Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[CumbrianLefty]

Bombing hospitals is the sort of thing Russia does in wars, and has for a very long time.

It has naff all to do with "red lines".

[Torie]

NR is very anti Putin and pro Ukraine but in an editorial writes:

Say No to  No Fly Zone

https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/03/say-no-to-a-no-fly-zone/#slide-1

The rag's coverage of the war I have found to be excellent FWIW.

And CNN has a video of a young Russian man who lives in Ukraine and has been bombed, but his Dad in Russia does not believe him - the Russian propaganda is that effective. So the young man has started a movement to have sons and daughters in Ukraine call their parents back home to get the word out.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/03/09/russia-propaganda-ukraine-war-vladimir-putin-newday-vpx.cnn

[Antonio the Sixth]

I understand opposition to a no-fly zone. I understand that we don't want to actively initiate war with Russia. I don't necessarily agree with the logic, but I understand it.

What I don't understand is why we aren't doing LITERALLY EVERYTHING short of that to support Ukraine. That's the difference between prudence and cowardice.

[Torie]

I understand opposition to a no-fly zone. I understand that we don't want to actively initiate war with Russia. I don't necessarily agree with the logic, but I understand it.

What I don't understand is why we aren't doing LITERALLY EVERYTHING short of that to support Ukraine. That's the difference between prudence and cowardice.

Make a list of what the US should be doing but isn't.

[GoTfan]

Talks in Turkey have collapsed, as per The Guardian.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I understand opposition to a no-fly zone. I understand that we don't want to actively initiate war with Russia. I don't necessarily agree with the logic, but I understand it.

What I don't understand is why we aren't doing LITERALLY EVERYTHING short of that to support Ukraine. That's the difference between prudence and cowardice.

Make a list of what the US should be doing but isn't.

Help send the f**king fighter jets??? We've been talking about it for the past 24 hours.

Also by "we" I'm also talking about European countries, to be clear.

[ugabug]

https://twitter.com/AlexGabuev/status/1501713416574193673?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7C...

[Middle-aged Europe]

Talks in Turkey have collapsed, as per The Guardian.

Well, they've agreed to meet again, although apart from that they couldn't agree on anything else today.

[Torie]

Bullet points from a guy in the know supposedly to brighten up your day, not:

1. Putin has always been secretive and conspiratorial but “What I have heard about the president’s behavior over the past two years is alarming. His seclusion and inaccessibility, his deep belief that Russian domination over Ukraine must be restored and his decision to surround himself with ideologues and sycophants have all helped to bring Europe to its most dangerous moment since World War II.” It has not helped that Putin is even more paranoid about Covid than I am.

2.  Thus his rat pack is basically down to one Mr. Kovalchuk, who ala Muon2 holds a doctorate in physics, but unlike Muon2 is also “an ideologue, subscribing to a worldview that combines Orthodox Christian mysticism, anti-American conspiracy theories and hedonism.” The hedonism and mysticism bit sounds interesting. Is that "a thing" in the Orthodox Church?

3. “The economy, social issues, the coronavirus pandemic, these all annoy Putin. Instead, he and Mr. Kovalchuk obsess over the past.” Yeah, they can be annoying I have to agree, but somebody has to do it. And it sounds about right that Putin does not care much about something as mundane as the standard of living of his people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/10/opinion/putin-russia-ukraine.html

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Russia has now likely lost more troops than the US did in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1501860795843416068

[Person Man]

Bullet points from a guy in the know supposedly to brighten up your day, not:

1. Putin has always been secretive and conspiratorial but “What I have heard about the president’s behavior over the past two years is alarming. His seclusion and inaccessibility, his deep belief that Russian domination over Ukraine must be restored and his decision to surround himself with ideologues and sycophants have all helped to bring Europe to its most dangerous moment since World War II.” It has not helped that Putin is even more paranoid about Covid than I am.

2.  Thus his rat pack is basically down to one Mr. Kovalchuk, who ala Muon2 holds a doctorate in physics, but unlike Muon2 is also “an ideologue, subscribing to a worldview that combines Orthodox Christian mysticism, anti-American conspiracy theories and hedonism.” The hedonism and mysticism bit sounds interesting. Is that "a thing" in the Orthodox Church?

3. “The economy, social issues, the coronavirus pandemic, these all annoy Putin. Instead, he and Mr. Kovalchuk obsess over the past.” Yeah, they can be annoying I have to agree, but somebody has to do it. And it sounds about right that Putin does not care much about something as mundane as the standard of living of his people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/10/opinion/putin-russia-ukraine.html

 If this is the best that Russia can do, why are they even allowed to govern themselves?

[Torie]

And also in the NYT is this outstanding article by the guy who I think coined the word "woke," Ross Douthat. Gosh I wish I had his talent and insight.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/09/opinion/ukraine-russia-invasion-west.html

1. The real politick guy John Mearsheimer, who thinks only the great powers matter, and the rest are but pawns, and the West went wrong when it NATO'ed up Russia's borders rather than team up with Russia to keep China contained, with one exception, had it all wrong. Putin does not care about NATO, he wants Ukraine part of Russia NATO or no NATO, and Ukraine has shown that "pawns" can matter more then JM thinks. I mean they have proven to be a real pain in the butt to Putin.  The idea that great power leaders can be counted on to be rational actors is also wrong. The planet is not a game of Risk.

