British Teens the Worst Behaved in Europe

[Bono]

www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20697445-2703,00.html

Britain's Lord of the Flies generation
Peter Wilson, Europe correspondent
November 04, 2006
BRITISH teenagers are the worst-behaved in Europe and young Australians share many of their anti-social characteristics, according to a major study of youth behaviour.

On every indicator of problem behaviour ranging from drug and alcohol abuse to crime, sexual disease and self-harm, young Britons are at or near the bottom of the European table, according to analysis by one of Britain's most influential think tanks, the Institute for Public Policy Research.

Julia Margo, a research fellow at the centre-left institute, said the study of dozens of research projects on teenage behaviour had been mainly focused on British teens but it had also found that Australian youths "were not that different" to teenagers in Britain, where politicians and community leaders have become increasingly worried about the rise of antisocial behaviour among the young.

"Australians crop up a lot at the bottom end of the spectrum of youth behaviour and the similarities with Britain are probably because there are a lot of cultural and social similarities," she said.

In both countries there was not enough interaction between adults and teenagers, so teenagers were left to learn their social skills from each other, a child-raising system that had more in common with William Golding's novel Lord of the Flies than with a properly functioning society, Ms Margo said.

The research showed that British teens were the least likely in Europe to share meals with their parents and the most likely to spend a lot of time hanging out with friends.

Without the strong focus on family and church that is found in southern Europe, or the Scandinavian preference for a large welfare state and a strong sense of civic duty, British teenagers spent less time with adults.

The Conservative Party said yesterday the problems in British youth culture had reached the point where non-custodial penalties called anti-social behaviour orders - or "asbos" - which are imposed for vandalism and other low-level crime, had become a badge of honour for many teenagers.

Asbos were introduced by the Blair Government in 1999 to battle what much of the British public sees as an epidemic of public disorder, often involving "hoodies" - youths wearing hooded jackets.

A group of 16-year-olds on the Highgrove public housing estate in north London agreed yesterday that youth behaviour in Britain was deteriorating and thatmany teenagers saw an asbo as something of a status symbol.

Even while Marcus, the most articulate member of the group, insisted to The Weekend Australian that "an asbo is nothing to be proud of", his friend Andrew kept interrupting to boast that he had had one of the social orders imposed on him and he was breaching it by visiting the estate. While Andrew proudly prattled on in gangsta slang resembling the diction of comedy character Ali G, his friends said the IPPR's conclusions about the parlous state of British youth culture seemed right to them.

"People get stabbed every day and it is people our age who get stabbed," said Marcus, who was standing about 5m from where a young man was stabbed to death a month ago.

"You don't hear about it happening that much in other countries. It (the problem) is not about drugs and unemployment, it's about gangs and people hanging together to feel safe."

Youth unemployment and child poverty are commonly blamed as causes of problem behaviour, but both have fallen dramatically in Britain under the Blair Government.

According to Ms Margo, those improvements have been outweighed by an increasing gap in social skills between those youths who spend a lot of time with adults or in structured sport and leisure activities, and youths who spend their free time hanging about with friends.

"In a less regulated, more service-oriented economy, social skills end up being more important than ever, so if you come from a family background that has already taught you how to interact with people you will get great opportunities, but society as a whole has gotten worse at giving people those skills so it is getting worse for kids who are disadvantaged in that way," she said. "That means we should be supporting the family types that need help the most, like single parents."

Ms Margo said adults in Britain and Australia tended to have a "pub and bar" culture that meant spending much of their leisure time with other adults, whereas countries such as France, Italy and Spain found it more comfortable to have different age groups socialising together -- at least in the same areas.

"Our solution is just to build youth centres where teenagers can hang around with each other doing nothing and learning their social norms in a Lord of the Flies syndrome," she said.

The research found that only 34 per cent of Britons said they would intervene if they saw a group of 14-year-olds vandalising a bus stop, compared with 65 per cent of Germans, 52 per cent of Spanish and 50 per cent of Italians.

[opebo]

Naturally the Anglo-Saxon model of laissez-faire capitalism, extreme inequality, and full State support of the owning class without any recognition of the other 98% of the population will tend to alienate the majority of working-class youth, who have nothing to hope for under this system but a life of unremitting toil and serious scarcity. 

