SR 106-09: LouisvilleThunder Resolution (Passed)

[WD]

Nay

[GM Team Member and Senator WB]

Can we get a clarification of how the bill looks with that amendment? It's working with the pre-ishan amendment version so it's unclear whether it's bringing those parts back or not.

[OBD]

What are we even devoting on

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

What are we even devoting on

You're devoting the Senate to me.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Can we get a clarification of how the bill looks with that amendment? It's working with the pre-ishan amendment version so it's unclear whether it's bringing those parts back or not.

Ishan's amendment, according to the message where he introduced it, was meant to replace the bill, so presumably the current text includes only that. I'd like to get Ishan's confirmation however.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The vote on Wulfric's amendment has begun.

Was this ever sponsored by a Senator?

[Continential]

The vote on Wulfric's amendment has begun.

Was this ever sponsored by a Senator?

Cao.

[OBD]

Nay

[Continential]

Nay

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Tired of seeing confusion and being confused myself

This is the situation from my read:

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, hacking into having consensual unauthorized access to a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia
- The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia hereby condemns Governor LouisvilleThunder for his aforementioned actions.

Sponsor Feedback: Unknown - was this hostile or was it objected to?
Status: Vote underway since December 08, 2021, 09:38:13 AM

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So about that confusion part, I forgot who wrote this.

How can something be consensual and unauthorized?

I mean Johnny Cash had a rather good song called "Accidentally on purpose" but we aren't in the music industry here.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Can we get a clarification of how the bill looks with that amendment? It's working with the pre-ishan amendment version so it's unclear whether it's bringing those parts back or not.

Ishan's amendment, according to the message where he introduced it, was meant to replace the bill, so presumably the current text includes only that. I'd like to get Ishan's confirmation however.

If the current amendment contradicts the previous one. When that happens the amendment sponsor of the subsequent one should revise and re offer if practicable, unless he intends to substantially reverse the previously past amendment obviously.

Of course we have not had this problem as much recently, as amendments are fewer in number and spaced out to make this kind of thing less likely. But back in 2013-2014 and 2011 it was a frequent occurrence.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Tired of seeing confusion and being confused myself

This is the situation from my read:

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, hacking into having consensual unauthorized access to a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia
- The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia hereby condemns Governor LouisvilleThunder for his aforementioned actions.

Sponsor Feedback: Unknown - was this hostile or was it objected to?
Status: Vote underway since December 08, 2021, 09:38:13 AM

"Consensual unauthorized" means that LT intentionally obtained internal party info and was not authorized to have that info. It is consent with respect to LT not with respect to Labor.

Technically, the simple act of a Labor member surprise pming a Fed laborcord stuff is giving the Fed unauthorized access. But more than that happened here. LT explicitly sought out such information and people who would give it to him, and ordered them to do just that. Thus consensual is designed to make that clear - LT did not obtain Labor info inadvertently- he willfully sought it out.

Also, my amendment was never objected to, so I guess it passed by voice on November 29? And then got stripped out by Ishan's Substitute Amendment? And now we're voting to just put back the words "Consensual unauthorized" without also bringing back the rest of the original text?

Or if all amendments go to a recorded vote regardless of feedback, then as Ishan's amendment was a substitute, it probably should have been moved to the end of the vote series, and my amendment voted on immediately after Western's. But too late now lol.

As we stand now if my amendment is passed the bill becomes nonsensical. Same goes for Tack's amendment.


If my sponsor can second this, I withdraw the amendment and reintroduce it as follows.

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

1. The Senate of Atlasia condemns LouisvilleThunder for his doxxing of an Atlasian.

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, hacking into having consensual unauthorized access to a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia
- The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia hereby condemns Governor LouisvilleThunder for his aforementioned actions.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Tired of seeing confusion and being confused myself

This is the situation from my read:

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, hacking into having consensual unauthorized access to a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia
- The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia hereby condemns Governor LouisvilleThunder for his aforementioned actions.

Sponsor Feedback: Unknown - was this hostile or was it objected to?
Status: Vote underway since December 08, 2021, 09:38:13 AM

"Consensual unauthorized" means that LT intentionally obtained internal party info and was not authorized to have that info. It is consent with respect to LT not with respect to Labor.

Technically, the simple act of a Labor member surprise pming a Fed laborcord stuff is giving the Fed unauthorized access. But more than that happened here. LT explicitly sought out such information and people who would give it to him, and ordered them to do just that. Thus consensual is designed to make that clear - LT did not obtain Labor info inadvertently- he willfully sought it out.

