Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[Hindsight was 2020]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/jewish-group-demands-apology-after-mps-honoured-man-who-fought-for-nazis-1.6575593
Might as well post here, seems the entire Canadian parliament stood up and clapped for a possible Nazi collaborator from Ukraine who now lives in Canada.

Yeah, I saw this on Brazilian media. It was NOT a good look for Canada at all to receive this Hardcore Actual Nazi, imagine all going to clap for him. They all looked either dumb/foolish or ill-intentioned.

I’ve seen this being used as validation that Anti-Russia hate is tied to Nazi Anti-Communist hate for the USSR since they defeated them in WW2. And Russia is perceived as the direct heir of the Soviet Union. The left is already running with the “Liberals would rather work with Nazis to go against Communists” rhetoric.

Impressive how historical weight matters a lot even in the present. Russia isn’t a leftist government at all but because they defeated Nazis as the USSR, progressives take very seriously any claim about nazism coming from them.

Mix that with the fact that there’s some level of truth in what Russia says about Ukraine - even if it’s a generalization and still doesn’t justify an outright invasion - and the chaos in all sides of the political spectrum is guaranteed. Which is why everyone should simply stop trying to politically label people based on their opinion of this specific matter lol

You have Liberals standing with and endorsing Nazis in order to own Russian imperialists but everything under some weird Anti-Communist resentment undertones. You have Progressive Leftists being sympathetic towards Nationalism and Social Conservatives in order to own the Liberals hypocrisy. You have United States and Bush Establishment Republicans acting like it thinks starting wars to topple regimes is bad. You have sectors of the Right and of the Left uniting in the matter. You can be a communist while supporting Trump and that will somehow make sense.

World has turned upside down, which evidences a clear transition period. It’s not 20th Century anymore but people still use references from that time because it’s closest comparison point they have. While new dynamics aren’t yet fully clear to most other that we’re operating under a more multipolar logic.

🙄

C’mon now. Being 100% inflexible on this matter is exactly why embarrassing stuff like Canada welcoming and applauding an Ukrainian Nazi guy from WW2 era in order to own the Russians because “he fought against them in WW2” happens. May it be a warning lesson to you because it happened in Canada but I could totally see the same stuff happening in US based on your politicians stances.

You can acknowledge that Ukraine has a nazi problem politically where these people are in very much in good relations with the political class while still saying it’s wrong to to generalize an entire society through it and that it doesn’t nearly justify an invasion.

Before the invasion, people openly talked about this issue, with US congress even banning some of these Ukrainian nazi militias from receiving arms in 2018 - though that certainly must’ve changed after 2022 based on enemy of my enemy is my friend mentality.

This lack of nuance and a narrative of “all or nothing” approach only hurts your own goals in the long term because average sane person watches what happened in Canada parliament and thinks: “Wow so at least there’s SOME logic behind Russia accusations then!” and they get the increasing impression you people are trying to hide the big elephant in the room.

Whereas if you simply addressed or acknowledged the issue: “Yes, there might be a Nazi emboldening problem in Ukraine since those were who were fighting the Soviets (Russia) back at the day, but that doesn’t justify Russia instrumentalizing it for its own sake through the means of an actual invasion”, most people would simply understand and likely agree with you.

Ukraine’s leader is Jewish and whose direct family survived the Holocaust. Heck just based off on daily tracking of the everyday soldiers on the ground it’s very likely there are more Jewish people fighting in the Ukrainian military than in the Russian one. That’s not even getting into the giant elephant in the room of the country that loves to bring up the Azov battalion just ignores the ideological makeup of what was until the mutiny the most effective fighting unit on their side (Wagner)

[KaiserDave]

I will take a sort of middle path here. On the one hand, saying that "there’s some level of truth in what Russia says about Ukraine" is hyperbolic, Russia's claims about Nazism in Ukraine are exaggerated, deranged, insincere, and most of all hypocritical. Russia has no leg to stand on when criticizing another state for cultivating far-right forces or antisemitism. But also, you cannot respond to every issue Ukraine has with far-right ideology and historical memory with "Zelenskyy is Jewish" or "Wagner is Nazi."

