Why The Invasion of Iraq is not morally comparable to a potential Russian invasion of Ukraine

[OSR stands with Israel]

This is a dumb talking point given the US didnt go in to steal territory like Russia is trying to do with Ukraine . Also as bad as the current Iraqi government is it does represent the people of Iraq more than Suddam Hussain ever did.

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

This is a dumb talking point given the US didnt go in to steal territory like Russia is trying to do with Ukraine . Also as bad as the current Iraqi government is it does represent the people of Iraq more than Suddam Hussain ever did.

It's a complicated issue, but this much is true.  The matters are not comparable.

[7,052,770]

I don't even know if that's supposed to be a pro-Russia argument from Trumpists or a pro-Ukraine argument from liberals, but either way, the 2 situations just aren't comparable.

[OSR stands with Israel]

I don't even know if that's supposed to be a pro-Russia argument from Trumpists or a pro-Ukraine argument from liberals, but either way, the 2 situations just aren't comparable.

You seem many "populists" on both sides of the isle argue this

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

There's no question that the Iraq war greatly weakened America's moral position here.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

[It’s so Joever]

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

So edge.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

So edge.

If by 'edge' you mean an obvious fact, then I suppose so.

[DrScholl]

Both are wrong, but the Iraq War was worse for a number of reasons.

[John Dule]

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

Literally nobody thinks "the US can do no wrong."

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

Literally nobody thinks "the US can do no wrong."

Uh, literally that's what American Exceptionalism is all about? And OSR trying to hold up Iraq as some moral success compared to the (comparatively) milquetoast Russian saber rattling in Ukraine is just insane. Iraq was many, many more times costly to humanity in terms of the human cost, financial cost and the continuing cost to regional stability in the Middle East.

Unless Putin decides to forcefully foist an occupation government on Ukraine, including the central regions and the West, and continue to occupy them for over a decade, then it's highly unlikely we're going to see even close to the devastation and world-spanning instability that the Iraq War caused.

[John Dule]

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

Literally nobody thinks "the US can do no wrong."

Uh, literally that's what American Exceptionalism is all about?

American Exceptionalism posits that America is unique among nations. It doesn't say it can "do no wrong."

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

Literally nobody thinks "the US can do no wrong."

Uh, literally that's what American Exceptionalism is all about?

American Exceptionalism posits that America is unique among nations. It doesn't say it can "do no wrong."

Lol, you're being intentionally pedantic. The people who believe in American Exceptionalism indeed do tend to justify horrible things that America does while decrying the exact or similar behavior in other nations. If you aren't going to address the actual substance of the argument, which is simply the factual cost analysis of the Iraq War Vs. Russian aggression in Ukraine, then I don't see any point in continuing this conversation with you.

[darklordoftech]

Twitter be like, “But we have to convince tankies to oppose Russia invading Ukraine”.

[John Dule]

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

Literally nobody thinks "the US can do no wrong."

Uh, literally that's what American Exceptionalism is all about?

American Exceptionalism posits that America is unique among nations. It doesn't say it can "do no wrong."

Lol, you're being intentionally pedantic. The people who believe in American Exceptionalism indeed do tend to justify horrible things that America does while decrying the exact or similar behavior in other nations. If you aren't going to address the actual substance of the argument, which is simply the factual cost analysis of the Iraq War Vs. Russian aggression in Ukraine, then I don't see any point in continuing this conversation with you.

If you want people to address the substance of your argument, you should stop inventing ridiculous strawmen around which to structure your claims.

[OSR stands with Israel]

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

Literally nobody thinks "the US can do no wrong."

Uh, literally that's what American Exceptionalism is all about? And OSR trying to hold up Iraq as some moral success compared to the (comparatively) milquetoast Russian saber rattling in Ukraine is just insane. Iraq was many, many more times costly to humanity in terms of the human cost, financial cost and the continuing cost to regional stability in the Middle East.

