Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[Alben Barkley]

I do not care either way.  In terms of WWII history, I am fairly revisionist, and while I still lean toward being more pro-Allies than pro-Axis I am fairly empathetic to the Axis point of view.  Still, this sort of action seems inconsistent with the state values that Trudeau would project.

You are a vile specimen who is not worthy to lick the gum off Dwight D. Eisenhower's shoe.

Nathan is the best mod ever, exhibit 1079.

Please tell me you weren't behind editing my post telling that pro-Axis user to read a book, and shut up about things he knows nothing about. (Yeah I might have thrown a few censored f-bombs in there too, but COME ON, let's not PRETEND this is anything uncalled for!)

[Cashew]

I do not care either way.  In terms of WWII history, I am fairly revisionist, and while I still lean toward being more pro-Allies than pro-Axis I am fairly empathetic to the Axis point of view.  Still, this sort of action seems inconsistent with the state values that Trudeau would project.

You are a vile specimen who is not worthy to lick the gum off Dwight D. Eisenhower's shoe.

Nathan is the best mod ever, exhibit 1079.

Please tell me you weren't behind editing my post telling that pro-Axis weeb to get his head checked, read a book, and shut up about things he knows nothing about. (Yeah I might have thrown a few censored f-bombs in there too, but COME ON, let's not PRETEND this is anything uncalled for!)

Sir that is defamatory.

[Alben Barkley]

I do not care either way.  In terms of WWII history, I am fairly revisionist, and while I still lean toward being more pro-Allies than pro-Axis I am fairly empathetic to the Axis point of view.  Still, this sort of action seems inconsistent with the state values that Trudeau would project.

Do you have any empathy for Japan's occupation of China and mass murder of Chinese civilians?

Objectionable, but not as much as the people who in future war with China would suddenly pull a 180 and become war crimes apologists for the sake of geopolitics. Probably less as Japan fought directly against the U.S., but as the recent Canadian parliament scandal shows there are far more of them willing to wink wink at that sort of stuff than people would like to admit.

The mass murder of 30 million people -- men, women, and children -- is merely "objectionable" to you, with a but?

The practice of throwing babies in the air and catching them with bayonets you would describe as just "objectionable?"

The practice of forcing parents at gunpoint to rape their own daughters before killing them all is just "objectionable?"

Crimes so sickening a literal Nazi, John Rabe, had to intervene to try to stop it out of disgust are just "objectionable?"

And none of this nearly as bad as imaginary war crimes you attribute to an imaginary future imaginarily justified by imaginary people?

deleted

A fanatic can repent of their sins and be just as fanatical in seeking to atome for them. An opportunist on the other hand can never be persuaded that they joined the wrong side in commiting atrocities because they were never right to beign with, simply wearing a mask to fit popular opinion of the time. Pretty self evident to anybody who was reading my post in good faith.

Seeing as though you did not read it in good faith I have to ask did you have to ask, did you have a bad day at work that you feel the need to vent for online? Whatever the case it's certainly no excuse for foaming at the mouth like some rabid animal.

I love how nothing's going to happen to you for dehumanizing me by calling me a "rabid animal," but you probably reported me and got my post edited because, for all your apologetics for fascist criminal regimes (and that IS what you are doing, whether you acknowledge it or not), you actually are too soft to take it at the end of the day.

Whatever.

Permanently placed on ignore. Anybody who says just about ANYTHING is worse than Japanese war crimes belongs on that list and certainly isn't worth my time thinking another moment about.

[Cashew]

I do not care either way.  In terms of WWII history, I am fairly revisionist, and while I still lean toward being more pro-Allies than pro-Axis I am fairly empathetic to the Axis point of view.  Still, this sort of action seems inconsistent with the state values that Trudeau would project.

Do you have any empathy for Japan's occupation of China and mass murder of Chinese civilians?

Objectionable, but not as much as the people who in future war with China would suddenly pull a 180 and become war crimes apologists for the sake of geopolitics. Probably less as Japan fought directly against the U.S., but as the recent Canadian parliament scandal shows there are far more of them willing to wink wink at that sort of stuff than people would like to admit.

The mass murder of 30 million people -- men, women, and children -- is merely "objectionable" to you, with a but?

The practice of throwing babies in the air and catching them with bayonets you would describe as just "objectionable?"

The practice of forcing parents at gunpoint to rape their own daughters before killing them all is just "objectionable?"

Crimes so sickening a literal Nazi, John Rabe, had to intervene to try to stop it out of disgust are just "objectionable?"

And none of this nearly as bad as imaginary war crimes you attribute to an imaginary future imaginarily justified by imaginary people?

deleted

A fanatic can repent of their sins and be just as fanatical in seeking to atome for them. An opportunist on the other hand can never be persuaded that they joined the wrong side in commiting atrocities because they were never right to beign with, simply wearing a mask to fit popular opinion of the time. Pretty self evident to anybody who was reading my post in good faith.