Ukraine has a far-right problem, Ukraine has a problem with how it remembers World War Two and the Holocaust. This is also true of more or less every state in Europe. It is not necessarily more true in Ukraine. In Russia for example, the way Nazism is conceived is very problematic. When discussing Nazism and Nazi crimes in Russia, focus is paid only to the "anti-Russian" nature of Nazism, and not crimes such as the Holocaust or Nazi antisemitism. This creates a lot of issues, to the point where Russian perspectives on Nazism don't actually condemn mass violence against civilians, but only see it as bad when it is done against Russians (which is obviously bad, and Nazi crimes against the Russian people were enormous, but you see my point). Russia also has a huge far-right problem and has cultivated far-right forces in its fighting ranks, which I have elaborated on previously. Latvia is another state in Europe with a similar problem, with great debate on the memory of the Latvian SS legions which fought the Soviet Union, with many Latvians proclaiming them as national heroes. This obviously should be condemned, but this debate in Latvia does not make Latvia a Nazi state.

Ukraine has this problem too. Now, in this case, the SS-Galicia Division is not honored by the Ukrainian state in any way whatsoever, and there is no substantial contingent in society outside of Galicia seeking out honor for the SS, but this problem can be seen in how Ukraine remembers UPA and OUN-B. These radical Ukrainian nationalist sects led by Stepan Bandera fought the Soviet Union for many years and committed horrific atrocities against Jews and Poles. In Ukraine, there are many who see Bandera as an anti-Russian patriot, there are streets and neighborhoods named after him and his lieutenants. During this time of war with Russia, respect for Bandera has gone up. This is very very bad, and should be condemned. There are also many far-right formations in the Ukrainian military that have arose since 2014, but unlike Russia I think Ukraine has done a lot more to depoliticize and deradicalize these units. And it should be clear that Zelenskyy is not at all a supporter of far-right nationalism, nor does he hold misguided beliefs on Ukraine's past, after all he is a Russian-speaking Jew, not a Galician ethnic nationalist.

Russia's claims about Ukrainian Nazism are nonsense genocide propaganda, but we shouldn't be afraid to discuss Ukraine's issues with historical memory and far-right sentiment.

[Person Man]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/jewish-group-demands-apology-after-mps-honoured-man-who-fought-for-nazis-1.6575593
Might as well post here, seems the entire Canadian parliament stood up and clapped for a possible Nazi collaborator from Ukraine who now lives in Canada.

Yeah, I saw this on Brazilian media. It was NOT a good look for Canada at all to receive this Hardcore Actual Nazi, imagine all going to clap for him. They all looked either dumb/foolish or ill-intentioned.

I’ve seen this being used as validation that Anti-Russia hate is tied to Nazi Anti-Communist hate for the USSR since they defeated them in WW2. And Russia is perceived as the direct heir of the Soviet Union. The left is already running with the “Liberals would rather work with Nazis to go against Communists” rhetoric.

Impressive how historical weight matters a lot even in the present. Russia isn’t a leftist government at all but because they defeated Nazis as the USSR, progressives take very seriously any claim about nazism coming from them.

Mix that with the fact that there’s some level of truth in what Russia says about Ukraine - even if it’s a generalization and still doesn’t justify an outright invasion - and the chaos in all sides of the political spectrum is guaranteed. Which is why everyone should simply stop trying to politically label people based on their opinion of this specific matter lol

You have Liberals standing with and endorsing Nazis in order to own Russian imperialists but everything under some weird Anti-Communist resentment undertones. You have Progressive Leftists being sympathetic towards Nationalism and Social Conservatives in order to own the Liberals hypocrisy. You have United States and Bush Establishment Republicans acting like it thinks starting wars to topple regimes is bad. You have sectors of the Right and of the Left uniting in the matter. You can be a communist while supporting Trump and that will somehow make sense.

World has turned upside down, which evidences a clear transition period. It’s not 20th Century anymore but people still use references from that time because it’s closest comparison point they have. While new dynamics aren’t yet fully clear to most other that we’re operating under a more multipolar logic.