The Continental model, of course, encourages a sense that these youth 'belong' in society by giving them a minor political voice, through real center-left parties, and a higher degree of economic equality and hope for future improvement.

[Bono]

The Continental model, of course, encourages a sense that these youth 'belong' in society by giving them a minor political voice, through real center-left parties, and a higher degree of economic equality and hope for future improvement.

As proven by the peaceful behaviour of french youth.

[Michael Z]

That's probably true, but to be honest it isn't really news. There's been a debate about this for a while now.

I could state my theories as to why I think this is the case, but suffice to say it would merely turn into an essay. But in a nutshell, I think it has a lot to do with economic- and social policies of the last 25 years, rewarding a form of materialism which then inadvertently leads to a blind hedonism that has completely alleviated any sense of social cohesion. Or something. I wish I could articulate this in a way that doesn't make me look like a pompous prat, but there you are.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Naturally the Anglo-Saxon model of laissez-faire capitalism, extreme inequality, and full State support of the owning class without any recognition of the other 98% of the population will tend to alienate the majority of working-class youth, who have nothing to hope for under this system but a life of unremitting toil and serious scarcity. 

The Continental model, of course, encourages a sense that these youth 'belong' in society by giving them a minor political voice, through real center-left parties, and a higher degree of economic equality and hope for future improvement.

Congratulations on demonstrating your complete and utter ignorance of how the British economy and welfare systems are structured (I won't go into your amusing assertion about a mythical "Continental model"...).

Stop thinking in mindless stereotypes and stupid assumptions and maybe, just maybe, people will actually debate seriously with you for a change.

(Btw, if you had just mentioned quite how rigid the class system is in Britain and claimed that that was the reason, I wouldn't mind. In this case it would be innaccurate (the rich get pissed as often as the working class), but it is at the root of most social ills in this country. Class barriers are not as strong as they were before 1945, but they are still strong).

---
As to the survey thing; no suprise. The problem is entirely due to the binge drinking culture... it's always been there, but it had kind of faded away from the First World War onwards, only to re-emerge in recent decades.

Some government minister (forget who) recently proposed increasing duties on alcohol, btw.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

But in a nutshell, I think it has a lot to do with economic- and social policies of the last 25 years, rewarding a form of materialism which then inadvertently leads to a blind hedonism that has completely alleviated any sense of social cohesion.

I would say that economic and social policies carried out over only a few years in the early '80's (especially the sacrifice of the manufacturing industries on the altar of voodoo economics) are at least responsible for triggering off the problem. Most social policies pursued since then haven't been especially harmful, while the extremely damaging economic policies of the late '80's and early '90's are very unlikely to have had much of an effect on this sort of thing (they had a nasty impact on public trust in politics though).
The important thing to remember is that this drinking culture was only just below the surface of society anyway; there was always a threat of it re-emerging at some point.

[afleitch]

While I agree with Al's sentiments; to end the 'timeline' just as Labour achieves power neglects Labour's own record. It has to be remembered that a 15 year old youth with an ASBO was 6 when Labour came to power and the escalation of youth crime while not the direct fault of any single government has not been dealt with effecvtively by the current adminstration.

To be fair to the current generation of youths, they have often been unfairly targeted and stigmatised by this current government and in particularly the media. It is often ignored that the victims of youth crime tend to be youths themselves and secondly that the current baby-boom generation have a very short memory when it comes to their own wayward behaviour a few decades previously!

To be honest it's all down to bad parenting. Good parents in the most woeful of economic or family situations can raise good kids. Bad parents with money raise bad kids.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

While I agree with Al's sentiments; to end the 'timeline' just as Labour achieves power neglects Labour's own record. It has to be remembered that a 15 year old youth with an ASBO was 6 when Labour came to power and the escalation of youth crime while not the direct fault of any single government has not been dealt with effecvtively by the current adminstration.

