Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[Person Man]

More genocidal talk. Setting up a justification for crimes which will inevitably be revealed.
https://twitter.com/francska1/status/1510898134481788930

Zelensky and the west need to make it a non-negotiable precondition for any talks, that Russia's state media must immediately stop inciting genocide and threatening other countries. It would be immediately deliverable, and would be a tangible sign of compromise.

Russia needs to be denazified.

[NOVA Green]

NYT analysis of satellite images and video footage from Bucha debunks Russian claims.

Longer article, but got to keep it limited....

But a review of videos and satellite imagery by The Times shows that many of the civilians were killed more than three weeks ago, when Russia’s military was in control of the town.

One video filmed by a local council member on April 1 shows multiple bodies scattered along Yablonska Street in Bucha. Satellite images provided to The Times by Maxar Technologies show that at least 11 of those had been on the street since March 11, when Russia, by its own account, occupied the town.

To confirm when the bodies appeared, and when the civilians were likely killed, the Visual Investigations team at The Times conducted a before-and-after analysis of satellite imagery. The images show dark objects of similar size to a human body appearing on Yablonska Street between March 9 and March 11. The objects appear in the precise positions in which the bodies were found after Ukrainian forces reclaimed Bucha, as the footage from April 2 shows. Further analysis shows that the objects remained in those position for over three weeks.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/04/world/europe/bucha-ukraine-bodies.html

[NOVA Green]

Now with Russian forces in full retreat and many areas liberated on multiple fronts yet more stories are coming out about the Russian Occupation regime.

This story from Lotskyne a village somewhere around Mykolaiv.

Much longer article, but still this is important since again it appears to fit a pattern we have seen in many other Russian Occupied parts of Ukraine, regardless of the individual Russian Military Unit or theater of combat.

These are not fake news stories and increasingly appear to look less and less like isolated incidents, but rather a systematic pattern of behavior from regular Russian military units, presumably following orders from above.

When the Russian soldiers came to town, they went door-to-door confiscating residents’ guns, cellphones and sometimes even their homes. They asked everyone to identify the “Nazis” in the neighborhood, also referring to them as “Banderites” — a group of Ukrainian nationalists formed during World War II.

Then, in one southern Ukrainian village, the Russians stormed through the front yard of a 59-year-old math teacher and took him away in their armored vehicle, his wife said.

Tatiana Bozhiko said they accused her husband, Serhii, of sympathizing with Ukraine’s right-wing Azov Battalion. But Serhii never served in the military or belonged to any militias, she said. Tatiana suspected his real crime was that he had the most pro-Ukrainian viewpoints in town and didn’t hide them.

When Tatiana saw her husband the next day, his face was covered in bruises and his arm was in a sling, she said. He had been shot in the elbow. The Russians still didn’t release him.

In Lotskyne, a farming village of some 2,000 people, Tatiana Bozhiko continued searching for her husband even after the Russians suddenly left the area on March 18. Her neighbors found his dead body buried the next morning. She said they spotted the grave because one broken arm was sticking up from the freshly piled mound of dirt.

Serhii’s corpse was so mangled that the local doctor didn’t let his wife see it. Her son, Volodya, said pictures of the body he reviewed later showed Serhii had multiple gunshot wounds and broken limbs, indicating that he was probably tortured before he was killed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/04/russia-ukraine-war-news-putin-live-updates/#link-33B65FVLBNE5VO3I63A4EIACDQ

[Virginiá]

Plot twist. Western official: "My understanding is that tanks & jets will not be supplied, partly because...they have this offensive dimension...but also...would not be particularly relevant... what the Americans have told us is that they are not minded to give [MBTs] to Ukraine"

Yes, because Ukraine is going to storm Moscow with a few hundred Soviet-era T-72 tanks.

[dead0man]

[Tintrlvr]

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1510695804750766093

The Russian Orthodox Church has always been a tool used by those in power. Say what you will about the Catholic Church, but it represented an actual separate node of power throughout much of Western European Medieval history and thus could serve as a counterbalance against rulers who pushed their luck. The Orthodox Church is a glorified puppet institution.