🙄

C’mon now. Being 100% inflexible on this matter is exactly why embarrassing stuff like Canada welcoming and applauding an Ukrainian Nazi guy from WW2 era in order to own the Russians because “he fought against them in WW2” happens. May it be a warning lesson to you because it happened in Canada but I could totally see the same stuff happening in US based on your politicians stances.

You can acknowledge that Ukraine has a nazi problem politically where these people are in very much in good relations with the political class while still saying it’s wrong to to generalize an entire society through it and that it doesn’t nearly justify an invasion.

Before the invasion, people openly talked about this issue, with US congress even banning some of these Ukrainian nazi militias from receiving arms in 2018 - though that certainly must’ve changed after 2022 based on enemy of my enemy is my friend mentality.

This lack of nuance and a narrative of “all or nothing” approach only hurts your own goals in the long term because average sane person watches what happened in Canada parliament and thinks: “Wow so at least there’s SOME logic behind Russia accusations then!” and they get the increasing impression you people are trying to hide the big elephant in the room.

Whereas if you simply addressed or acknowledged the issue: “Yes, there might be a Nazi emboldening problem in Ukraine since those were who were fighting the Soviets (Russia) back at the day, but that doesn’t justify Russia instrumentalizing it for its own sake through the means of an actual invasion”, most people would simply understand and likely agree with you.

Ukraine’s leader is Jewish and whose direct family survived the Holocaust. Heck just based off on daily tracking of the everyday soldiers on the ground it’s very likely there are more Jewish people fighting in the Ukrainian military than in the Russian one. That’s not even getting into the giant elephant in the room of the country that loves to bring up the Azov battalion just ignores the ideological makeup of what was until the mutiny the most effective fighting unit on their side (Wagner)

It appears that the more ironic something is the more likely it is to happen.

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://twitter.com/DrJacobsRad/status/1706320914021835105

[Storr]

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1706348256639222126?s=20

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://www.businessinsider.com/olena-zelenksa-zelenskyy-ukraine-presidential-election-war-martial-law-democracy-2023-9

"Ukraine's first lady questions if Zelenskyy will run for president again as the war-torn country weighs whether to hold an election at all"

Huh. Zelensky possibly choosing not to run again was not on my bingo card.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://www.businessinsider.com/olena-zelenksa-zelenskyy-ukraine-presidential-election-war-martial-law-democracy-2023-9

"Ukraine's first lady questions if Zelenskyy will run for president again as the war-torn country weighs whether to hold an election at all"

Huh. Zelensky possibly choosing not to run again was not on my bingo card.

This is really Zelensky wife saying to collective West: Back off on pushing us to hold an election in 2024.  If you push us too far Zelensky  will not run and you will have no one to rally around

Ah.  That would be more natural of an explanation.

The Economist accepts now that this will be a long war

When you combine this with what Storr posted (US aid for Ukraine in a number of areas that aren't flashy but still important and save Ukrainian lives), this is the media starting to migrate to where the bureaucracy has been all along...this is the long haul, this is how we ready Ukraine for it, etc.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

This Rota moron couldn't have done more to legitimate the Putin-simp spin on the Ukrainian cause if he had tried. If he had decency he'd resign as Speaker and if he had character he'd resign as MP.

[Hindsight was 2020]

I get the optics but of not having elections but how in gods name can the West be legitimately pressuring for them when Russia’s deliberately firing missiles at civilian targets? Polling centers would be nothing but giant bull-eyes and an all mail-in ballot election in these circumstances would be a logistical nightmare

[pppolitics]

ISW's Interactive Map

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/36a7f6a6f5a9448496de641cf64bd375

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1706438526638625043

[Aurelius2]

I will take a sort of middle path here. On the one hand, saying that "there’s some level of truth in what Russia says about Ukraine" is hyperbolic, Russia's claims about Nazism in Ukraine are exaggerated, deranged, insincere, and most of all hypocritical. Russia has no leg to stand on when criticizing another state for cultivating far-right forces or antisemitism. But also, you cannot respond to every issue Ukraine has with far-right ideology and historical memory with "Zelenskyy is Jewish" or "Wagner is Nazi."