Seeing as though you did not read it in good faith I have to ask did you have to ask, did you have a bad day at work that you feel the need to vent for online? Whatever the case it's certainly no excuse for foaming at the mouth like some rabid animal.

I love how nothing's going to happen to you for dehumanizing me by calling me a "rabid animal," but you probably reported me and got my post edited because, for all your apologetics for fascist criminal regimes (and that IS what you are doing, whether you acknowledge it or not), you actually are too soft to take it at the end of the day.

Whatever.

Permanently placed on ignore.

Putting words in my mouth (twice now) is not something one does unless they are seeking out a conflict. If this word salad and blocking somebody(we both know you are going to read this) after you went too far gives you the illusion of a dignified exit so be it.

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/georgewbarros/status/1706137607300649304
https://twitter.com/TheStudyofWar/status/1706134655102067056

[Red Velvet]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/jewish-group-demands-apology-after-mps-honoured-man-who-fought-for-nazis-1.6575593
Might as well post here, seems the entire Canadian parliament stood up and clapped for a possible Nazi collaborator from Ukraine who now lives in Canada.

Yeah, I saw this on Brazilian media. It was NOT a good look for Canada at all to receive this Hardcore Actual Nazi, imagine all going to clap for him. They all looked either dumb/foolish or ill-intentioned.

I’ve seen this being used as validation that Anti-Russia hate is tied to Nazi Anti-Communist hate for the USSR since they defeated them in WW2. And Russia is perceived as the direct heir of the Soviet Union. The left is already running with the “Liberals would rather work with Nazis to go against Communists” rhetoric.

Impressive how historical weight matters a lot even in the present. Russia isn’t a leftist government at all but because they defeated Nazis as the USSR, progressives take very seriously any claim about nazism coming from them.

Mix that with the fact that there’s some level of truth in what Russia says about Ukraine - even if it’s a generalization and still doesn’t justify an outright invasion - and the chaos in all sides of the political spectrum is guaranteed. Which is why everyone should simply stop trying to politically label people based on their opinion of this specific matter lol

You have Liberals standing with and endorsing Nazis in order to own Russian imperialists but everything under some weird Anti-Communist resentment undertones. You have Progressive Leftists being sympathetic towards Nationalism and Social Conservatives in order to own the Liberals hypocrisy. You have United States and Bush Establishment Republicans acting like it thinks starting wars to topple regimes is bad. You have sectors of the Right and of the Left uniting in the matter. You can be a communist while supporting Trump and that will somehow make sense.

World has turned upside down, which evidences a clear transition period. It’s not 20th Century anymore but people still use references from that time because it’s closest comparison point they have. While new dynamics aren’t yet fully clear to most other that we’re operating under a more multipolar logic.

[PSOL]

You cannot be a communist and stand with Trump or Putin for that matter

[OSR stands with Israel]

I do not care either way.  In terms of WWII history, I am fairly revisionist, and while I still lean toward being more pro-Allies than pro-Axis I am fairly empathetic to the Axis point of view.  Still, this sort of action seems inconsistent with the state values that Trudeau would project.

Do you have any empathy for Japan's occupation of China and mass murder of Chinese civilians?

Objectionable, but not as much as the people who in future war with China would suddenly pull a 180 and become war crimes apologists for the sake of geopolitics. Probably less as Japan fought directly against the U.S., but as the recent Canadian parliament scandal shows there are far more of them willing to wink wink at that sort of stuff than people would like to admit.

The mass murder of 30 million people -- men, women, and children -- is merely "objectionable" to you, with a but?

The practice of throwing babies in the air and catching them with bayonets you would describe as just "objectionable?"

The practice of forcing parents at gunpoint to rape their own daughters before killing them all is just "objectionable?"

Crimes so sickening a literal Nazi, John Rabe, had to intervene to try to stop it out of disgust are just "objectionable?"

And none of this nearly as bad as imaginary war crimes you attribute to an imaginary future imaginarily justified by imaginary people?

deleted

A fanatic can repent of their sins and be just as fanatical in seeking to atome for them. An opportunist on the other hand can never be persuaded that they joined the wrong side in commiting atrocities because they were never right to beign with, simply wearing a mask to fit popular opinion of the time. Pretty self evident to anybody who was reading my post in good faith.

Seeing as though you did not read it in good faith I have to ask did you have to ask, did you have a bad day at work that you feel the need to vent for online? Whatever the case it's certainly no excuse for foaming at the mouth like some rabid animal.