So i.e., not really a church? Not to be hyperbolic, but a Christian Church that can't be an independent and powerful force in society that is separate from the Government can't really be a church, can it?

I mean, this was the fundamental reason the Catholic and Orthodox churches separated in the first place: The Byzantine (Roman) Emperors thought they should have control over the church, and the Popes thought they should have control over the church. There were other doctrinal reasons of course that made the split more theological nominally, but in practice the real dispute was whether the Emperor (through appointment of religious officials) or the Pope (independently) was the supreme religious power in Christianity. So it should be hardly surprising that Orthodox churches today remain highly reliant on secular power, even though there are no more Roman emperors to claim legitimacy over the church. It's pretty unfair to say that the entire branch of Orthodoxy is invalid, though. It's just a different model of Christianity.

[GoTfan]

Plot twist. Western official: "My understanding is that tanks & jets will not be supplied, partly because...they have this offensive dimension...but also...would not be particularly relevant... what the Americans have told us is that they are not minded to give [MBTs] to Ukraine"

Yes, because Ukraine is going to storm Moscow with a few hundred Soviet-era T-72 tanks.

This is pathetic. If the Ukrainians need tanks, then give them the bloody tanks!

[NOVA Green]

Apologies if this has already been discussed previously, but it looks like Russia might well be suspended from the UN Human Rights Council in the very near future:

British United Nations Ambassador Barbara Woodward voiced support Monday for the United States’ call to suspend Russia from the U.N. Human Rights Council after images emerged appearing to show Russian atrocities against civilians in Bucha.

Suspending Russia from the Human Rights Council would require the support of at least two-thirds of the U.N. General Assembly’s 193 members. Woodward said she expected to accomplish that, noting 141 nations had voted to condemn the invasion.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/04/russia-ukraine-war-news-putin-live-updates/#link-7S7W2GOGZJASTLX2MEX7IOBFIQ

[NOVA Green]

And yet more reports from Bucha.... per The Wall Street Journal:

Three days after Ukrainian forces retook Bucha, people across town continued to share accounts of occupation.

A group of people gathering outside a kindergarten said Russian troops had evicted them from their homes, which were now destroyed. They lived in the school basement.

Tatiana Aleksandrovna said a Russian soldier had shot a woman standing near her. “I looked at the brains lying on the floor.”

She spoke of other cruelties. “They took away all young girls, especially blondes,” she said. “I smeared my face with mud and stuffed rags under my clothes to look fat and ugly.”

Two crosses made of sticks were stuck in the dirt. Two men, civilians, Ms. Aleksandrovna said, had been shot and left for dead. Their neighbors buried them by a row of parked cars.

[Person Man]

These people are like animals between the way they live and how dangerous they are to other forms of life. The Russian Army is basically a giant retarded wolf pack or some sort of great Mongoloid Horde.

And if Russian soldiers are just hiding in the woods, maybe Ukrainians can find them this way-

[Badger]

Viktor Orban, having won a landslide victory, says that Zelensky was an "opponent" he defeated in his campaign. He now has a huge mandate of the Hungarian people behind him. How long can the EU "united front" last? Don't they need unanimous consent to do anything?

Hungary's authoritarian leader and longtime Russian ally, Viktor Orban, has declared victory in the country's parliamentary elections, clinching a fourth consecutive term in power.

Orban's Fidesz party had a commanding lead with 71% of the votes counted, Hungary's national elections board said on Sunday evening.

The election campaign was dominated by Moscow's invasion of Ukraine, which put Orban's lengthy association with Russian President Vladimir Putin under scrutiny. In his victory speech, Orban called Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky one of the "opponents" he had to overcome during the campaign.

Hungary is heavily reliant on Russian energy and Orban has dodged opportunities to condemn Putin's assault on its neighboring state, complicating the EU's efforts to present a united front against him.

Salivate somewhere else, ghoul.

[Person Man]

Viktor Orban, having won a landslide victory, says that Zelensky was an "opponent" he defeated in his campaign. He now has a huge mandate of the Hungarian people behind him. How long can the EU "united front" last? Don't they need unanimous consent to do anything?

Hungary's authoritarian leader and longtime Russian ally, Viktor Orban, has declared victory in the country's parliamentary elections, clinching a fourth consecutive term in power.

