Should minors who wish to leave their parents' religion be given legal protections?

[John Dule]

None.  They don’t need any more/less protections than kids with “normie” parents have.  The law treats kids equally regardless to their parents’ religion or lack thereof, as it should.  You admittedly disagree. 

Of course the law treats parents equally regardless of their religion. It does not, however, treat parents equally regardless of how they attempt to inflict that religion upon other autonomous individuals (children). Parents already can lose their kids to CPS if they are abusive, and we should broaden our definition of abuse to encompass things like circumcision and coerced speech. It's probably too early for this now, but within the next 50 years as religious belief continues to die out in our society, hopefully an emerging nonbeliever majority will take responsibility for the rights of children whose parents have sadly been subsumed into cults.

[OSR stands with Israel]

None.  They don’t need any more/less protections than kids with “normie” parents have.  The law treats kids equally regardless to their parents’ religion or lack thereof, as it should.  You admittedly disagree. 

Of course the law treats parents equally regardless of their religion. It does not, however, treat parents equally regardless of how they attempt to inflict that religion upon other autonomous individuals (children). Parents already can lose their kids to CPS if they are abusive, and we should broaden our definition of abuse to encompass things like circumcision and coerced speech. It's probably too early for this now, but within the next 50 years as religious belief continues to die out in our society, hopefully an emerging nonbeliever majority will take responsibility for the rights of children whose parents have sadly been subsumed into cults.

Honestly the fact you support such government intrusion into people’s lives means you really shouldn’t call your self a libertarian cause you are not .


The government deciding what is or what is not good for your kids , what values should be or not be taught to your kid is authoritarianism 101 and frankly communist so please stop 

[fhtagn]

some nonsense

Not sure why you decided to turn this discussion into a "gay people are pedophiles" rant, but thanks for derailing the conversation.

I never said anything about gay people being pedophiles. It suggests far more about you and your assumptions to come to that conclusion in response to what I said. Perhaps you aren't the ally you pretend to be.

[John Dule]

None.  They don’t need any more/less protections than kids with “normie” parents have.  The law treats kids equally regardless to their parents’ religion or lack thereof, as it should.  You admittedly disagree. 

Of course the law treats parents equally regardless of their religion. It does not, however, treat parents equally regardless of how they attempt to inflict that religion upon other autonomous individuals (children). Parents already can lose their kids to CPS if they are abusive, and we should broaden our definition of abuse to encompass things like circumcision and coerced speech. It's probably too early for this now, but within the next 50 years as religious belief continues to die out in our society, hopefully an emerging nonbeliever majority will take responsibility for the rights of children whose parents have sadly been subsumed into cults.

Honestly the fact you support such government intrusion into people’s lives means you really shouldn’t call your self a libertarian cause you are not .


The government deciding what is or what is not good for your kids , what values should be or not be taught to your kid is authoritarianism 101 and frankly communist so please stop 

I'm sorry that I don't support your right to mutilate another person's genitals with impunity. I will try to be better in the future.

[afleitch]

Yes, they should. Religious indoctrination is child abuse.

Pls define what you think indoctrination is

indoctrination: the process of teaching someone to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

religious indoctrination would mean the process of teaching someone to accept a set of religious beliefs uncritically

Forcing your kid to go to church against their wishes would fit this definition.

     If my child decides that he does not want to go to science class because he believes the Earth is flat and evolution is false, is it indoctrination for me to force him to go anyway?

'Science class in public school' does not equal 'parent forcing child to remain in parents faith'.

Unless you want a 'school board' established to oversee your family unit.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Yes, they should. Religious indoctrination is child abuse.

Pls define what you think indoctrination is

indoctrination: the process of teaching someone to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

religious indoctrination would mean the process of teaching someone to accept a set of religious beliefs uncritically

Forcing your kid to go to church against their wishes would fit this definition.

     If my child decides that he does not want to go to science class because he believes the Earth is flat and evolution is false, is it indoctrination for me to force him to go anyway?

'Science class in public school' does not equal 'parent forcing child to remain in parents faith'.

Unless you want a 'school board' established to oversee your family unit.

     So is your contention that indoctrination becomes acceptable once the position in question is backed by the state?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Let’s make this clear , there are already legal protections for this . A parent cannot hurt their child , they cannot refuse to provide for them to try to make them go to their place of religious worship with them .


