all the way with it.  

That's right - I don't believe in any mandates regarding vaccines, you cannot force somebody to inject something into their body they don't want to, that's Statism in my book.

The COVID vaccine mandates were overreaching, and they were not in accordance with the basic American ideas of freedom.  I don't really believe in mandates.

Government, in my view, can give, can provide, can certainly help people, but it should not dictate how people live or force or impose anything on the people that they don't want.

Government has, or should, have limits on what it's capable of doing.  

Let me say while we may disagree on social issues and sometimes even vehemently, I give you props for being consistent in your beliefs here. Much respect for that

[Devils30]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/roe-v-wade-overturn-opinion-poll-2022-05-08/

Not exactly a promising poll for the GOP.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/roe-v-wade-overturn-opinion-poll-2022-05-08/

Not exactly a promising poll for the GOP.

Unfortunately, there is little to no evidence that promising to do things that are overwhelmingly opposed by the general public actually hurts your election chances.

[Hermit For Peace]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/roe-v-wade-overturn-opinion-poll-2022-05-08/

Not exactly a promising poll for the GOP.

That was interesting. Thanks for posting that.

[Thank you for being a friend...]

Should Government be involved in abortion?  This issue is never going to be "won", and the moral debate over it will last forever - and it's a particularly religious issue.  

You can't talk about the history of the abortion debate in the United States without talking about religion.

The issues of abortion, contraceptives, and a new issue- hormones for trans kids - are all linked - it's about whether people have the right to be imposing their religious beliefs on other people... and controlling what those people and those families decide is best for them.  It's about CONTROL.

I say no.  A person deserves complete autonomy over their own body, and if that right's not going to be respected, then we might as well forget about every other right because it doesn't matter anymore.  

You cannot say you live in a free country when you do not have rights over what is yours - and no one else's.

Well said. I agree with all you said here. Great post. I guess it all boils down to the fact that we are a Puritan nation. We came from Puritans and how are we going to possibly shake those kinds of roots? We are probably never going to be able to shake them until some enlightened era of time in the far distant future.

But that is not to say that we shouldn't keep fighting for equality and clarity in the here and now.

So I assume that each of you are opposed to COVID-19 vaccine mandates.  After all, that requires people to take medicine they don't want in order to keep their job, etc.  

If we're going to have this debate as to "My Body, My Choice!" then let's go all the way with it.  

That's right - I don't believe in any mandates regarding vaccines, you cannot force somebody to inject something into their body they don't want to, that's Statism in my book.

The COVID vaccine mandates were overreaching, and they were not in accordance with the basic American ideas of freedom.  I don't really believe in mandates.

Government, in my view, can give, can provide, can certainly help people, but it should not dictate how people live or force or impose anything on the people that they don't want.

Government has, or should, have limits on what it's capable of doing.  

Let me say while we may disagree on social issues and sometimes even vehemently, I give you props for being consistent in your beliefs here. Much respect for that

Much respect as well for your contributions and your feelings about the issues

[Yoda]

https://twitter.com/DouglasKBlair/status/1523095574156742657

The people who leaked this need to be arrested and throw in prison for years

For what crime?

For leaking the address of supremes court justices . The police also should be sent to clear that neighborhood out

Your side may get its way in overturning Roe, but you don't get to overturn the First Amendment as well. That would invite war.

This is undermining the free and fair judicial process, and clear example of intimidation

Where do you stand on Jan. 6th protesters being put in jail?

[Yoda]

Since when is a person's address classified material and above the level for people to protest? Just say you want a new restriction on First Amendment rights.

No I think they have all the right to protest but a large group of people descending on your neighborhood could absolutely intimidate the justices into making a decision which would undermine the judicial process.


I will say this the national guard should be sent in to protect their homes to ensure these protesters can’t step a foot on private property

LMAO. Well we finally know what republicans think the National Guard exists for, as they clearly don't believe the Guard should be used to protect the US Capitol building from violent terrorists. No sir, they are there to protect judges who perjured themselves during confirmation hearings from ever having to experience protesters exercise their first amendment rights. Come to think of it, shouldn't Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Barett be jailed for perjury?