Orban's Fidesz party had a commanding lead with 71% of the votes counted, Hungary's national elections board said on Sunday evening.

The election campaign was dominated by Moscow's invasion of Ukraine, which put Orban's lengthy association with Russian President Vladimir Putin under scrutiny. In his victory speech, Orban called Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky one of the "opponents" he had to overcome during the campaign.

Hungary is heavily reliant on Russian energy and Orban has dodged opportunities to condemn Putin's assault on its neighboring state, complicating the EU's efforts to present a united front against him.

Salivate somewhere else, ghoul.

Then again, Pax Mongoloidia wont make itself, right?

[Badger]

[quote author=Слава Україні! Героям слава! 🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦 link=topic=469771.msg8547108#msg8547108 date=1649080115 uid=32396]

As several posters above have said - it’s understandable to be absolutely enraged by this - I’d be more worried if you weren’t (*cough* compucomp). I’ll confess where there are some days I want NATO planes to fly over the border and destroy as much Russian equipment in UA as possible. But in the current world order, that’s just not an adult or acceptable move. Escalation is a dangerous game, and not one the West is willing to play with Putin.

I'll largely hold my tongue on this because if I don't I'm in danger of getting banned due to "genocide denial" or something like that, but I read the update on CNN and saw that there were "20 bodies of civilian men" found on the street in Bucha. There were probably around 20 people that got shot dead in Chicago yesterday.

I hope you will have fun dancing in Hell

Or have a thorn cocked badger as a boyfriend for all eternity. This is [inks]ed.
[/quote]

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1510695804750766093

 He is  Rabid nationalist disguised as a Christian. Surely if Jesus's injunction against the wicked using his name in the furtherance of evil is true, then there's a special place in h*** for Kirill.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1510695804750766093

The Russian Orthodox Church has always been a tool used by those in power. Say what you will about the Catholic Church, but it represented an actual separate node of power throughout much of Western European Medieval history and thus could serve as a counterbalance against rulers who pushed their luck. The Orthodox Church is a glorified puppet institution.

 That's not entirely fair. As husband has been demonstrated by not only the vast number of orthodox churches breaking with the Moscow Patriarchate,  But  Russian orthodox churches throughout the world Condemning Russia's invasion, and even hundreds of brave clerics within russia itself, this is all not true.

Now the Russian orthodox church within Russia itself, especially those tied to its current patriarchcoma totes

[Badger]

Based Biden.

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1510996562394103808

I'm all for. once Bush faces them over Iraq.

I hate Bush as much as anyone but piss off with the false equivalence 🤬

[WMS]

That argument would have had more credibility outside the west if it was actually talked about rather than swept under the rug with "whataboutery" being one of the things keeping it in the public conciousness.

In this thread, the issue has been raised and the differences pointed out repeatedly by multiple people. The ones bringing it up both in this thread and in other places are doing it to try and score cheap political points against the West in general and the U.S. in particular while dodging answering any of the questions posed by their tepid to nonexistent support of Ukraine. They’re not interested in an honest examination of the issue, but in using “what about Iraq/Afghanistan” as a deflection from their morally bankrupt stance.

I am supre that you could question the motives of many brining that up, and I am well aware that every situtation is different, that doesn't change that for some people there is never a right time to bring this up.

More importantly though, assuming this somehow ends in Putin facing a war crimes tribunal it will not be an outright victory of international law like many in the west hope for, but also as the stronger lawless West forcing a weaker lawless Russia to break, aka might makes right. By exempting itself from it's own self professed principles and judgement manded down upon other is inevitably tainted as a victor's justice regardless of how well deserved the consequences were, incentivizing efforts across the global south to reduce western leverage over their economies.