Ukraine has a far-right problem, Ukraine has a problem with how it remembers World War Two and the Holocaust. This is also true of more or less every state in Europe. It is not necessarily more true in Ukraine. In Russia for example, the way Nazism is conceived is very problematic. When discussing Nazism and Nazi crimes in Russia, focus is paid only to the "anti-Russian" nature of Nazism, and not crimes such as the Holocaust or Nazi antisemitism. This creates a lot of issues, to the point where Russian perspectives on Nazism don't actually condemn mass violence against civilians, but only see it as bad when it is done against Russians (which is obviously bad, and Nazi crimes against the Russian people were enormous, but you see my point). Russia also has a huge far-right problem and has cultivated far-right forces in its fighting ranks, which I have elaborated on previously. Latvia is another state in Europe with a similar problem, with great debate on the memory of the Latvian SS legions which fought the Soviet Union, with many Latvians proclaiming them as national heroes. This obviously should be condemned, but this debate in Latvia does not make Latvia a Nazi state.

Ukraine has this problem too. Now, in this case, the SS-Galicia Division is not honored by the Ukrainian state in any way whatsoever, and there is no substantial contingent in society outside of Galicia seeking out honor for the SS, but this problem can be seen in how Ukraine remembers UPA and OUN-B. These radical Ukrainian nationalist sects led by Stepan Bandera fought the Soviet Union for many years and committed horrific atrocities against Jews and Poles. In Ukraine, there are many who see Bandera as an anti-Russian patriot, there are streets and neighborhoods named after him and his lieutenants. During this time of war with Russia, respect for Bandera has gone up. This is very very bad, and should be condemned. There are also many far-right formations in the Ukrainian military that have arose since 2014, but unlike Russia I think Ukraine has done a lot more to depoliticize and deradicalize these units. And it should be clear that Zelenskyy is not at all a supporter of far-right nationalism, nor does he hold misguided beliefs on Ukraine's past, after all he is a Russian-speaking Jew, not a Galician ethnic nationalist.

Russia's claims about Ukrainian Nazism are nonsense genocide propaganda, but we shouldn't be afraid to discuss Ukraine's issues with historical memory and far-right sentiment.

Not to mention Bohdan Khmelnytsky being widely considered another Ukrainian national hero. The man was responsible for one of the most brutal pogroms against Jews (and Poles too) in history.

None of this justifies Russia's blather about "denazification". At the same time I'm not going to do what certain denizens with double digit IQs have been doing, and whatabout or make excuses for Canada's parliament honoring a literal Waffen SS Nazi. I have too much self respect to cross certain lines.

Like I said in a previous post, Eastern Europe in WW2 was a f**king brutal mess and I can easily see how after the Holodomor a gentile Ukrainian could get to the point they see the Nazis as the lesser evil. But the Waffen SS, an ideologically recruited shock trooper organization, was not even your ordinary Wehrmacht trooper (not to suggest I'm buying into the clean Wehrmacht myth, which I am not).

Random tangent, I am actually surprised we haven't seen any whataboutery from the Hunka apologist/"buh Zelensky is Jewish" types comparing Bandera and the OUN to Finland's situation in WW2 and going all "but no one cares that Finland did that!!!". Of course, the key differences would be that (1) unlike Bandera's goons the Finns did not commit atrocities, and IIRC the Finns protected their Jews and other minorities from Nazi repressions, (2) they did their best to keep the Nazis at arms length from what I understand (I may be wrong on this one), broke off the alliance as soon as possible, and even fought a little-known war against the Nazis when the Nazis refused to leave Lapland, and (3) that yes, this is still a somewhat controversial topic.

As to your point about the common, warped Eastern European conception of Nazism, I've long figured that something similar to that is how you paradoxically end up with Russian Nazis. Such creatures would seem paradoxical but when your conception of Nazism is "people who genocided their enemies" rather than "people who saw Jews and Slavs as racial inferiors and thus sought to wipe them out" it is much easier to see how a despicable Russian who seeks to massacre, say, Jews and Ukrainians, would arrive at such a self-identification.

