Sweden and Finland set to join NATO in May

[rc18]

If you count most of the UK media at the time as "Jew haters" then maybe.

Even most Israelis/Zionists admit stuff like the King David Hotel bombing was indefensible.

Of course the British media wouldn't be sympathic, the independence movement was de facto at war with Britain! It wasn't just bombings but fighter combat etc. Britain at the time was very anti-semitic, yes, and was carrying out discriminatory policies against the Jews in the mandate.

it is very much defended as a necessary part of achieving independence.

The point is it is all in the eye of the beholder, and indeed larger countries usually dictate the narrative over who is described as a terrorist or a freedom fighter, and there is often no consistency in the term apart from who was fighting against whom.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

They are terrorists in the sense that the US (and UK) desperately want Turkey on-side, and officially designating them terrorists is the price. Turning a blind eye to Turkish genocide is a price they are very willing to pay. Same reason why the West didn't come rushing to the aid of the Armenians in the way it has with Ukraine...

No, the PKK really are terrorists. For example:
https://www.france24.com/en/20160314-turkey-strikes-kurdish-targets-iraq-after-deadly-suicide-bombing-ankara

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Note, for example, the Jews in Israel conducted many bombings against British targets before independence, in part because of discriminatory policies.

If we are being rational, a key difference between the terms is whether there are legitimate grievances and there is no means to fight more conventionally. What is happening to the Kurds is ethnic cleansing, same as the Turks did to Armenians before. The Kurds are completely outmatched by the Turkish military, it is hardly surprising they must resort to such tactics.

There are plenty worse groups that the US considers friends, and indeed arms,  because the use of the term terrorist is entirely political and not a rational distinction. In fact the US has supported Kurdish groups outside Turkey who use similar tactics. The only reason the PKK is branded a terrorist group is because the US must suck Erdogan's dick.

The Haganah did not use suicide bombings and did not intentionally target civilians. The PKK does.

[Antonio the Sixth]

enough with the israelposting please

[Frodo]

Returning to the original thread topic, it looks like we might see Finland joining NATO, but not Sweden:

Sweden’s NATO Bid Is in Trouble
Domestic politics have elevated a Kurdish parliamentarian, and that worsens Stockholm’s Turkey woes.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Turkey out.
Sweden in.

Start recognizing Kurdistan.

[Badger]

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

They are terrorists in the sense that the US (and UK) desperately want Turkey on-side, and officially designating them terrorists is the price. Turning a blind eye to Turkish genocide is a price the US is very willing to pay. Same reason why the West didn't come rushing to the aid of the Armenians in the way it has with Ukraine...

In retrospect, perhaps our recognizing The Armenian Genocide last year was a bit premature. We could have potentially used a promise not to do so at least for the foreseeable future as alternative leverage against turkey. I'm not saying I opposed that recognition-quite the opposite- but it's fairly symbolic and has more impact on turkeys view of the world than our own. Priorities and all that.

[Pick Up the Phone]

Turkey out.
Sweden in.

Start recognizing Kurdistan.

Both would be incredibly stupid.

[Lord Halifax]

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

They are terrorists in the sense that the US (and UK) desperately want Turkey on-side, and officially designating them terrorists is the price. Turning a blind eye to Turkish genocide is a price the US is very willing to pay. Same reason why the West didn't come rushing to the aid of the Armenians in the way it has with Ukraine...

In retrospect, perhaps our recognizing The Armenian Genocide last year was a bit premature. We could have potentially used a promise not to do so at least for the foreseeable future as alternative leverage against turkey. I'm not saying I opposed that recognition-quite the opposite- but it's fairly symbolic and has more impact on turkeys view of the world than our own. Priorities and all that.

Not recognizing one of the worst genocides ever committed should never be used as a political tool, it was a disgrace it took so long.

[Badger]

NATO is an alliance expressly aimed at strengthening member states' national security. Turkey has been a member for decades while Finland and Sweden now want to be in. If Finland and Sweden are actually supporting Kurdish independence fighters using violent means, I don't think it is strange at all for Turkey to demand concessions before they can enter NATO. And I also think it is ridiculous for Swedish foreign policy to be hijacked by one Kurdish MP who apparently holds a massive amount of power.

Yeah I actually agree with this. No love for Erdogran, but the PKK are terrorists and if Sweden is turning a blind eye to them that deserves a response.

They are terrorists in the sense that the US (and UK) desperately want Turkey on-side, and officially designating them terrorists is the price. Turning a blind eye to Turkish genocide is a price the US is very willing to pay. Same reason why the West didn't come rushing to the aid of the Armenians in the way it has with Ukraine...

In retrospect, perhaps our recognizing The Armenian Genocide last year was a bit premature. We could have potentially used a promise not to do so at least for the foreseeable future as alternative leverage against turkey. I'm not saying I opposed that recognition-quite the opposite- but it's fairly symbolic and has more impact on turkeys view of the world than our own. Priorities and all that.

Not recognizing one of the worst genocides ever committed should never be used as a political tool, it was a disgrace it took so long.