The consistent repetition of this issue being brought up particularly in this thread but also in broader media in relation to Ukraine in order to shield Russia from criticism and undermine support for Ukraine certainly makes one wonder about the motives of those involved! Oh, yes, the Global South or as it’s been also referred to, the Developing World. Here, I already examined both the deflection and the supposed unity in the GS/DW and guess what it’s mostly a Russian propaganda campaign with direct support from pro-Russian governments. Which doesn’t exactly lend credibility to those of you who keep trying to forge a false equivalence between the two (or is it three? Tankies have somehow contorted themselves into being on the side of the goddamned Taliban in opposing intervention in Afghanistan) situations. In addition to the dubious rationales used in repeatedly raising the issue, in this thread the issue has repeatedly been discussed. Just because you don’t like the conclusions doesn’t mean it wasn’t discussed seriously. But bringing Iraq up in order to give cover to Russia is…despicable, I would say.

Oh yes did you notice that the GS/DW isn’t remotely on the same page on this? See the link above.

The lawless West? Based on what? There have been two basic principles in the system of international law set up after WWII: don’t annex other countries by force and don’t commit genocide. The latter hasn’t always been adhered to but the former was about the only law actually adhered to…well, except for Russia. They’re the ones engaging in might makes right. Drawing a moral equivalence between Russia and the West…are you fucking serious?! What bullshit is this? Goddamn, do you tankies keep spawning from a basement somewhere? I - and others - have already had this discussion with the Brazilian and New Jerseyite fascists. Your position of equivalence sucked then and sucks now, except you suck even harder because the evidence keeps pouring in of how utterly much you suck. Have you noticed the emerging genocidal actions of Russia? Remember this? Or this? Or all the other atrocities posted in this thread? Read some human rights reports before trying to draw false equivalences.

[Person Man]

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1510695804750766093

 He is  Rabbit nationalist disguised as a Christian. Surely if Jesus's injunction against the wicked using his name in the furtherance of evil is true, then there's a special place in h*** for Kirill.

Isn’t that the 7th or 8th circle of Hell?

[Storr]

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1511082454471303169?s=20&t=flpjWOzyP57A1n...

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1511093990237614089?s=20&t=flpjWOzyP57A1n...

[2952-0-0]

Russia needs to be denazified.

A historical irony is that the Allies did a half-hearted job denazifying Germany. They (both the west and the Soviets) realized they needed people to run their parts of Germany, so they quietly installed many senior Nazis in positions of power in the new post-war governments. West Germany only had its cultural reckoning in 1968, but East Germany never quite did. Denazifying would have to be done by the nation's own citizens.

If there's any hope, it's the younger generation of Russians, whom polls indicate have a similar mindset with same-generation Europeans than older generation Russians. Putin's propagandists know that they've lost the youth.

The lawless West? Based on what? There have been two basic principles in the system of international law set up after WWII: don’t annex other countries by force and don’t commit genocide. The latter hasn’t always been adhered to but the former was about the only law actually adhered to…well, except for Russia. They’re the ones engaging in might makes right. Drawing a moral equivalence between Russia and the West…are you fucking serious?! What bullshit is this? Goddamn, do you tankies keep spawning from a basement somewhere? I - and others - have already had this discussion with the Brazilian and New Jerseyite fascists. Your position of equivalence sucked then and sucks now, except you suck even harder because the evidence keeps pouring in of how utterly much you suck. Have you noticed the emerging genocidal actions of Russia? Remember this? Or this? Or all the other atrocities posted in this thread? Read some human rights reports before trying to draw false equivalences.

To be fair, the complaint from many in the developing world that the west cared far more about Ukraine than about many other wars in the Middle East or Africa isn't without merit. Many Arabs complained that Putin committed the same war crimes in Syria, but these barely received any attention in the west. Worse still, western countries are selling offensive weapons to Saudi Arabia, which is committing obscenities in Yemen which are just as bad as in Ukraine, and has been doing so for seven years. The only mitigating factor against western complicity is that the Saudi army has proven to be even more corrupt and incompetent than the Russian army.

[Yoda]

Apologies if this has already been discussed previously, but it looks like Russia might well be suspended from the UN Human Rights Council in the very near future:

British United Nations Ambassador Barbara Woodward voiced support Monday for the United States’ call to suspend Russia from the U.N. Human Rights Council after images emerged appearing to show Russian atrocities against civilians in Bucha.