2. It is wrong however to toss real politick entirely into the dust bin however. China, India and the Gulf states are all breaking bad, so that is a concern.

I am not doing the article justice, but the above are a couple of take aways.

[Middle-aged Europe]

German Bishops' Conference of the Roman Catholic Church supports arms shipments to Ukraine arguing that they're meant for self-defense.


https://twitter.com/BrigitteSaar777/status/1501914834744614913

[Person Man]

And also in the NYT is this outstanding article by the guy who I think coined the word "woke," Ross Douthat. Gosh I wish I had his talent and insight.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/09/opinion/ukraine-russia-invasion-west.html

1. The real politick guy John Mearsheimer, who thinks only the great powers matter, and the rest are but pawns, and the West went wrong when it NATO'ed up Russia's borders rather than team up with Russia to keep China contained, with one exception, had it all wrong. Putin does not care about NATO, he wants Ukraine part of Russia NATO or no NATO, and Ukraine has shown that "pawns" can matter more then JM thinks. I mean they have proven to be a real pain in the butt to Putin.  The idea that great power leaders can be counted on to be rational actors is also wrong. The planet is not a game or Risk.

2. It is wrong however to toss real politick entirely into the dust bin however. China, India and the Gulf states are all breaking bad, so that is a concern.

I am not doing the article justice, but the above are a couple of take aways.

Realism is for people who are boring, lazy, or both.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1501577368049176584

[rc18]

German Bishops' Conference of the Roman Catholic Church supports arms shipments to Ukraine arguing that they're meant for self-defense.


https://twitter.com/BrigitteSaar777/status/1501914834744614913

Weak.

Francis should declare a crusade like the good old days.

[Torie]

The above squib BRTD put up ties into the notion that Russians are just abandoning their equipment, after they fail to find a bunch of Nazis running around or something.

Free airline tickets out to a country of your choice in exchange for a tank.

Zelensky looks like a got a few hours of sleep and a shave. His being but 43 is a big bonus here. The even bigger bonus is his fluency in Russian of course. One speech for Ukraine, another for Russia. No wonder Putin wants him dead so bad.

[Person Man]

German Bishops' Conference of the Roman Catholic Church supports arms shipments to Ukraine arguing that they're meant for self-defense.


https://twitter.com/BrigitteSaar777/status/1501914834744614913

Weak.

Francis should declare a crusade like the good old days.

We can party like its 1204!

[Sir Mohamed]

Russia has now likely lost more troops than the US did in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1501860795843416068

Would be huge, though I'm still skeptical. Ukrainian figures are most likely an exaggeration to boost their fighting moral. Didn't the US estimate Russian losses at around 4k 2-3 days ago? Seems more plausible to me.

Anyway, it speaks volumes how Putin is ready to send his soldiers to death for his delusional Greater Russia fantasies.

[Logical]

War crime apologia is always vile but seeing an official embassy account engage in it is on another level.

https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy/status/1501913563073556498
https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy/status/1501916418245279746
https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy/status/1501919224201158656

[Torie]

Russia has now likely lost more troops than the US did in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1501860795843416068

Would be huge, though I'm still skeptical. Ukrainian figures are most likely an exaggeration to boost their fighting moral. Didn't the US estimate Russian losses at around 4k 2-3 days ago? Seems more plausible to me.

Anyway, it speaks volumes how Putin is ready to send his soldiers to death for his delusional Greater Russia fantasies.

Well it said it was from a US official, so give yourself permission to be a tad optimistic here.

[rc18]

Russia has now likely lost more troops than the US did in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1501860795843416068

Would be huge, though I'm still skeptical. Ukrainian figures are most likely an exaggeration to boost their fighting moral. Didn't the US estimate Russian losses at around 4k 2-3 days ago? Seems more plausible to me.

Anyway, it speaks volumes how Putin is ready to send his soldiers to death for his delusional Greater Russia fantasies.

The US estimates are conservative, they've already said that.

The Ukrainians obviously aren't going to be lowballing their estimates, but don't be surprised if the real figure is somewhere between the two.

I mean, the Russians wouldn't be as bogged down as they are with just a couple of thousand KIA.

[7,052,770]

the guy who I think coined the word "woke," Ross Douthat.

This has to be some kind of joke, but I just don't get it

[Torie]

the guy who I think coined the word "woke," Ross Douthat.

This has to be some kind of joke, but I just don't get it

It was not meant as a joke.

https://www.heritage.org/progressivism/heritage-explains/woke-corporate-capitalism

[dead0man]

So I was just skimming through the Russia invades Georgia thread we had and it reminded me that that invasion took place around the same time as an Olympics in Beijing.  Weird heh?