Never Say Never. Recognizing it in a vacuum was the right thing to do and indeed long overdue. However, if given a choice in 2022 where we had not yet made such recognition that if we held off doing so at least a few more years it would permit Sweden and Finland a relatively seamless entry into NATO without having to conduct some very sketchy extraditions of Kurdish activists, I frankly would be okay with that.

As morally correct is it the recognition of the Armenian Genocide is, it's still fundamentally a symbolic gesture. Admission of Sweden and Finland into NATO helps ever-so-slightly squeeze the Vice on Putin's War Machine in the Ukraine which is actively killing thousands.

[Frodo]

NATO, Swedish leaders 'committed' to addressing Turkey's terror concerns

[President Johnson]

Just [you know what] this guy at this point. Can we trade Sweden and Finland for Turkey?

https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1537125332511334403

[Isaak]

Just [you know what] this guy at this point. Can we trade Sweden and Finland for Turkey?

No, because we're not [you know what]-ing stupid.

1) From a strategic perspective, Türkiye >>> Sweden and Finland. It's not even close.

2) Stoltenberg has already declared that the Turkish concerns are perfectly legitimate. And he is right. The extent to which PKK terrorism is condoned by many Europeans is disgusting.

[Estrella]

Just [you know what] this guy at this point. Can we trade Sweden and Finland for Turkey?

No, because we're not [you know what]-ing stupid.

1) From a strategic perspective, Türkiye >>> Sweden and Finland. It's not even close.

2) Stoltenberg has already declared that the Turkish concerns are perfectly legitimate. And he is right. The extent to which PKK terrorism is condoned by many Europeans is disgusting.

lol

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I kinda miss Tender and his vendetta against "Islamofascists".

On a serious note, Sweden can't concede anything, given that Erdoğan hasn't indicated what he actually wants. All he's given us are vague ramblings of an electioneering and/or mad authocrat who is more than happy to interfere in internal politics of his allies when it suits him. This is, after all, the man who once threatened to declare war on the US over their supposed support for the feTHuLlAhiST TerRoRist orGaNiSatiON.

[President Johnson]

German media reporting that Turkey has given up opposition to Sweden and Finland joining NATO.

https://twitter.com/dwnews/status/1541852568539758598

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

I'm guessing there is, at least, the concession of "We'll look the other way when you invade Tel Rifaat."

[Storr]

German media reporting that Turkey has given up opposition to Sweden and Finland joining NATO.

https://twitter.com/dwnews/status/1541852568539758598

based

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What an extremely surprising turn of events.

[Alben Barkley]

Fantastic news!

Get f—ked, Putin. Now NATO is bigger and better than ever.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

It's not over until the fat lady sings. Turkey isn't likely to flip again, but there's nothing stopping e.g. Hungary from throwing a spanner in the works as late as the final ratification stage (which Finland and Sweden are weeks away from, if not months).

[Middle-aged Europe]

Ah great, Erdogan has finally figured that he has played the "Turkey Türkiye First!" macho tough guy for his domestic base long enough.

[Torrain]

It wouldn't be European diplomacy without some toothless sabre-rattling that's easily solved by a hurried closed door deal.

It's one of our oldest traditions.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

Erdogan's biggest prize: https://twitter.com/nickschifrin/status/1542093892346077184

[Woody]

And just like that, everyone that was screaming about Trump abandoning the Kurds, forgot the Kurds..

[Middle-aged Europe]

And just like that, everyone that was screaming about Trump abandoning the Kurds, forgot the Kurds..

That's precisely the music Magdalena Andersson has to face in Sweden right now. Not that you probably care about that since it doesn't happen to be about Trump/Biden.     

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

And just like that, everyone that was screaming about Trump abandoning the Kurds, forgot the Kurds..

Trump definitely abandoned some of the Kurds - but Obama did, too. It's a terrible American tradition. The rhetoric about the YPG in the memorandum is vile, but there's not likely to be much substance to it; so far, I'd say Biden has actually been much less horrible for Kurdish political groups than the average US president (keep in mind that his widely rejected plan for Iraq involved the creation of an independent Kurdish state).

The Kurds may well have been abandoned as a result of this if e.g. a deal to abandon the SDF has been struck behind closed doors, but we've little indication this has happened yet and even if a war happens, it might not be clear that Swedish/Finnish membership was decisive in determining the American stance on such a conflict. I do expect the West to look the other way when Turkey invades Tel Rifaat, but there's not much America could do about that anyway. I guess one guarantee Turkey has gotten is that, if such an invasion occurs, Western allies won't even offer lip service to condemn their actions.

Turkey getting upgraded F-16s will help it a little bit against the Afrin and PKK insurgencies, but their air-to-ground strikes are increasingly dominated by domestic drones rather than expensive jets. Most of the West's support for the Kurds consists of them putting peacekeepers in Kurdish territory that stop a Turkish invasion - if these peacekeepers were removed, the state of Turkey's F-16s would be irrelevant in determining the outcome of any conventional conflict between the SDF and Turkey (the SDF would lose and fall back on an insurgent strategy, if they could).