Still dubious on the word consensual as that word implies "consent" or "permission". The word you probably desire here is "actively" or "assertively" in contrast to "passively acquired".

Also, my amendment was never objected to, so I guess it passed by voice on November 29? And then got stripped out by Ishan's Substitute Amendment? And now we're voting to just put back the words "Consensual unauthorized" without also bringing back the rest of the original text?

Or if all amendments go to a recorded vote regardless of feedback, then as Ishan's amendment was a substitute, it probably should have been moved to the end of the vote series, and my amendment voted on immediately after Western's. But too late now lol.

Dwarven, with all do respect, and I will try to convey these sentiments as tactfully as I can but when it comes to chamber administration, I find your understanding of how it works and your subsequent recommendations and suggestions based on this "knowledge" to be a complete and utter disaster of biblical proportions stemming from helping foist the assigned slot fiasco on the House to the recent matters in Lincoln. I would suggest examining carefully such recommendations in the future, because, as I am practically the "Godfather" of responsible chamber administration in this game, you frequently induce me to want to smash my head into a cinder block wall and that should speak volumes.

So let me put this succinctly as I can for your sake and everyone else's so that you may avoid future embarrassment. Nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING should be taken to have happened in this chamber unless the PPT or Deputy PPT says it has. Nothing passes, nothing is "voiced", nothing is emanated in the penumbras so to speak. The reason for this is quite obvious, in order to maintain accessibility to the outside world and to the members themselves, to avoid confusion and error on the part of the members and ensure the efficiency of the legislative branch, it is incumbent upon the administrator to affirmatively state in declarative fashion what has occurred at each stage.

Unless the PPT called for objections, or opened a vote, the amendment has not been acted upon.

Secondly, amendments are always processed in the order in which they are taken up.

Thirdly, even aside from amendment was affirmatively stated has having been offered following Ishan's by Cao when introduced on your behalf.

Fourthly, amendments don't go to vote unless judged hostile or objected to. If no one did, then Ishan defacto objected by opening the vote, which is again not the appropriate way to do that (discernibly stating matters is the preferred course over leaving stuff to be assumed)

It is possible to advance two amendments simultaneously provided they don't overlap and the PPT clearly and discernibly established which is which and minimizes confusion that such a process could entail.

[WD]

I’m deeply confused myself. Is the current text of the resolution the amendment offered by Ishan?


Nonetheless, I would urge a NO vote on the Wulfric amendment.

[Former President tack50]

I vote aye on the Wulfric amendment. It is closer tona factual description of events. I would just drop the "consensual" part entirely though and just leave it at unauthorized

[GM Team Member and Senator WB]

Let’s keep it simple. Nay

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I’m deeply confused myself.

The structures we have created over the years, or improved over the years, are designed to improve clarity and avoid confusion. However, we have gotten use to cutting corners in this era where "hands off" is the byword of play style from discordification and the AFE Board, to these matters over here.

While by itself it won't avoid this problem, the collapse of the amendment tracking tracking system was a contributing factor to this. Now at least amendments can be linked to and have an identifying number beyond Ishan's amendment, WD's amendment and so one.

Another was opening votes with such vague references and not including the text in the post starting the vote. Granted I got away from this format at times myself but on a bill like this with multiple amendments and such it is necessary.

Lastly, acknowledging the content of the next amendment would substantially reverse the previous one and seek to ascertain whether the sponsor desires revision to incorporate the new text or wants to plunge ahead and sometimes that is appropriate if in their view and the view of the majority it threw the baby out with the bath water. Conversely if its a quixotic attempt with no hope of succeeding, at some point you have to consider the PPT's powers to axe frivolous amendments at least with subsequent attempts at it.

Another means by which to address a similar situation, though not effective here, is to curtail the included elements in an amendment, especially if the conflict derives from the mere inclusion of the entire text but isn't actually being acted upon. Though this does put more work on the PPT/Deputy since they have to cut and reassemble the text more. That wouldn't work here since s106:09 by Ishan replaced the entire text anyway.

Is the current text of the resolution the amendment offered by Ishan?

I think but seeing as how I missed Cao's post initially myself, I would not rule out some unfortunate surprise in this thread's previous pages.

[Pericles]

The access is not consensual if it is unauthorised.