Permanently placed on ignore. Anybody who says just about ANYTHING is worse than Japanese war crimes belongs on that list and certainly isn't worth my time thinking another moment about.

The Nazis were more evil than Imperial Japan

[Red Velvet]

You cannot be a communist and stand with Trump or Putin for that matter

Neither you can be a Nazi and be morally against expansionism or imperialism but we’re seeing all sort of “exceptions” these days as evidenced by the Canadian ovation of this guy.

So what the hell do we know? Everything is possible these days, there are no rules.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

You cannot be a communist and stand with Trump or Putin for that matter

Neither you can be a Nazi and be morally against expansionism or imperialism but we’re seeing all sort of “exceptions” these days as evidenced by the Canadian ovation of this guy.

So what the hell do we know? Everything is possible these days, there are no rules.

This is the part that's just plain wrong:

You can be a communist while supporting Trump and that will somehow make sense.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Is this the longest thread in Atlas history by any chance?

[Red Velvet]

You cannot be a communist and stand with Trump or Putin for that matter

Neither you can be a Nazi and be morally against expansionism or imperialism but we’re seeing all sort of “exceptions” these days as evidenced by the Canadian ovation of this guy.

So what the hell do we know? Everything is possible these days, there are no rules.

This is the part that's just plain wrong:

You can be a communist while supporting Trump and that will somehow make sense.

I can find at least one example from the top of my head:

- USSR era Communists in Russia who support the Ukraine invasion and hope that Trump wins so that aid to Ukraine is cut.

And even outside Russia, there’s tons of different rationalizations people find these days, simply because you can’t label ALL of one person politics under a single identity. It’s way more chaotic than that, but especially in these days of global re-alignment.

We use labels of the past to explain new dynamics because we haven’t yet created all the “labels” to describe the present scenario we are in.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Is this the longest thread in Atlas history by any chance?

Iirc if you go to [More Stats] (at the bottom of the forum homepage) it is the thread with the most posts.

[Storr]

https://twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1706088303970152541?s=20

[lfromnj]

https://twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1706088303970152541?s=20

Yuck, This should be Europe's job .

[America Needs R'hllor]

So the Canadian parliament gave a standing ovation to someone who fought in the Waffen SS.  

I do not care either way.  In terms of WWII history, I am fairly revisionist, and while I still lean toward being more pro-Allies than pro-Axis I am fairly empathetic to the Axis point of view.  Still, this sort of action seems inconsistent with the state values that Trudeau would project.

So, we have an admitted nazi sympathizer here? Why isn’t this ban worthy again?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1706088303970152541?s=20

God bless American bureaucracy. If it were not for them, Vlad's adventure in Ukraine would have succeeded.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://tass.com/economy/1679815

"Russia’s tax revenues up 9% in January-August to over $300 bln — head of tax service"

Yeah, but inflation is most likely around 5%-6% so real inflation-adjusted revenue most likely grew more like 3%-4%.  Still given energy prices fell a lot in early 2023 this seems like a victory.  A weak RUB and a recent surge in world energy prices are key parts of this recent revenue revival.

Is it fair to say that, comparing UA vs RU revenue and GDP data recently, there is more upside for Ukraine in them as a whole?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

https://tass.com/economy/1679815

"Russia’s tax revenues up 9% in January-August to over $300 bln — head of tax service"

Yeah, but inflation is most likely around 5%-6% so real inflation-adjusted revenue most likely grew more like 3%-4%.  Still given energy prices fell a lot in early 2023 this seems like a victory.  A weak RUB and a recent surge in world energy prices are key parts of this recent revenue revival.

Is it fair to say that, comparing UA vs RU revenue and GDP data recently, there is more upside for Ukraine in them as a whole?

Sure, it's a poorer country receiving a lot of foreign aid.

[CumbrianLefty]

"Not caring" about maybe the justest major war in recorded human history is no better than actually being pro-Axis really. Indeed, in practice it arguably amounts to pretty much the same thing.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

The Black Sea Fleet has now followed the Second Pacific Squadron in having its commander killed by the enemy.

[Hindsight was 2020]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/jewish-group-demands-apology-after-mps-honoured-man-who-fought-for-nazis-1.6575593
Might as well post here, seems the entire Canadian parliament stood up and clapped for a possible Nazi collaborator from Ukraine who now lives in Canada.

Yeah, I saw this on Brazilian media. It was NOT a good look for Canada at all to receive this Hardcore Actual Nazi, imagine all going to clap for him. They all looked either dumb/foolish or ill-intentioned.

I’ve seen this being used as validation that Anti-Russia hate is tied to Nazi Anti-Communist hate for the USSR since they defeated them in WW2. And Russia is perceived as the direct heir of the Soviet Union. The left is already running with the “Liberals would rather work with Nazis to go against Communists” rhetoric.