Actually I ended it c. 1993 or so

The record of both the Major and Blair governments in this area have been poor; Major didn't seem to be aware that there was a problem, while Blair has gone down completely the wrong road in trying to deal with it. What could be called the ASBO approach hasn't (contrary to liberal thinking) made things any worse, but it's not really made things much better either. As a short-term measure, ASBO's are not really a bad idea (if a little on the authoritarian end of things for my taste), but a short-term measure is not an effective subsitute for a solution to a solvable problem. But that's Blair (at his worst) all over for you.
O/c none of the other parties have much to offer in this area; Cameron has come out with a load of PR hot air (the real purpose of which seems to be to steal away LibDem votes in affluent areas; and it seems to be working very well), while all you get from the LibDems is a load of hand-wringing liberal nonsense. Oh and "tough liberalism" from Mark Oaten. Ahem. Ahem. Ahem.

This is also, unusually, an area that the Labour Left (in all it's ever diverse forms) has avoided like the plauge... the assumption seems to be that it's the territory of the Labour Right and as such should be avoided, something that is IMO foolish... yeah, I can criticize my side as well

The general lack of ideas on this subject is quite strange.

[Bono]

No one has mentioned the erosion of religion, but I will point this out as a great cause of these troubles.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

No one has mentioned the erosion of religion, but I will point this out as a great cause of these troubles.

The dates don't fit. The final decline of orthodox religion here was, more or less, complete by the late 1970's (and probably a little earlier). Binge drinking started to boom (if that's the correct word) from the mid 1980's or so.

Besides, Anglicanism has never had any problems with alcoholism... at the height of alcohol abuse in Britain (18th and early 19th centuries. You think we're bad today? Jesus...), England was far more Anglican in it's culture and so on than it is today.
Nonconformity did (and does) have it's issues with alcohol, but it's great decline (as an organised force) was in the early half of the twentieth century.

[Bono]

No one has mentioned the erosion of religion, but I will point this out as a great cause of these troubles.

The dates don't fit. The final decline of orthodox religion here was, more or less, complete by the late 1970's (and probably a little earlier). Binge drinking started to boom (if that's the correct word) from the mid 1980's or so.

Besides, Anglicanism has never had any problems with alcoholism... at the height of alcohol abuse in Britain (18th and early 19th centuries. You think we're bad today? Jesus...), England was far more Anglican in it's culture and so on than it is today.
Nonconformity did (and does) have it's issues with alcohol, but it's great decline (as an organised force) was in the early half of the twentieth century.

FInal being the keyword. THat means there was strong antecedents. Thus By the mid 80s, the first fruits of the godless generation were entering teenage years and starting to drink.
The United Kingdom needs a new Great Awakening.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

I find the influence of organized religion on society to be negative so I disagree. Its a shame the brits settled the US with a population prone to great awakenings(the puritans).

[Bono]

I find the influence of organized religion on society to be negative so I disagree. Its a shame the brits settled the US with a population prone to great awakenings(the puritans).

I find your influence on society to be negative. Maybe we should send you to a concentration camp.

[Michael Z]

No one has mentioned the erosion of religion, but I will point this out as a great cause of these troubles.

That's a good point, but I actually think this is also a result of the materialism I was speaking of. People no longer worship God, they now worship Mammon instead (as well as everything else it brings, like possesions etc - heck, even in relationships people have become materialistic, witness the way sex is now treated as a mere commodity).

[Gustaf]

No one has mentioned the erosion of religion, but I will point this out as a great cause of these troubles.

That's a good point, but I actually think this is also a result of the materialism I was speaking of. People no longer worship God, they now worship Mammon instead (as well as everything else it brings, like possesions etc - heck, even in relationships people have become materialistic, witness the way sex is now treated as a mere commodity).

Not to be a jerk, but as far as I can see the two of you are making the exact same point, only stating it differently...

I guess individualism just doesn't work very well for all  people.

[afleitch]

FInal being the keyword. THat means there was strong antecedents. Thus By the mid 80s, the first fruits of the godless generation were entering teenage years and starting to drink.
The United Kingdom needs a new Great Awakening.

The Great Awakening was the decline of the influence of religion.

[Bono]

FInal being the keyword. THat means there was strong antecedents. Thus By the mid 80s, the first fruits of the godless generation were entering teenage years and starting to drink.
The United Kingdom needs a new Great Awakening.

The Great Awakening was the decline of the influence of religion.

Which great awakening are you refering to?