Unless Putin decides to forcefully foist an occupation government on Ukraine, including the central regions and the West, and continue to occupy them for over a decade, then it's highly unlikely we're going to see even close to the devastation and world-spanning instability that the Iraq War caused.

We didn’t invade Iraq for territorial reasons and our goal wasn’t to impose an American puppet dictatorship there either like Russia wants to do in Ukraine .


Also it’s ridiculous to act like the US is to blame for all the devastation in Iraq given how many people Suddam killed under his reign . Also most of the deaths in Iraq were caused by the Iraqi insurgency, who in many cases were former members of Suddam’s military  and then later on much of ISIS was led by former Suddam’s Republican Guard

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

Literally nobody thinks "the US can do no wrong."

Uh, literally that's what American Exceptionalism is all about?

American Exceptionalism posits that America is unique among nations. It doesn't say it can "do no wrong."

Lol, you're being intentionally pedantic. The people who believe in American Exceptionalism indeed do tend to justify horrible things that America does while decrying the exact or similar behavior in other nations. If you aren't going to address the actual substance of the argument, which is simply the factual cost analysis of the Iraq War Vs. Russian aggression in Ukraine, then I don't see any point in continuing this conversation with you.

If you want people to address the substance of your argument, you should stop inventing ridiculous strawmen around which to structure your claims.

What straw man? OSR's claim is that Iraq was somehow morally justifiable vis a vis Ukraine cause America wasn't overtly going in for any territorial claims but instead just wasted trillions of dollars on making a bad situation worse and effectively ruined the lives of millions in the region for decades who by and large when asked their opinions say that life was better before American intervention and don't want us there. You can't just shout straw man cause you realize that Iraq was in economic and human cost many, many times worse than what's currently going on in Ukraine, and once again, that's just a fact that isn't up for debate.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

Literally nobody thinks "the US can do no wrong."

Uh, literally that's what American Exceptionalism is all about? And OSR trying to hold up Iraq as some moral success compared to the (comparatively) milquetoast Russian saber rattling in Ukraine is just insane. Iraq was many, many more times costly to humanity in terms of the human cost, financial cost and the continuing cost to regional stability in the Middle East.

Unless Putin decides to forcefully foist an occupation government on Ukraine, including the central regions and the West, and continue to occupy them for over a decade, then it's highly unlikely we're going to see even close to the devastation and world-spanning instability that the Iraq War caused.

We didn’t invade Iraq for territorial reasons and our goal wasn’t to impose an American puppet dictatorship there either like Russia wants to do in Ukraine .


Also it’s ridiculous to act like the US is to blame for all the devastation in Iraq given how many people Suddam killed under his reign . Also most of the deaths in Iraq were caused by the Iraqi insurgency, who in many cases were former members of Suddam’s military  and then later on much of ISIS was led by former Suddam’s Republican Guard

The rise of ISIS and much of the problems in the Middle-East are a direct result of our botched invasion of Iraq. That simply isn't in dispute from any reputable Middle East observer. No one is trying to defend Saddam, but if you actually look at polling most Iraqi's and actual people who live in the region generally agree that American intervention was for the worse and I don't think that's up for debate on either side of the aisle at this point considering most American's view it as the 21st century version of Vietnam. Modern imperialism is still imperialism and my stance is simply that 1.) We should be focused on our own people and citizens first and 2.) In total human and economic cost the invasion of Iraq and it's ripple effects have been many magnitudes more damaging than the current situation in Ukraine. When/If Putin decides to invade and actually occupy the Central and Western regions of the country for a decade, as I said, I may revise that opinion, but for now, your quasi-justifications of the Iraq war versus what's going on in the Ukraine fall flat on their face.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

For the record, I think a (hopefully only hypothetical) Russian invasion of Ukraine under Putin and the United States' invasion of Iraq are comparable, but not identical. The behavior of the aggressors (US & Russia) has been very similar: existing grudge towards the victim nation for daring to defy them, an ongoing conflict, a long build-up of overwhelming force, pro-forma attempts at diplomacy that don't appear to have been conducted in good faith, blatant propaganda to try and justify themselves.