Suspending Russia from the Human Rights Council would require the support of at least two-thirds of the U.N. General Assembly’s 193 members. Woodward said she expected to accomplish that, noting 141 nations had voted to condemn the invasion.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/04/russia-ukraine-war-news-putin-live-updates/#link-7S7W2GOGZJASTLX2MEX7IOBFIQ

Do we know if the process to remove them from the Security Council (if there is one) is similar to this?

[Yoda]

I wish all the foreign chickenhawks cheering and hoping for further escalation in Ukraine (on both sides) get transported to the frontlines in the uniform of their choice. Accusing those of us who support harsh sanctions against Russia and continued arming of Ukraine of either going along with a hot war or essentially endorsing war crimes is straight out of the Rumsfeld/Cheney neoconservative march to war and 'You're either with us, or you're a terrorist' playbook.

The goal here should be to get rid of Putin and try to establish a working democracy but all of that work has to be done by Russians, voluntarily. We can encourage them with sanctions and information warfare but unless you want to start a war that would essentially turn Ukraine into an inhospitable wasteland and assist Putin in snatching victory from the jaws of defeat then the most sensible thing to do is to maintain course.

This isn't 1939 and as horrific as Russia is for a multitude of reasons they are not Nazi Germany.

The Ukrainians can fight the Russians.

They don't need us to be there fighting for them.

What they need from us are war supplies: fighter aircrafts, surface to air missiles, etc.

Sure, and I'm in favor of giving them pretty much anything they ask for to defend themselves. Hell, I think the EU needs to go even further and ban Russian gas imports. Economic pain is a small price to pay to punish horrific war crimes.

But the keyboard warriors calling for escalation with vapid allusions to Chamberlain and 1939 need  a reality check and a cold shower. Directly intervening would only allow Putin to paint this as the 'Russia v. the West' conflict he so desperately wants rather than a universally condemned and botched military excursion.

Straw man argument overall. Do better.

The bolded part in particular he is already doing.

[Cashew]

That argument would have had more credibility outside the west if it was actually talked about rather than swept under the rug with "whataboutery" being one of the things keeping it in the public conciousness.

In this thread, the issue has been raised and the differences pointed out repeatedly by multiple people. The ones bringing it up both in this thread and in other places are doing it to try and score cheap political points against the West in general and the U.S. in particular while dodging answering any of the questions posed by their tepid to nonexistent support of Ukraine. They’re not interested in an honest examination of the issue, but in using “what about Iraq/Afghanistan” as a deflection from their morally bankrupt stance.

I am supre that you could question the motives of many brining that up, and I am well aware that every situtation is different, that doesn't change that for some people there is never a right time to bring this up.

More importantly though, assuming this somehow ends in Putin facing a war crimes tribunal it will not be an outright victory of international law like many in the west hope for, but also as the stronger lawless West forcing a weaker lawless Russia to break, aka might makes right. By exempting itself from it's own self professed principles and judgement manded down upon other is inevitably tainted as a victor's justice regardless of how well deserved the consequences were, incentivizing efforts across the global south to reduce western leverage over their economies.

The consistent repetition of this issue being brought up particularly in this thread but also in broader media in relation to Ukraine in order to shield Russia from criticism and undermine support for Ukraine certainly makes one wonder about the motives of those involved! Oh, yes, the Global South or as it’s been also referred to, the Developing World. Here, I already examined both the deflection and the supposed unity in the GS/DW and guess what it’s mostly a Russian propaganda campaign with direct support from pro-Russian governments. Which doesn’t exactly lend credibility to those of you who keep trying to forge a false equivalence between the two (or is it three? Tankies have somehow contorted themselves into being on the side of the goddamned Taliban in opposing intervention in Afghanistan) situations. In addition to the dubious rationales used in repeatedly raising the issue, in this thread the issue has repeatedly been discussed. Just because you don’t like the conclusions doesn’t mean it wasn’t discussed seriously. But bringing Iraq up in order to give cover to Russia is…despicable, I would say.

Oh yes did you notice that the GS/DW isn’t remotely on the same page on this? See the link above.