Impressive how historical weight matters a lot even in the present. Russia isn’t a leftist government at all but because they defeated Nazis as the USSR, progressives take very seriously any claim about nazism coming from them.

Mix that with the fact that there’s some level of truth in what Russia says about Ukraine - even if it’s a generalization and still doesn’t justify an outright invasion - and the chaos in all sides of the political spectrum is guaranteed. Which is why everyone should simply stop trying to politically label people based on their opinion of this specific matter lol

You have Liberals standing with and endorsing Nazis in order to own Russian imperialists but everything under some weird Anti-Communist resentment undertones. You have Progressive Leftists being sympathetic towards Nationalism and Social Conservatives in order to own the Liberals hypocrisy. You have United States and Bush Establishment Republicans acting like it thinks starting wars to topple regimes is bad. You have sectors of the Right and of the Left uniting in the matter. You can be a communist while supporting Trump and that will somehow make sense.

World has turned upside down, which evidences a clear transition period. It’s not 20th Century anymore but people still use references from that time because it’s closest comparison point they have. While new dynamics aren’t yet fully clear to most other that we’re operating under a more multipolar logic.

🙄

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1706010076924821632
https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1706237220758147200
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1706288138992091548
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1706259000633786507
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1706261128202908036
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1706281315224387665

[Hindsight was 2020]

https://twitter.com/rsrobert78/status/1706319297520222586?s=12
Taking Novoprokopivka will be another big step towards (in my opinion) the prize of the counterattack Tokmak

[Red Velvet]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/jewish-group-demands-apology-after-mps-honoured-man-who-fought-for-nazis-1.6575593
Might as well post here, seems the entire Canadian parliament stood up and clapped for a possible Nazi collaborator from Ukraine who now lives in Canada.

Yeah, I saw this on Brazilian media. It was NOT a good look for Canada at all to receive this Hardcore Actual Nazi, imagine all going to clap for him. They all looked either dumb/foolish or ill-intentioned.

I’ve seen this being used as validation that Anti-Russia hate is tied to Nazi Anti-Communist hate for the USSR since they defeated them in WW2. And Russia is perceived as the direct heir of the Soviet Union. The left is already running with the “Liberals would rather work with Nazis to go against Communists” rhetoric.

Impressive how historical weight matters a lot even in the present. Russia isn’t a leftist government at all but because they defeated Nazis as the USSR, progressives take very seriously any claim about nazism coming from them.

Mix that with the fact that there’s some level of truth in what Russia says about Ukraine - even if it’s a generalization and still doesn’t justify an outright invasion - and the chaos in all sides of the political spectrum is guaranteed. Which is why everyone should simply stop trying to politically label people based on their opinion of this specific matter lol

You have Liberals standing with and endorsing Nazis in order to own Russian imperialists but everything under some weird Anti-Communist resentment undertones. You have Progressive Leftists being sympathetic towards Nationalism and Social Conservatives in order to own the Liberals hypocrisy. You have United States and Bush Establishment Republicans acting like it thinks starting wars to topple regimes is bad. You have sectors of the Right and of the Left uniting in the matter. You can be a communist while supporting Trump and that will somehow make sense.

World has turned upside down, which evidences a clear transition period. It’s not 20th Century anymore but people still use references from that time because it’s closest comparison point they have. While new dynamics aren’t yet fully clear to most other that we’re operating under a more multipolar logic.

🙄

C’mon now. Being 100% inflexible on this matter is exactly why embarrassing stuff like Canada welcoming and applauding an Ukrainian Nazi guy from WW2 era in order to own the Russians because “he fought against them in WW2” happens. May it be a warning lesson to you because it happened in Canada but I could totally see the same stuff happening in US based on your politicians stances.

You can acknowledge that Ukraine has a nazi problem politically where these people are in very much in good relations with the political class while still saying it’s wrong to to generalize an entire society through it and that it doesn’t nearly justify an invasion.

Before the invasion, people openly talked about this issue, with US congress even banning some of these Ukrainian nazi militias from receiving arms in 2018 - though that certainly must’ve changed after 2022 based on enemy of my enemy is my friend mentality.

This lack of nuance and a narrative of “all or nothing” approach only hurts your own goals in the long term because average sane person watches what happened in Canada parliament and thinks: “Wow so at least there’s SOME logic behind Russia accusations then!” and they get the increasing impression you people are trying to hide the big elephant in the room.

Whereas if you simply addressed or acknowledged the issue: “Yes, there might be a Nazi emboldening problem in Ukraine since those were who were fighting the Soviets (Russia) back at the day, but that doesn’t justify Russia instrumentalizing it for its own sake through the means of an actual invasion”, most people would simply understand and likely agree with you.