[afleitch]

FInal being the keyword. THat means there was strong antecedents. Thus By the mid 80s, the first fruits of the godless generation were entering teenage years and starting to drink.
The United Kingdom needs a new Great Awakening.

The Great Awakening was the decline of the influence of religion.

Which great awakening are you refering to?

The post-war era and the liberalisation of society

[Colin]

Bono your recent rise in religiousness is worrying. Have you now completely left individualism? Do you no longer believe in the individual as the basis of society? Have you become nothing more than another man of great religion who believes that if we just all hunkered down with our families and went to church every Sunday we would be a-okay?

[Bono]

FInal being the keyword. THat means there was strong antecedents. Thus By the mid 80s, the first fruits of the godless generation were entering teenage years and starting to drink.
The United Kingdom needs a new Great Awakening.

The Great Awakening was the decline of the influence of religion.

Which great awakening are you refering to?

The post-war era and the liberalisation of society

The fourth great awakening is a myth.

[Bono]

Bono your recent rise in religiousness is worrying. Have you now completely left individualism? Do you no longer believe in the individual as the basis of society? Have you become nothing more than another man of great religion who believes that if we just all hunkered down with our families and went to church every Sunday we would be a-okay?

I don't know how religion equals colectivism. maybe you're too stuck in your romanist conception of religion.
I do think that with the lawlessness of this generation, Britain is reaping what it has sown for turning its back on the Lord.
My political positions remain the same.

[afleitch]

I do think that with the lawlessness of this generation, Britain is reaping what it has sown for turning its back on the Lord.

So what do you want us to do about it jmf...Bono? What laws would you wish to see overturned?

[Bono]

I do think that with the lawlessness of this generation, Britain is reaping what it has sown for turning its back on the Lord.

So what do you want us to do about it jmf...Bono? What laws would you wish to see overturned?

What laws. This isn't a problem for the state--however, it would help to get rid of the ridiculous restrictions on bars hours.
That is an issue for preachers, and in that field, the church of England and the church of Scotland are complete failures. Of course, this may be due to the fact that they are more NGOs than churches, and are more concered about "helping the world" than in saving souls.

[afleitch]

I do think that with the lawlessness of this generation, Britain is reaping what it has sown for turning its back on the Lord.

So what do you want us to do about it jmf...Bono? What laws would you wish to see overturned?

What laws. This isn't a problem for the state--however, it would help to get rid of the ridiculous restrictions on bars hours.
That is an issue for preachers, and in that field, the church of England and the church of Scotland are complete failures. Of course, this may be due to the fact that they are more NGOs than churches, and are more concered about "helping the world" than in saving souls.

The Moderator of the CofS is going to push for gay marriage recognition within the kirk according to reports today while we're on the subject.

Of course some genuinely don't pre occupy themselves with 'saving souls' because they believe in predestination so are concerned with the welbeing of people while on earth (which also results in them not becoming heartless b-stards)

[Colin]

Bono your recent rise in religiousness is worrying. Have you now completely left individualism? Do you no longer believe in the individual as the basis of society? Have you become nothing more than another man of great religion who believes that if we just all hunkered down with our families and went to church every Sunday we would be a-okay?

I don't know how religion equals colectivism. maybe you're too stuck in your romanist conception of religion.
I do think that with the lawlessness of this generation, Britain is reaping what it has sown for turning its back on the Lord.
My political positions remain the same.

I have never encountered a fundamentalist religion that is individualistic. Yes some "religions" like Unitarian Universalism are individualist but really that are neither very religious nor very Christian. Christianity is a communal and collectivist enterprise. It is a belief that makes those who ascrib to the teachings of a certian church or group believe fully or mostly in the beliefs of that group, especially within Protestant sects because of their great number of groups of mostly low numbers.

By your own beliefs not everyone can be part of the elect and thus be saved by God so what does Godlessness, in your view, have to do with lawlessness? Personally I believe that lawlessness and Godliness are in no way related except that religion can sometimes act as a way of social control the same way that stronger family ties or a motivation to succeed can.

Well it seems to me that your positions have become much more coloured by your religion in the recent months. Just my opinion though I do truely believe that you still somehow believe in the goodness of the individual and the other libertarian principals that you so highly ascribed before.