[lfromnj]

Not to mention Bohdan Khmelnytsky being widely considered another Ukrainian national hero. The man was responsible for one of the most brutal pogroms against Jews (and Poles too) in history.

None of this justifies Russia's blather about "denazification". At the same time I'm not going to do what certain denizens with double digit IQs have been doing, and whatabout or make excuses for Canada's parliament honoring a literal Waffen SS Nazi. I have too much self respect to cross certain lines.

While the glorification of Hunka may be a dubious or exaggerated step, even more groundless is an accusation of him as a Nazi, given that soldiers like him were motivated to prevent further Soviet atrocities in Ukraine, which still remain overlooked by historians today.

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/09/25/did-canada-parliament-really-invite-nazi-yaroslav-hunka/

By the way here's an article by a beloved source for the war here trying to downplay the incident.

[jaichind]

None of this justifies Russia's blather about "denazification". At the same time I'm not going to do what certain denizens with double digit IQs have been doing, and whatabout or make excuses for Canada's parliament honoring a literal Waffen SS Nazi. I have too much self respect to cross certain lines.

There are many positions that Putin takes in this war and outside this war that I generally agree with and support.  This "Nazi" argument Putin makes about Ukraine is not one of them.  The role of UNA in Ukraine in WWII is similar to the role of the Chetniks in Serbia.  Both fought the Germans and the Communists but all things equal were more aligned with the Germans and took help from the Germans in many situations.  The Chetniks are now hailed in Serbia as Serbian Patriots but this does not seem to stop Putin from having positive relations with Serbia.  So Putin has a double standard here.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

None of this justifies Russia's blather about "denazification". At the same time I'm not going to do what certain denizens with double digit IQs have been doing, and whatabout or make excuses for Canada's parliament honoring a literal Waffen SS Nazi. I have too much self respect to cross certain lines.

There are many positions that Putin takes in this war and outside this war that I generally agree with and support.  This "Nazi" argument Putin makes about Ukraine is not one of them.  The role of UNA in Ukraine in WWII is similar to the role of the Chetniks in Serbia.  Both fought the Germans and the Communists but all things equal were more aligned with the Germans and took help from the Germans in many situations.  The Chetniks are now hailed in Serbia as Serbian Patriots but this does not seem to stop Putin from having positive relations with Serbia.  So Putin has a double standard here.

For what it's worth, the West doesn't see Serbia highlighting Chetniks as heroes either as an obstacle to diplomacy (and Serbia and EU/America are probably closer to each other than anytime over the past 25 years).
If hypocrisy was measured by how much Nazi and Hitler was used, then Russia would in fact be the most hypocritical one of them all despite Ukrainian whitewashing of the UNA. This is principally because "Ukraine=Nazi" is the best way for Putin to paint Ukraine's government in the worst possible light to both his own people and people overseas.
The past is, for politicians, a tool to achieve and maintain things in the present. And this has both positive and negative uses.

[CanadianDemocrat]

Russian government: "We ArE vErY cOnCeRnEd AbOuT nEo-NaZiS iN tHe UkRaInIaN gOvErNmEnT."

Meanwhile people defending Russia's invasion of Ukraine:

In terms of WWII history, I am fairly revisionist, and while I still lean toward being more pro-Allies than pro-Axis. I am fairly empathetic to the Axis point of view.

More Ukrainians died in Stalin's genocide of Ukraine, which killed 3.9 million Ukrainians in the Holodomor, then Nazi Germany. The Soviet Union was just as evil as Nazi Germany. Stalin is the same evil dictator as Hitler.

Stalin and Hitler were genocidal monsters who wanted to wipe Ukraine off the map.

[Aurelius2]

Russian government: "We ArE vErY cOnCeRnEd AbOuT nEo-NaZiS iN tHe UkRaInIaN gOvErNmEnT."

Meanwhile people defending Russia's invasion of Ukraine:

In terms of WWII history, I am fairly revisionist, and while I still lean toward being more pro-Allies than pro-Axis. I am fairly empathetic to the Axis point of view.