The lawless West? Based on what? There have been two basic principles in the system of international law set up after WWII: don’t annex other countries by force and don’t commit genocide. The latter hasn’t always been adhered to but the former was about the only law actually adhered to…well, except for Russia. They’re the ones engaging in might makes right. Drawing a moral equivalence between Russia and the West…are you fucking serious?! What bullshit is this? Goddamn, do you tankies keep spawning from a basement somewhere? I - and others - have already had this discussion with the Brazilian and New Jerseyite fascists. Your position of equivalence sucked then and sucks now, except you suck even harder because the evidence keeps pouring in of how utterly much you suck. Have you noticed the emerging genocidal actions of Russia? Remember this? Or this? Or all the other atrocities posted in this thread? Read some human rights reports before trying to draw false equivalences.

1. You are a hideous liar, I never said they were equivalent, I have never endorsed the soviet invasions of 1956, 1968, or supported this war and you know that.

2. The reality is that there would be a lot less tankies and whataboutery today if the bad guys didn't walk away like nothing happened, a fully self inflicted wound. If Putin is defeated it would be because of a power imbalance between the west and Russia, a power inbalance large enough to ensure that Anerican politicians and members of the military are exempt from any serious international accountability for war crimes. It's not just the US, the UK continues to defy international law in the chagos islands while wailing about the south China sea. Yes the west is lawless, not to the extent of wanting to annex a country but shooting the messenger in the past is precisely why they continue to spring up at such inoportune moment like now.

[WMS]

To be fair, the complaint from many in the developing world that the west cared far more about Ukraine than about many other wars in the Middle East or Africa isn't without merit. Many Arabs complained that Putin committed the same war crimes in Syria, but these barely received any attention in the west. Worse still, western countries are selling offensive weapons to Saudi Arabia, which is committing obscenities in Yemen which are just as bad as in Ukraine, and has been doing so for seven years. The only mitigating factor against western complicity is that the Saudi army has proven to be even more corrupt and incompetent than the Russian army.

Let’s see: those of us who did want to “do something” about Syria, Yemen, and so forth have consistently been vilified, both on this forum and in the wider world, as a bunch of warmongering neoconservative (or is it neoliberal?) imperialistic chauvinistic running dogs by the very same people making those complaints. They can’t have it both ways: you want Western intervention or not?

In Yemen, the Houthis are every bit as bad as the Saudis, and the Iranians are every bit as bad as both of them for their intervening to oppose the closest thing to popular representative government Yemen has had in many decades. Or did we forget the Houthis joined up with the former dictator to try and overthrow the not-as-repressive government that succeeded him? Yemen is not quite the slam-dunk example of Western hypocrisy you think it is. The Saudis have been horrific, but their opponents are every bit as bloody - check some human rights reports…

In Syria, the opposition has been a mixed bag of factions but the Assad regime has been outright genocidal, backed by - hey, I’ll be! - Iran and Russia. Or do the same people who go into hysterics at the thought of ever opposing Russia in Ukraine suddenly support doing so in Syria?

There is a lack of good faith in the arguments they make.

[WMS]

That argument would have had more credibility outside the west if it was actually talked about rather than swept under the rug with "whataboutery" being one of the things keeping it in the public conciousness.

In this thread, the issue has been raised and the differences pointed out repeatedly by multiple people. The ones bringing it up both in this thread and in other places are doing it to try and score cheap political points against the West in general and the U.S. in particular while dodging answering any of the questions posed by their tepid to nonexistent support of Ukraine. They’re not interested in an honest examination of the issue, but in using “what about Iraq/Afghanistan” as a deflection from their morally bankrupt stance.

I am supre that you could question the motives of many brining that up, and I am well aware that every situtation is different, that doesn't change that for some people there is never a right time to bring this up.

More importantly though, assuming this somehow ends in Putin facing a war crimes tribunal it will not be an outright victory of international law like many in the west hope for, but also as the stronger lawless West forcing a weaker lawless Russia to break, aka might makes right. By exempting itself from it's own self professed principles and judgement manded down upon other is inevitably tainted as a victor's justice regardless of how well deserved the consequences were, incentivizing efforts across the global south to reduce western leverage over their economies.