The chief difference is that Ukraine has a elected, representative government, while Iraq was a murderous autocracy. And that's a pretty damned big difference. That doesn't make what the United States did right, but it does make what Putin's government appears to be planning much worse. The invasion of Iraq was not justified, and had a terrible cost, but it is quite reasonable to claim that Iraq has a better government as a result. (Whether or not that result was worth it is a lot more complicated, but I lean towards probably not, for anyone except Iran.)

Absolutely none of which excuses the deplorable, irrational attempt to downplay how awful a Russian-invasion of Ukraine would be, while brushing aside the already high cost paid by the people of Ukraine (and many Russians, too) for Putin's years-long attacks on Ukraine.  War is always terrible. If you look at recent history, the Russian military has demonstrate much bloodier and even less civilian-friendly standard of engagement than has the American military (which itself is far from good record). And the Russians have already spent much of their stock of precision munitions in Putin's years-long adventure in Syria; if it comes to all-out war, they're going to be leveling large cities and it's going to be more horrible than I can really imagine. 

The Iraq War was a screw-up of epic, nation-wrecking proportions. It cost everyone affected a great deal, including many lives and America's moral standing. But let's not carry Putin's war water for him. That the United States made an awful mistake doesn't give anyone else license to do the same thing, only worse.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

-snip-

The Iraq War was a screw-up of epic, nation-wrecking proportions. It cost everyone affected a great deal, including many lives and America's moral standing. But let's not carry Putin's war water for him. That the United States made an awful mistake doesn't give anyone else license to do the same thing, only worse.

100% agreed. And I am firmly opposed to Russian aggression in Ukraine. But the fact remains that at this current point the two situations aren't even remotely comparable and Iraq remains the pre-eminent foreign policy and humanitarian blunder of any nation in the 21st century and America is hypocritical cause while you're 100% correct about the Iraqi government being a murderous, authoritarian dictatorship it isn't like the US has always respected the Democratic decisions or popular will of foreign nations either, particularly when it's been opposed to our own interest's in said countries. And I refuse to let these Neocon's and Liberals LARP as though the US is some great defender of democracy, give me a break.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Saddam Hussein was simply ordering 'Geraniums' from Africa.

Simple mix up.

[John Dule]

You're right, the Iraq War has caused many times more damage than any potential invasion of Ukraine, particularly a limited incursion into the east, would cause. Drop the American exceptionalism BS, just because you believe the US can do no wrong doesn't mean our sh**t don't stink and at the end of the day, the US has acted every bit as much as an imperialist power in the past as Russia is doing today.

Literally nobody thinks "the US can do no wrong."

Uh, literally that's what American Exceptionalism is all about?

American Exceptionalism posits that America is unique among nations. It doesn't say it can "do no wrong."

Lol, you're being intentionally pedantic. The people who believe in American Exceptionalism indeed do tend to justify horrible things that America does while decrying the exact or similar behavior in other nations. If you aren't going to address the actual substance of the argument, which is simply the factual cost analysis of the Iraq War Vs. Russian aggression in Ukraine, then I don't see any point in continuing this conversation with you.

If you want people to address the substance of your argument, you should stop inventing ridiculous strawmen around which to structure your claims.

What straw man? OSR's claim is that Iraq was somehow morally justifiable vis a vis Ukraine cause America wasn't overtly going in for any territorial claims but instead just wasted trillions of dollars on making a bad situation worse and effectively ruined the lives of millions in the region for decades who by and large when asked their opinions say that life was better before American intervention and don't want us there. You can't just shout straw man cause you realize that Iraq was in economic and human cost many, many times worse than what's currently going on in Ukraine, and once again, that's just a fact that isn't up for debate.

I'm not defending the Iraq War. I criticized one specific part of your comment, and I did not address your other claims.