More Ukrainians died in Stalin's genocide of Ukraine, which killed 3.9 million Ukrainians in the Holodomor, then Nazi Germany. The Soviet Union was just as evil as Nazi Germany. Stalin is the same evil dictator as Hitler.

I'm on record supporting Operation Unthinkable - it's a shame we didn't continue eastward and roll over the commies to liberate Eastern Europe and break the shackles of communism - so I am entirely consistent here.

[Badger]

I do not care either way.  In terms of WWII history, I am fairly revisionist, and while I still lean toward being more pro-Allies than pro-Axis I am fairly empathetic to the Axis point of view.  Still, this sort of action seems inconsistent with the state values that Trudeau would project.

Do you have any empathy for Japan's occupation of China and mass murder of Chinese civilians?

This is Jaichind. He is as close to any poster to lack empathy for anything or anyone other than his money.

[PSOL]

Real normal conversations on Atlas

[Badger]

I do not care either way.  In terms of WWII history, I am fairly revisionist, and while I still lean toward being more pro-Allies than pro-Axis I am fairly empathetic to the Axis point of view.  Still, this sort of action seems inconsistent with the state values that Trudeau would project.

Do you have any empathy for Japan's occupation of China and mass murder of Chinese civilians?

Objectionable, but not as much as the people who in future war with China would suddenly pull a 180 and become war crimes apologists for the sake of geopolitics. Probably less as Japan fought directly against the U.S., but as the recent Canadian parliament scandal shows there are far more of them willing to wink wink at that sort of stuff than people would like to admit.

The mass murder of 30 million people -- men, women, and children -- is merely "objectionable" to you, with a but?

The practice of throwing babies in the air and catching them with bayonets you would describe as just "objectionable?"

The practice of forcing parents at gunpoint to rape their own daughters before killing them all is just "objectionable?"

Crimes so sickening a literal Nazi, John Rabe, had to intervene to try to stop it out of disgust are just "objectionable?"

And none of this nearly as bad as imaginary war crimes you attribute to an imaginary future imaginarily justified by imaginary people?

deleted

A fanatic can repent of their sins and be just as fanatical in seeking to atome for them. An opportunist on the other hand can never be persuaded that they joined the wrong side in commiting atrocities because they were never right to beign with, simply wearing a mask to fit popular opinion of the time. Pretty self evident to anybody who was reading my post in good faith.

Seeing as though you did not read it in good faith I have to ask did you have to ask, did you have a bad day at work that you feel the need to vent for online? Whatever the case it's certainly no excuse for foaming at the mouth like some rabid animal.

WTF does this even mean? Kindly don't bring up repentance of sin to defend your own gross insensitivity

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1706088303970152541?s=20

Yuck, This should be Europe's job .

You're assuming they are not contributing in this respect as well.

[lfromnj]

https://twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1706088303970152541?s=20

Yuck, This should be Europe's job .

You're assuming they are not contributing in this respect as well.

It should only be their job, Ukraine is one of the most corrupt nations in the world, we should not be giving international aid outside of military and token humanitarian which is much less likely to be stolen. Europe is close to Ukraine and can keep a closer check on such financial aid.

[Badger]

Russian government: "We ArE vErY cOnCeRnEd AbOuT nEo-NaZiS iN tHe UkRaInIaN gOvErNmEnT."

Meanwhile people defending Russia's invasion of Ukraine:

In terms of WWII history, I am fairly revisionist, and while I still lean toward being more pro-Allies than pro-Axis. I am fairly empathetic to the Axis point of view.

More Ukrainians died in Stalin's genocide of Ukraine, which killed 3.9 million Ukrainians in the Holodomor, then Nazi Germany. The Soviet Union was just as evil as Nazi Germany. Stalin is the same evil dictator as Hitler.

I'm on record supporting Operation Unthinkable - it's a shame we didn't continue eastward and roll over the commies to liberate Eastern Europe and break the shackles of communism - so I am entirely consistent here.