[Joseph Cao]

This is a massive mess and to be completely frank I'm not mentally up to sifting through all this right now. I will save untangling this Gordian knot for when I have the mental acuity to actually make a judgement on whatever has been happening, probably Friday morning or thereabouts.

It is entirely possible a revote may have to be held if the procedural car crash just upthread was bad enough.

[Joseph Cao]

This cleanup on aisle three was brought to you by Jardine Matheson, the government of Tamil Nadu, and the Democratic Action Party.

(The government of Hong Kong also wants to tell you all to vote. Not a word about what is being voted on, they just want you to vote or else the foreign agents win.)


Here is the amendment that constitutes the current text:

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

1. The Senate of Atlasia condemns LouisvilleThunder for his doxxing of an Atlasian.

Here is the original amendment that apparently invited Wulfric to insert some extremely suspect thoughts on parliamentary procedure into the record:

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, hacking into having consensual unauthorized access to a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia
- The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia hereby condemns Governor LouisvilleThunder for his aforementioned actions.

In case anyone was not paying attention – and this thread has been such a waste of gray matter that I don’t blame them – Wulfric withdrew the amendment. The outcome of the vote is therefore moot. Although, for the record, assuming everyone knew what the vote actually was it was 1-4 with 13 senators not voting.

By the way, Wulfric, I am late to this but Ishan’s amendment came before yours and should have been acted before yours and it doesn’t matter what the text of either amendment says.

This was the amendment Wulfric proposed after withdrawing his original amendment:

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

1. The Senate of Atlasia condemns LouisvilleThunder for his doxxing of an Atlasian.

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, hacking into having consensual unauthorized access to a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia
- The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia hereby condemns Governor LouisvilleThunder for his aforementioned actions.

I am not sponsoring this, by the way. Subsection 1 is still further out of our wheelhouse than Planet Nine, and like Planet Nine I am thoroughly unconvinced that it needs to exist.

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him. Therefore, LouisvilleThunder shall be considered guilty of doxxing
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, having  unauthorized access to a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia. Therefore, LouisvilleThunder shall be considered guilty of Breach of the Peace
- The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia hereby condemns Governor LouisvilleThunder for his aforementioned actions, and sentences him to 6 months without the right to vote in elections in Atlasia + 1 year barred from holding office for the count of Breach of the Peace; plus 1 year without the right to vote plus 2 years barred from holding office for the count of doxxing.

This was next on the queue. No it will not be acted on, take it up with Tack for doing unconstitutional stuff if anyone feels strongly enough about this decision to object.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

At some point extenders aren't enough to save you. The big mistake you can make, biggest mistake as PPT is to let this stuff get ahead of you otherwise it will snowball and flatten you.

1. Keep the notice board links up to date even if not the status and times. Then you have the full picture in one page of what needs to happen. Then just click through them.

2. Always keep the topic lines updated. It was second nature to always go back and update the op topic line. If it is by someone else, contact me I have no qualms about using edits for the integrity of the AFG board. If the topic lines are accurate it serves as a visual guide in place of the Noticeboard status and time information but you still need to keep those links accurate (see above) otherwise if you operate from AFG you are basically flying blind as to the full extent of the floor

3. You tried dedicated DM and it didn't work. We now have a Senate discord and mis votes are at a worse point than ever before. When are you kids gonna realize Discord is a fing hospice unit not Monday/Asana or whatever that productivity software is called.

[Joseph Cao]

2. Always keep the topic lines updated. It was second nature to always go back and update the op topic line. If it is by someone else, contact me I have no qualms about using edits for the integrity of the AFG board. If the topic lines are accurate it serves as a visual guide in place of the Noticeboard status and time information but you still need to keep those links accurate (see above) otherwise if you operate from AFG you are basically flying blind as to the full extent of the floor

Honestly those dozen Ishan threads are begging for this treatment right about now.

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

They failed to lock me up (for these totally bs allegations), and they can't even administer this dumb thread. Hahaha

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

2. Always keep the topic lines updated. It was second nature to always go back and update the op topic line. If it is by someone else, contact me I have no qualms about using edits for the integrity of the AFG board. If the topic lines are accurate it serves as a visual guide in place of the Noticeboard status and time information but you still need to keep those links accurate (see above) otherwise if you operate from AFG you are basically flying blind as to the full extent of the floor

Honestly those dozen Ishan threads are begging for this treatment right about now.

You got to know what is going on in the threads though. What do I put in for this one. Are we still at vote?