The consistent repetition of this issue being brought up particularly in this thread but also in broader media in relation to Ukraine in order to shield Russia from criticism and undermine support for Ukraine certainly makes one wonder about the motives of those involved! Oh, yes, the Global South or as it’s been also referred to, the Developing World. Here, I already examined both the deflection and the supposed unity in the GS/DW and guess what it’s mostly a Russian propaganda campaign with direct support from pro-Russian governments. Which doesn’t exactly lend credibility to those of you who keep trying to forge a false equivalence between the two (or is it three? Tankies have somehow contorted themselves into being on the side of the goddamned Taliban in opposing intervention in Afghanistan) situations. In addition to the dubious rationales used in repeatedly raising the issue, in this thread the issue has repeatedly been discussed. Just because you don’t like the conclusions doesn’t mean it wasn’t discussed seriously. But bringing Iraq up in order to give cover to Russia is…despicable, I would say.

Oh yes did you notice that the GS/DW isn’t remotely on the same page on this? See the link above.

The lawless West? Based on what? There have been two basic principles in the system of international law set up after WWII: don’t annex other countries by force and don’t commit genocide. The latter hasn’t always been adhered to but the former was about the only law actually adhered to…well, except for Russia. They’re the ones engaging in might makes right. Drawing a moral equivalence between Russia and the West…are you fucking serious?! What bullshit is this? Goddamn, do you tankies keep spawning from a basement somewhere? I - and others - have already had this discussion with the Brazilian and New Jerseyite fascists. Your position of equivalence sucked then and sucks now, except you suck even harder because the evidence keeps pouring in of how utterly much you suck. Have you noticed the emerging genocidal actions of Russia? Remember this? Or this? Or all the other atrocities posted in this thread? Read some human rights reports before trying to draw false equivalences.

1. You are a hideous liar, I never said they were equivalent, I have never endorsed the soviet invasions of 1956, 1968, or supported this war and you know that.

2. The reality is that there would be a lot less tankies and whataboutery today if the bad guys didn't walk away like nothing happened, a fully self inflicted wound. If Putin is defeated it would be because of a power imbalance between the west and Russia, a power inbalance large enough to ensure that Anerican politicians and members of the military are exempt from any serious international accountability for war crimes. It's not just the US, the UK continues to defy international law in the chagos islands while wailing about the south China sea. Yes the west is lawless, not to the extent of wanting to annex a country but shooting the messenger in the past is precisely why they continue to spring up at such inoportune moment like now.

1. No, actually, I knew nothing of your other stances and was responding only to what you posted, which indeed said both the West and Russia were operating under might makes right principles. You drew the equivalency.

2. Ok, you’re calling the U.S. “bad guys”, using the very same Manichean language that is being decried by all of the same people that insist on drawing out “both sides” comparisons to oppose the idea that there is a moral distinction between Russia in Ukraine and America in Iraq. That seems a bit hypocritical. There would be no less tankies and whataboutery in any event because as Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and their response to it have indicated they are intellectually and morally bankrupt raving anti-Western and especially anti-American loons. Or did you not notice how the tankies’ favorite countries all are on Russia’s side?

2b. If you cannot see any difference between how the West acted in Iraq and Russia is acting in Ukraine, then you’re a tankie or Trumpist nut. If you do see a difference, then why are you drawing an equivalence between the two cases? I have consistently noticed this attitude on the tankie left that paints the U.S.’ actions in Iraq with a broad brush that declares them to be on the same level as, say, the Chinese in Xinjiang, as an article of near-religious faith. Oh wait, the tankie left doesn’t think the Chinese are doing anything wrong. Well, pick another genocide from the list, I suppose. But your words indicate that the only international accountability you would consider to be “serious” would be automatic guilty verdicts before a kangaroo court. I’m sure the U.N. Human Rights Council could fill that role. Because an actual free and fair court trial would be a lot less clear-cut than you think. Actual war crimes should be prosecuted, but not by biased courts. And perhaps you could throw in all the other war criminals out there in the world, but that would include people tankies love so I guess you really just want Americans on trial. I mentioned the Chagos Islands myself as an injustice in another thread so no gotcha there.

Why look there you’re already accomplishing your goal of deflecting attention from what the Russians are doing in Ukraine in this thread! Aren’t you proud?