The most they can do is ground the child or spank them so yah

[John Dule]

Let’s make this clear , there are already legal protections for this . A parent cannot hurt their child , they cannot refuse to provide for them to try to make them go to their place of religious worship with them .


The most they can do is ground the child or spank them so yah

And the question at hand in this thread is "Should those protections remain in place?" Apparently some people do not think so, which is deeply disturbing.

[afleitch]

Yes, they should. Religious indoctrination is child abuse.

Pls define what you think indoctrination is

indoctrination: the process of teaching someone to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

religious indoctrination would mean the process of teaching someone to accept a set of religious beliefs uncritically

Forcing your kid to go to church against their wishes would fit this definition.

     If my child decides that he does not want to go to science class because he believes the Earth is flat and evolution is false, is it indoctrination for me to force him to go anyway?

'Science class in public school' does not equal 'parent forcing child to remain in parents faith'.

Unless you want a 'school board' established to oversee your family unit.

     So is your contention that indoctrination becomes acceptable once the position in question is backed by the state?

No. My position is 'indoctrination' by the state, in the state education system is accountable to the public. As you know.

'Indoctrination' in the family unit should not be unaccountable, particularly in matters of personal belief where a child does not acquiesce to the family unit's belief system and wishes to express its belief contrary to that.

[Alcibiades]

Yes, they should. Religious indoctrination is child abuse.

Pls define what you think indoctrination is

Forcing religion on their child, which seems to be like 95% of "Christians" in this country. Idk how someone can think that's ok. I hope you learn one day to overcome your indoctrination.

Part of a job of a parents is to pass on their values to their kids

What if the parents were neo-Nazis or, and I’m sure you would be especially concerned about this, communists?

[Associate Justice PiT]

Yes, they should. Religious indoctrination is child abuse.

Pls define what you think indoctrination is

indoctrination: the process of teaching someone to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

religious indoctrination would mean the process of teaching someone to accept a set of religious beliefs uncritically

Forcing your kid to go to church against their wishes would fit this definition.

     If my child decides that he does not want to go to science class because he believes the Earth is flat and evolution is false, is it indoctrination for me to force him to go anyway?

'Science class in public school' does not equal 'parent forcing child to remain in parents faith'.

Unless you want a 'school board' established to oversee your family unit.

     So is your contention that indoctrination becomes acceptable once the position in question is backed by the state?

No. My position is 'indoctrination' by the state, in the state education system is accountable to the public. As you know.

'Indoctrination' in the family unit should not be unaccountable, particularly in matters of personal belief where a child does not acquiesce to the family unit's belief system and wishes to express its belief contrary to that.

     I don't see why the person who is being asked to uncritically accept a set of beliefs they do not choose to hold to would care if the organ teaching them these beliefs is accountable to the public. In the end it is still forcing beliefs on someone who rejects them, which is indoctrination per Ferguson's definition.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

"Should we ban religion?" phrased yet another way. No. And it won't ever happen in the United States because even most secular Americans aren't as driven by the issue as Atlas internet warriors.

[John Dule]

"Should we ban religion?" phrased yet another way. No. And it won't ever happen in the United States because even most secular Americans aren't as driven by the issue as Atlas internet warriors.

It sounds like you're admitting that religion wouldn't be able to perpetuate itself if believers didn't brainwash their kids from birth.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

"Should we ban religion?" phrased yet another way. No. And it won't ever happen in the United States because even most secular Americans aren't as driven by the issue as Atlas internet warriors.

It sounds like you're admitting that religion wouldn't be able to perpetuate itself if believers didn't brainwash their kids from birth.

No, I'm implying that you cannot have religious liberty if parents are not allowed to raise their children according to their values, not someone else's and definitely not the state's by coercion. Which is usually something libertarians don't like. Pity that I guess.

[John Dule]

"Should we ban religion?" phrased yet another way. No. And it won't ever happen in the United States because even most secular Americans aren't as driven by the issue as Atlas internet warriors.

It sounds like you're admitting that religion wouldn't be able to perpetuate itself if believers didn't brainwash their kids from birth.

No, I'm implying that you cannot have religious liberty if parents are not allowed to raise their children according to their values, not someone else's and definitely not the state's by coercion. Which is usually something libertarians don't like. Pity that I guess.

