SR 106-09: LouisvilleThunder Resolution (Passed)

[Continential]

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, hacking into a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia

[/quote]

Sponsor: S019

[AGA]

"Hacking." Lol.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The wording of clause one is riding the line of inappropriate for the legislative branch.

As for the second clause it should be so fortunate that I am at work on lunch and I am not inclined to dismantle this via phone.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him

This is a dangerous overreach into the judicial powers by the legislative branch and only narrowly skirts Bill of Attainder status. While it is in the purview of the Senate express matters of opinion on a whole host of issues spanning the globe, including reflecting on the actions of both the executive and legislative branches as such, it is quite another to intercede by partisan fashion of the legislature to express an opinion on the proceedings of judiciary especially in a criminal case, which is suppose to be independent of such partisan and legislative influence. We do not vote on criminal verdicts and for good reason, therefore under no circumstances will I entertain voting for a resolution that contains this language as displayed above.

- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing,

This may come as a shock to the incensed partisans of Labor, outraged at the intrusion into their affairs, but fortunately for everyone, the whims of the incensed do not determine matters of law.

To put it simply, "the evidence I have seen" does not meet the standard for doxxing in terms of IRL standards at least (at least in terms of the multiple articles I read on the subject during the course of last summer) because it is missing a key element to establishing that such occurred. That is the person being targeted is exposed (in an x=y sort of fashion) or blackmailed with exposure to achieve some kind of discernible effect. At no point (in the transcript shown to me) does LT ever expose a poster by saying X is Y do z with this information. Nor has anyone claimed that LT PMed X saying "I know you are Y do z or else". He does pose an open question, which is never answered and thankfully no one did because as written, anyone answering that question would be just as vulnerable under "Atlasian Law" as LT, and likewise for whoever gave LT the link to the spreadsheet in the first place.

(n) Doxxing. This offense shall be defined as the disclosal of the personal information of any user of the Atlas Forum either obtained illegally or posted against their will by a citizen of Atlasia.

The way the Atlasian law is written is more expansive and even too expansive really. For one is says "Any user of the Atlas forum", which enters a can of worms with regards to Atlas as it relates to the forum as a whole. In the old days it was seen as inclusive of the whole forum community, but that has not been really accepted in probably more than 12 years as such. Furthermore, I don't see us really having much need to interfere in a situation where say someone in game doxes OC, but the doxxed individual is not and the matter has nothing to do with Atlasia. That would be a matter for the forum administration and the legal authorities to handle obviously. I think that probably should at minimum be reduced to "Atlasian citizen" as well, because we don't have an interest in fake prosecuting someone for matters that don't relate to the game.

The second problem here and the one that matters for our purposes tonight, is that the wording takes a shotgun approach in terms of expansiveness. Let's say someone randomly posts my first  name here. Doesn't say it is NC Yankee's real name, just posts it. It could be their own name, it could be someone else name, it could be a real life person. Doesn't matter under this wording, congrats, you get a guilty. Even if it is there their own first name or something else, they posted my name without my permission, they can be prosecuted.

Now let's say you counter that these are extreme cases, okay, but then what is the limiting factor? Extreme cases is an arbitrary line to draw. "NC Yankee's real name is x" is the best one and the one we have precedent for. After Hamilton was banned people would go post Hamilton is X and X is Y repeatedly to try and get it captured by the Google searches. That is a good definition of doxxing in action that happened right here on the forum in 2010.

Had this gone to trial and this was why I asked to be removed from the Jury, was because I advised LT to challenge the constitutionality of the law itself or at least the wording present in it. I also advised he reach out to people who might be able to best make the case against what is arguably, a horribly written statute, in court. Unfortunately none were available to do so, nor was anyone else for that matter.

hacking into a party's discord server,

No one to my knowledge has alleged that that LT hacked anyone's discord account to gain access to the the Laborite discord server. Had this been the case, LT would have been certainly banned from discord I would think and likely would have gotten a stiffer penalty on this site as well. However, no one has previous to this point (unless I have missed something) alleged this, nor has any evidence been presented that proves such.

Instead, I was under the impression that it was widely acknowledged that someone already with access to the discord server in question voluntarily handed over the link to LT, which if correct again puts them in jeopardy under the current Atlasian law's broad language (see above) and furthermore obviously refutes any notion that this was a "hacking".

We have had examples of entry to accounts being obtained on the RPP private forum and with regards to at least two Atlas accounts (one in 2009 and another in 2015), that I am aware of and the last two resulted in bans from the site (one for several months and the latter was permanent).

[OBD]

cool story bro but im voting aye for sh!ts and giggles

[WD]

This is an excellent resolution, however I offer the following amendment, just to make things a bit more clear:

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, hacking into a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia
- The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia hereby condemns Governor LouisvilleThunder for his aforementioned actions.

[S019]

Amendment is friendly

[OSR stands with Israel]

He’s not a member of the senate so I have no idea why we are spending time on things such as this .

[WD]

He’s not a member of the senate so I have no idea why we are spending time on things such as this .

Whether or not he is a member is irrelevant. The Senate has the right to opine on any matter it so chooses.

[Pericles]

We're not a jury and I don't think it's appropriate for us to be chanting "Lock him up!" However, I'm happy to fully condemn his actions and make clear that it should be beyond the pale for someone who wants to play the game.

[Continential]

The resolution should be reworded in its entirety. I'll offer an amendment later today.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I object to the amendment by WD, as it makes even more declarative statements regarding accusations, one of which has yet to be substantiated (see my previous post).

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

hacking into a party's discord server,

No one to my knowledge has alleged that that LT hacked anyone's discord account to gain access to the the Laborite discord server. Had this been the case, LT would have been certainly banned from discord I would think and likely would have gotten a stiffer penalty on this site as well. However, no one has previous to this point (unless I have missed something) alleged this, nor has any evidence been presented that proves such.

