The Muslim Question: Assimilation or Multiculturalism?

[Frodo]

And here's the corresponding article:

Taking on the veil: West looks to assimilation
From Britain to Australia, unease grows over the separateness of many of the West's Muslim communities.

By Mark Rice-Oxley | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

LONDON – Until recently, Rahmanara Chowdhury turned few heads on the street. Shrouded under a full-face Islamic veil, or niqab, she went about her business untroubled. "Occasionally, you get called 'ninja,' but I got used to that," she says.

But in recent weeks, she has noticed a change. "In public, I'm a lot more self-conscious, even intimidated," the native British Muslim adds. Some of her fellow niqabis, a growing sisterhood in Britain, have been threatened or abused. "All the feedback," she says, "seems to be really negative."

That shift has sprung from a broad debate about whether the niqab - and by extension, a multiculturalism that many see as supporting isolation from mainstream culture - fits in modern Britain.

It's a discussion moving to the fore in wealthy nations, from the Netherlands, Denmark, France, and Germany in Europe to Australia and elsewhere. The longer the cultural dissonance generated by 9/11, the "war on terror," and suicide attacks ensues, the harder it is getting to ignore the semidetached status of Muslim communities.

The big question is how best to propel Muslims toward the mainstream. Carrots are appealing, but don't always work. Sticks risk alienating the very people the authorities are trying to appeal to.

"If you want to get someone involved, don't attack them," says Asghar Bukhari, a leader of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee, which campaigns for greater representation of Britain's 1.8 million Muslims in political life. "That's not going to make them feel ... there's a place for them in society."

Half the world away, Australia is also tending toward the stick to better integrate its 360,000 Muslims, most from the Middle East, who make up 1.5 percent of the population. Almost 1 in 4 Australians was born overseas, yet multiculturalism is seen in an increasingly negative light. Prime Minister John Howard, has spoken of moving away from "zealous multiculturalism" toward a reassertion of Australia's national identity.

"Multiculturalism and what it means has been caught up in the uncertain environment we live in," says Sharon Ride, director of the Federation of Ethnic Communities' Councils of Australia. "People have a fear of terrorism, and multiculturalism has got mixed up in all that."

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The Muslim Question? Hmm... that's a phrase that I think I've heard something similer to before... but with a different religious minority. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it and all that. Still, perhaps Marx was right and this time round it'll end in farce.

And yet another article that just throws a mixture of anecdote, misinterpreted debate and opinion together and assumes that the issues in Bradford are the same as in Berlin or Brussels.

And yet another article that would rather talk to a group of fringe nutters (MPAC) than the (small "c") conservatives of the MCB or one of the various Sufi organisations.

The problem is that a lot of people would rather read a load of utter bull about a mythical "Clash of Civilizations" than actually try to understand the problems of integrating minority communities into society; something that the U.S has been as bad at recently as most European countries.

And to answer the question; I would rather have neither. "Multiculturalism" is too vague a concept to become a workable policy, while Assimilation is, to me, a ghastly idea. Would you like to be "assimilated"?
What I would like to see, is greater attempts to integrate minority groups into society, and for a little more respect and understanding on all sides.

[afleitch]

I want neither; I want integration.

[Colin]

The Muslim Question? Hmm... that's a phrase that I think I've heard something similer to before... but with a different religious minority.

Well maybe Britain will come up with a Final Solution pretty soon.

On the issue I have to agree with a mixture of what afleitch and Al said. You shouldn't discriminate people and you shouldn't try to hype up the issue since that just makes things worse. Integration is what all nations with immigrant populations should be shooting for and that is quite different from assimilation. Assimilation means that nothing of the former culture remains, which is actually antithetical to at least the American ideal of immigration. So what is needed, though I can't see how a government can push this along since it must come from within the community, is that immigrants retain parts of their culture in their new country while integrating within the population as a whole and not keeping themselves confined in immigrant ghettos past the first or second generation.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Integration culturally but full assimlation into western memes. This basically means not tolerating attempts to allow sharia law in government, not allowing honor killings and making them unrderstand that men/women are equal.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Integration culturally but full assimlation into western memes. This basically means not tolerating attempts to allow sharia law in government, not allowing honor killings and making them unrderstand that men/women are equal.

Hey, a coherant and logical post from Straha that's actually a good idea!

[Nym90]

I want neither; I want integration.

Exactly. We should have a compromise; a "melting pot" where new cultures take on some of our best traits and we take on some of theirs. Thus both us and them are strengthened by combining the best qualities of each.

[Beet]

[dazzleman]

I want neither; I want integration.

Exactly. We should have a compromise; a "melting pot" where new cultures take on some of our best traits and we take on some of theirs. Thus both us and them are strengthened by combining the best qualities of each.

I generally agree, though I don't see a real difference between integration and assimilation.  I don't think assimilation ever meant that you have to give up every semblance of your historic culture.  I think it's important to say though that the principal burden of adjustment should be on the newcomers, not the larger society that was already there.

I have always thought multiculturalism was a terrible idea.  It's politically correct nonsense that effectively places all the burden of dealing with differences between those already in a society and newcomers on those already there.  It forces the larger society to adjust to the newcomers, rather than the other way around.  It's just another example of the tyranny of the minority that political correctness in general seeks to impose.

[MaC]

They come here, therefore they should embrace our language, values, cutsoms, ect.  Option 1

[John Dibble]

I want neither; I want integration.