I care about religious liberty for all individuals-- which includes children.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

"Should we ban religion?" phrased yet another way. No. And it won't ever happen in the United States because even most secular Americans aren't as driven by the issue as Atlas internet warriors.

It sounds like you're admitting that religion wouldn't be able to perpetuate itself if believers didn't brainwash their kids from birth.

No, I'm implying that you cannot have religious liberty if parents are not allowed to raise their children according to their values, not someone else's and definitely not the state's by coercion. Which is usually something libertarians don't like. Pity that I guess.

I care about religious liberty for all individuals-- which includes children.

Religious freedom includes expression, which for all intents and purposes is actually living by your religion. That protection covers child-rearing. This, and the fact that the opinion of the parent or parents outweighs that of the child's, have been commonly understood for a long time.

[John Dule]

"Should we ban religion?" phrased yet another way. No. And it won't ever happen in the United States because even most secular Americans aren't as driven by the issue as Atlas internet warriors.

It sounds like you're admitting that religion wouldn't be able to perpetuate itself if believers didn't brainwash their kids from birth.

No, I'm implying that you cannot have religious liberty if parents are not allowed to raise their children according to their values, not someone else's and definitely not the state's by coercion. Which is usually something libertarians don't like. Pity that I guess.

I care about religious liberty for all individuals-- which includes children.

Religious freedom includes expression, which for all intents and purposes is actually living by your religion. That protection covers child-rearing. This, and the fact that the opinion of the parent or parents outweighs that of the child's, have been commonly understood for a long time.

Fortunately, the many things we've "understood for a long time" have been reconsidered and rightfully discarded in the past 250 years, and this will be another in a long line of feudal practices that will go the way of the dodo someday-- along with serfdom and polygamy. The fact that we allow the most vulnerable members of our society to be indoctrinated, mutilated, and frightened into submission by their cult member parents is deeply saddening to me. However, I agree that the time is not yet ripe to take action about it.

[°Leprechaun]

In my opinion, for what it's worth..
If something is true, the evidence for it should be given. If this was done, there would be no need for indoctrination. Teaching a child what to think seems bad. Wouldn't it be better to teach them how to think?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Dule really has let his hatred of religion absolutely shred his libertarianism

[fhtagn]

Dule really has let his hatred of religion absolutely shred his libertarianism

Libertarianism is very rarely something people stay in, it's just a pit stop on whichever direction they're headed. Perhaps we are just seeing the weird transition phase.

[John Dule]

Dule really has let his hatred of religion absolutely shred his libertarianism

My bad, I forgot that libertarianism requires me to view minors as less-than-human and undeserving of basic rights and freedoms.

[John Dule]

oh no you're not letting me cut the tip of my son's dick off against his will and then have an old man suck the blood away, what is this, stalinist russia

[John Dule]

i told my daughter she was going to hell for being a lesbian and now cps has taken her away from me, why am i being persecuted like this

[fhtagn]

Dule really has let his hatred of religion absolutely shred his libertarianism

My bad, I forgot that libertarianism requires me to view minors as less-than-human and undeserving of basic rights and freedoms.

Seems a bit odd that you're holding this position that parents are in no place to have a say in things their children can or cannot do at any point in their lives. It sounds great and all until you get to the stereotypical libertarian meme:




Are you willing to admit that parents have every right to tell their kids having sex with an adult is not okay and is not allowed, or do you believe children have the right to engage in those acts and the parents should have CPS come after them for telling them otherwise?

[John Dule]

Dule really has let his hatred of religion absolutely shred his libertarianism

My bad, I forgot that libertarianism requires me to view minors as less-than-human and undeserving of basic rights and freedoms.

Seems a bit odd that you're holding this position that parents are in no place to have a say in things their children can or cannot do at any point in their lives. It sounds great and all until you get to the stereotypical libertarian meme:

Are you willing to admit that parents have every right to tell their kids having sex with an adult is not okay and is not allowed, or do you believe children have the right to engage in those acts and the parents should have CPS come after them for telling them otherwise?

Parents can tell kids whatever they want. What I'm saying is that if their children are not receptive to those ideas, and they decide to then create a hostile home environment in an attempt to force their beliefs on their kids, CPS should get involved. I don't think this is too controversial of a position.