Instead, I was under the impression that it was widely acknowledged that someone already with access to the discord server in question voluntarily handed over the link to LT, which if correct again puts them in jeopardy under the current Atlasian law's broad language (see above) and furthermore obviously refutes any notion that this was a "hacking".

We have had examples of entry to accounts being obtained on the RPP private forum and with regards to at least two Atlas accounts (one in 2009 and another in 2015), that I am aware of and the last two resulted in bans from the site (one for several months and the latter was permanent).

Guess I should clarify what is being referred to here. I'm not referring to LT having legit hacked into another person's account in terms of guessing their password or similar. What I am referring to is him having people in Laborcord who send him stuff according to his orders, without Laborcord leaders consent or them even having any real knowledge that these accounts work for LT and not for them until it is too late. There have been admissions by Labor themselves of having to remove these "LT moles". It also cannot be ruled out that a sock of LT himself exists or existed on Laborcord.

If it would be helpful and appropriate I can gather some discord screenshots as evidence.

While this is not hacking in the most egregious sense, it is certainly using undercover and unethical means to gain access to information that honestly LT should not even know exists an ideal world. Further, LT is not some innocent bystander being sent this stuff by coincidence or finding it accidentally but has instead admitted he actively solicits such information.

[WD]

hacking into a party's discord server,

No one to my knowledge has alleged that that LT hacked anyone's discord account to gain access to the the Laborite discord server. Had this been the case, LT would have been certainly banned from discord I would think and likely would have gotten a stiffer penalty on this site as well. However, no one has previous to this point (unless I have missed something) alleged this, nor has any evidence been presented that proves such.

Instead, I was under the impression that it was widely acknowledged that someone already with access to the discord server in question voluntarily handed over the link to LT, which if correct again puts them in jeopardy under the current Atlasian law's broad language (see above) and furthermore obviously refutes any notion that this was a "hacking".

We have had examples of entry to accounts being obtained on the RPP private forum and with regards to at least two Atlas accounts (one in 2009 and another in 2015), that I am aware of and the last two resulted in bans from the site (one for several months and the latter was permanent).

Guess I should clarify what is being referred to here. I'm not referring to LT having legit hacked into another person's account in terms of guessing their password or similar. What I am referring to is him having people in Laborcord who send him stuff according to his orders, without Laborcord leaders consent or them even having any real knowledge that these accounts work for LT and not for them until it is too late. There have been admissions by Labor themselves of having to remove these "LT moles". It also cannot be ruled out that a sock of LT himself exists or existed on Laborcord.

If it would be helpful and appropriate I can gather some discord screenshots as evidence.

While this is not hacking in the most egregious sense, it is certainly using undercover and unethical means to gain access to information that honestly LT should not even know exists an ideal world. Further, LT is not some innocent bystander being sent this stuff by coincidence or finding it accidentally but has instead admitted he actively solicits such information.

I would greatly appreciate you gathering the screenshots.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Screenshot 1: OBD admits LT had a mole in Laborcord that he eventually successfully found and disposed of. LT calls it an intuitive concept, doesn't deny it at all, and says he may get another mole in.



Screenshot 2: LT says breaking into laborcord is funny and heroic.



Screenshot 3: LT publicly and gleefully releases some laborcord leaks to the public



Screenshot 4: LT legit admits he has a Laborcord leaker doing his bidding



Screenshot 5: Ishan says LT has seen Laborcord, LT does not deny it. Was LT in Laborcord?!?



Screenshot 6: Admittedly the age is pushing into irrelevancy on this one, but back in 2019 one of his leakers legit dm'ed me:



--

As you can see, these actions of having leakers (perhaps even himself!) in Laborcord and liking it and clearly desiring more of this information, are quite clear in their existence. Further, this shows that the doxxing incident was not a one-time thing, LT has been soliciting leaks for years from a party that he has never been in and most likely will never be in. And he doesn't shy away from it at all. This is beyond the pale and goes against basic principles of ethical political strategy.

[Continential]

A vote has been started on this amendment.

[Continential]

The amendment I promised to replace this bill and forgot to introduce is this:

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

1. The Senate of Atlasia condemns LouisvilleThunder for his doxxing of an Atlasian.

[WD]

A vote has been started on this amendment.

Just for clarification, who’s amendment are we voting on?

[Continential]

A vote has been started on this amendment.

Just for clarification, who’s amendment are we voting on?

Your's.

[WD]

Aye

[Saint Milei]

nay

[Crane]

Aye

[Dr. MB]

Abstain

[Spark]

Abstain

[Crane]

Screenshot 1: OBD admits LT had a mole in Laborcord that he eventually successfully found and disposed of. LT calls it an intuitive concept, doesn't deny it at all, and says he may get another mole in.



Screenshot 2: LT says breaking into laborcord is funny and heroic.



Screenshot 3: LT publicly and gleefully releases some laborcord leaks to the public



Screenshot 4: LT legit admits he has a Laborcord leaker doing his bidding



Screenshot 5: Ishan says LT has seen Laborcord, LT does not deny it. Was LT in Laborcord?!?



Screenshot 6: Admittedly the age is pushing into irrelevancy on this one, but back in 2019 one of his leakers legit dm'ed me:



--

As you can see, these actions of having leakers (perhaps even himself!) in Laborcord and liking it and clearly desiring more of this information, are quite clear in their existence. Further, this shows that the doxxing incident was not a one-time thing, LT has been soliciting leaks for years from a party that he has never been in and most likely will never be in. And he doesn't shy away from it at all. This is beyond the pale and goes against basic principles of ethical political strategy.

The Labor Party will never condemn moles because Windjammer uses them.