Exactly. We should have a compromise; a "melting pot" where new cultures take on some of our best traits and we take on some of theirs. Thus both us and them are strengthened by combining the best qualities of each.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

I want neither; I want integration.

Exactly. We should have a compromise; a "melting pot" where new cultures take on some of our best traits and we take on some of theirs. Thus both us and them are strengthened by combining the best qualities of each.

So you want a half assed situation like how europe has it? That said I have no problem with absorbing new cultural ideas from immigrant cultures. What I am concerned with is preserving liberal democratic western ideas and not letting them get tossed away for replacement by foreign memes like honor killings, enforcing  sharia law and opressing women.

[Michael Z]

Why does it have to be one or the other?

[afleitch]

I want neither; I want integration.

Exactly. We should have a compromise; a "melting pot" where new cultures take on some of our best traits and we take on some of theirs. Thus both us and them are strengthened by combining the best qualities of each.

So you want a half assed situation like how europe has it? That said I have no problem with absorbing new cultural ideas from immigrant cultures. What I am concerned with is preserving liberal democratic western ideas and not letting them get tossed away for replacement by foreign memes like honor killings, enforcing  sharia law and opressing women.

No, integration is a two way street, and which 'side' does the walking varies from town to town and in every part of the country. Honour killings and Sharia law will never be sanctioned by this country, no matter who wants it, and I would join any fight in opposing it.

But what I want to see is a little bit of respect. It is our fault as nation that in not standing up for our values, indeed degrading them for the past few decades, that many of our minorities do too. Those who actually want to fight for them, on both 'sides' were for too long ignored or dismissed (and this goes for Muslims within their own community too)

That is why I wan't to see neither; we have never 'assimilated' each and every culture- we have never and shoud never 'assimilate' Sikh or Hindi culture for example, but they 'get it' - they on the whole understand how the whole system of integration works. In fact as cultures or communities, they rarely press for anything and could probably teach many of their Muslim neighbours a great deal about respect and the value of community (for which I will probably be mauled for suggesting, but never mind)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Honour killings and Sharia law will never be sanctioned by this country, no matter who wants it, and I would join any fight in opposing it.

Just to point out that "Honour" Killings happen within all Asian communities here, not just Muslims (o/c it's not a religious thing at all, but a cultural one). There have been some nasty cases in Southall in recent years.
In general I think the battle against "Honour" Killings is, slowly, being won... but it'll take another generation or so. Support for them (amongst young men) is probably down to around a tenth... much lower than would have been the case even a decade ago.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The main area where levels of integration with Sikhs and Hindus is far better than with Muslims is o/c in London; in a lot of Midlands cities, all three groups are about as concentrated as each other.

An interesting feature of the pattern of integration is how important the policies of local government can be; most of the racial problems in Tower Hamlets can be laid at the doors of the LibDem administration in the late '80's/early '90's and at the autocratic rule of the LDDC over the south of the borough during, roughly, the same period (especially it's tendency to abuse complusory purchase orders), while the problems in the mill towns have a lot to do with racist housing policies of local authorities in the '60's and '70's (and o/c this crossed party lines; (usually) Labour Blackburn was as bad as boroughs usually ruled by Tories or Tory/Liberal alliances).

[Michael Z]

I want neither; I want integration.

Exactly. We should have a compromise; a "melting pot" where new cultures take on some of our best traits and we take on some of theirs. Thus both us and them are strengthened by combining the best qualities of each.

So you want a half assed situation like how europe has it? That said I have no problem with absorbing new cultural ideas from immigrant cultures. What I am concerned with is preserving liberal democratic western ideas and not letting them get tossed away for replacement by foreign memes like honor killings, enforcing  sharia law and opressing women.

No, integration is a two way street, and which 'side' does the walking varies from town to town and in every part of the country. Honour killings and Sharia law will never be sanctioned by this country, no matter who wants it, and I would join any fight in opposing it.

Exactly. Sharia law would never happen because 99% (I hazard the guess) of the country's population would strongly oppose it.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The trouble I see is this - what are British values? Do they differ from Scottish values, or English values? The thing about "Britishness" is that it's actually quite a loose concept, and this is, ironically, what has made it easier for people to integrate and be economically (as well as socially) a part of the country.

In other words, it was actually the very looseness of the concept of "Britishness" that has enabled minorities to settle and to succeed in this country through the centuries. The Hugenauts, the Anglo-Saxons, the Jews, the Irish, Sihks and Hindis, and now Poles and other migrants from eastern Europe. There were, obviously, problems (Jews faced anti-Semitism, the sheer hell the Irish went through has been well-documented), but all in all, they succeeded because they could be themselves while at the same time integrating into a society solely on account of its identity being a rather loose one.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Very true.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'm not sure if Muslims really aren't integrating properly. We could say the veil is not "British". Sharia law and such things are certainly not part of our culture, or any western culture for that matter. But then I don't think Muslims in this country really want sharia law, at least not those who go about their everyday business, going to work and paying their taxes. There are obviously nutters who want this country to turn into an Islamic state, but I see very little difference between them and the BNP, as both are racist fringe groups who should be treated as such. How many Muslims have run a successful business in this country? Quite a few, I should imagine. How many have adjusted well to life in Britain and are an attribute to their community? Equally, quite a few.

The problem I see is this - we are generalising about a great deal of people here whereas we should be taking this case-by-case individually, because as long as Muslims are berated, especially young people, they will feel patronised, thus isolated, and only increase their sense of isolation from the rest of society, which would actually make another 7/7 more likely.