What utter myopia. We wouldn't have "rolled over the commies". We would have started World War 3 against very tough very experienced Soviet troops with what was by 1945 a thoroughly built up domestic work economy. Plus, we would have moral imperative to prosecute the war and lead the world towards a unified Victory against the axis. Hell, after 4 years of blood and treasure being spent on an unprecedented scale, Americans would have never supported it. This is a wet dream of reaganites

[NOVA Green]

Rarely post here anymore but:

RE: Former UKR SS in WWII looks like Canada's speaker has apologized for calling the dude a "hero".

The Ukrainian man sitting in the gallery of Canada’s House of Commons was a “hero,” the speaker of the House said on Friday, drawing applause from lawmakers, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine, who had just addressed the chamber during his first visit to Ottawa since Russia invaded his country.

But several Jewish groups responded with outrage, saying that the man, Yaroslav Hunka, 98, had served in a Nazi unit known as the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS, which fought alongside Germany during World War II and declared allegiance to Adolf Hitler.

“He is a Ukrainian hero, a Canadian hero,” Mr. Rota said, “and we thank him for all his service,” prompting applause from lawmakers and a fist pump from Mr. Zelensky.

No other Canadian lawmakers, nor members of Mr. Zelensky’s visiting Ukrainian delegation, knew about Mr. Rota’s remarks before he made them, he said on Sunday.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/25/world/europe/canada-ukraine-nazi-apology.html

This is really a case of "self-owning", but in this case unfortunately it has rebounded dramatically in a manner which reinforces the Russian false narrative regarding "De-Nazification" of Ukraine, regardless of the actual facts on the ground when it comes to improvements which Ukraine has made compared to many other countries in Central and Eastern Europe since the end of the Cold War.

As many posters on Atlas are already well aware, I identify 100% with an Anti-Fascist perspective deeply rooted from WWII where my Grandfather served in Western Europe under Eisenhower and saw military combat at the Battle of the Bulge.

I was involved in various informal networks from HS in the late '80s / early '90s into college where we would be prepared to physically confront Neo-Nazis in the street when they were moving into our small factory and college towns in Oregon and then later when the KKK tried a Midwest tour around '93 and '94.

Lived overseas for a bit including England, Germany, and Poland, not to mention hitting many other countries at the time.

Def not a fan of Neo-Nazis and Fascists regardless of what they consider their nationality.

Got some hits from MAGA supporters on Atlas for simply posting an Antifa sig with many of the simps thinking somehow I was supporting a "Terrorist Organization" bcs their Prez told them that was the case...



Time for a NOVA GREEN musical interlude...

Let's start with Woody....

Fast forward to Scottish Punk band Oi Polloi from the '90s, they naturally get a two-for...

Toss in a little bit of legendary UK artists LKJ "Five Nights of Bleeding":.

I was one of the first on this thread to post connections between the Azov Brigade back in the days of '14+ and organized European Far-Right political formations.

Those of us who have long been supportive of the Libertarian-Socialist strains originating in Central and Eastern Europe starting with the collapse of the USSR firmly reject the rise of the authoritarian right wing governments in places such as Poland and Hungary.

These are slippery slopes indeed, but yet there is an political and moral imperative to continue to support Ukraine, which did become a Democracy albeit with some corruption issues, since the reality is that Russia through it's actions are conducting all sorts of policies which are much more reminiscent of NAZI and Fascist policies as part of a naked imperialistic power grab.

The policy of US support for Ukraine is a moral imperative, even for someone like myself who once was opposed to NATO viewing it as a tool of "American Imperialism".

Older man looks at the scoreboard and says US support for Ukraine is a "Just War", as opposed to Iraq 1.0 and Iraq 2.0.

[EastAnglianLefty]

I get the optics but of not having elections but how in gods name can the West be legitimately pressuring for them when Russia’s deliberately firing missiles at civilian targets? Polling centers would be nothing but giant bull-eyes and an all mail-in ballot election in these circumstances would be a logistical nightmare

Is it "the West" pressuring them or the Americans? Certainly there's no pressure on this front from Britain, which didn't hold general elections in either WW1 or WW2 and none of the Dominions that held elections during that period had their own territory directly threatened by war. We don't have the precedent of 1864.