Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1510402861536055302?s=20&t=1_G_x5H9...

https://twitter.com/SamRamani2/status/1510892851915284482?s=20&t=1_G_x5H9_NT...

Good on Poland; and there needs to be some real answers and accountability before Russia is ever let back into the international community again in a significant way. Period.

[WMS]

Just…
https://twitter.com/asamiterajima/status/1510658810003742725?s=21&t=B7r8I0JT...

Oh I forgot the Russian involvement in Libya.
https://twitter.com/olganyc1211/status/1510746133747879936?s=21&t=B7r8I0JTZY...

One of the prime supporters of autocracy:
https://twitter.com/duty2warn/status/1510796594060398595?s=21&t=B7r8I0JTZYAS...

Blah blah unverified Ukrainian propaganda blah blah wishcasting blah blah fuck off.
https://twitter.com/iaponomarenko/status/1510537614805319681?s=21&t=B7r8I0JT...

[Yoda]

Ah so we are seeing it get closer and closer to the Holocaust. Wonder how much more the doves can stomach. There was no red line, they prefer appeasement at all costs.

The Holocaust was my thought upon first seeing these images as well. All my life when learning about WWII and the Holocaust I heard/saw the words, "Never Again." What trite, meaningless bulls***. If leaders/nations don't mean it when they utter those words, then don't f****** say it. This isn't even the first time the civilized world stood by while some form of ethnic cleansing has happened since WWII. Rwanda, Bosnia/Kosovo, Chechnya, now this.

It turns out "Never Again" all this time really meant,


*offer only applies in continental Europe. Middle East, African and Asian nations may not apply for "Never Again" protection.

**provided said European nation or ethnicity is a member state of NATO and/or invading country doing the killing does not possess nuclear weapons.

[afleitch]

Comparisons with Nazi Germany are moot because the Russian state does not have the capacity to conquer all of Europe, and, right now, is getting somewhat shockingly clobbered about only a hundred miles from its own borders. In any event, as already noted, there are other historical analogies that are significantly more appropriate. It is a shame that people are not taught about Katyn in most Western education systems, but perhaps they will now.

In this instance, I don't think Katyn is an apt comparison either, given what we know about the focus on civilian or armed civilians. It may be closer to what happened in Srebrenica.

Ultimately Bucha is simply Bucha and hopefully we can get a better picture of what happened there.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

The claim has not yet exceeded the 300-400 massacred civilians - although graves of about 800+ were made nearby, those have not (to my knowledge) been claimed as part of the massacre, and that number could have contained fighters.

Bucha had a pre-war population of about 36K, so the allegation that Russia tried to kill all the fighting age men there should be in some doubt. Perhaps enough fled and/or Russian forces failed to accost everyone they wanted to kill, but my hope is that this was “just” a one-off terror tactic rather than an attempted genocide of all males in the local area.

It’s really grim that the conflict has come to this point so early (Russia usually takes a bit longer to get that nasty in wars), but at least there’s the prospect of survival for some men under their occupation. This deserves a level-headed investigation (and, in the meantime, every game-changing weapon the West can supply).

[Antonio the Sixth]

Keep in mind when ever people always make the point how a regime isnt the Nazis they fail to take into account that the Nazis wouldnt have become the Nazis if they were stopped in the in the late 1930s when the British/French had the ability to stop them.

If this was 1938-1939 I am sure there would be many posters who would say it would be crazy to compare the Nazis to Kaiser's Germany only to realize when it was too late(during the Fall of France) how big of a threat the Nazis really were and how evil they really were.

The lesson we learned from WW2 is that we should not wait for a regime to become the Nazis before taking action.

Most of the American intelligentsia (famously including the New York Times) and to a lesser extent the British and French throughout the 30s did in fact think that Nazis might be slightly unsavory characters but that they weren't as bad as their critics made them out to be and probably had some legitimate concerns, and that their critics were hand-wringing and being hyperbolic. Everything that's being said about Putin's Russia now.

I think a nice example of how mudance this phenomena was among the intelgientis even those who didn't consider themselves anti-semetic is this absolutely amazing Atlantic article from a collumist discussing their marriage interfaith marriage to a jew and the tension it has caused from 1939.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1939/01/i-married-a-jew/306262/

Of course we eventually come to Hitler, Ben and I. In the eyes of Ben, as in the eyes of all his people, Hitler stands for the Jewish equivalent of the Antichrist—a little, strutting monster whose sole purpose and pleasure in life is to flog, imprison, impoverish, humiliate, and plague Israel. Few history books trace the path of persecutions against the Jews as they have occurred throughout the ages. They have occurred in ancient Rome, Poland, Russia, Spain, England, and France, usually whenever Jewry becomes too numerous and too powerful, whenever it becomes, in the eyes of Gentiles, a threat, potential or actual, to Gentile supremacy. I try to tell Ben that Hitler is merely writing another page in a history that will continue so long as the status quo between Jews and Gentiles remains—a status that only the willing shoulders of both protagonists can remove.

But it is hard for Ben to take the long view. He looks upon Hitler as something malignantly unique, and it is no use trying to tell him that a hundred years hence the world will no more call Hitler a swine for expelling the Jews than it does Edward I of England, who did the same thing in the thirteenth century—an expulsion that remained in strict effect until the time of Cromwell, because a hundred years hence another country will be having its Jewish problem, unless…

Yep. This is who we enlightened Westerners were back then. Of course America also pioneered eugenics and practiced racial discrimination that Hitler viewed as a model to emulate. We're not quite brazen today, but the instinct to excuse the atrocities committed by didtant foreign regimes for the sake of convenience is still alive and well with us.

Gotta say though, good on The Atlantic for making this publicly available as an important historical record. It would be easy to just bury it to preserve their brand.

[CumbrianLefty]

https://twitter.com/AnnaMyroniuk/status/1510524144349327360

These people are animals.

They're people. This is what humans have done in basically every war and violent conflict, for all human history and prehistory. It's immoral, but it's very human.All wars are like this. Think Iraq and Afghanistan were squeaky-clean?

No, they were awful.

But nothing like this, and pretending otherwise is the most specious whataboutery.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

https://twitter.com/AnnaMyroniuk/status/1510524144349327360
These people are animals.

They're people. This is what humans have done in basically every war and violent conflict, for all human history and prehistory. It's immoral, but it's very human.All wars are like this. Think Iraq and Afghanistan were squeaky-clean?

No, they were awful.

But nothing like this, and pretending otherwise is the most specious whataboutery.

Tbf, in the initial (failed) stage of the invasion, Russia certainly advertised a quite well-behaved army (that was propaganda, but it’s propaganda they’ve been unable to reproduce because their conduct has gotten worse). The troops acting with restraint around the woman who made the sunflower seeds comment might have been behaving better than various Blackwater contractors in Iraq.

Some of the war crimes are a result of them being falling back on terror tactics in the face of resistance and others a consequence of war almost inevitably getting uglier with time. I suspect Bucha suffered as badly as it did because of racism: it was in Western Ukraine, to which Russia feels less attached.

[AZdude]

I've often wondered what happened to that woman who made the sunflower seeds comment.  The Russians showed restraint at the the time, but once it went viral, who knows what may have happened to her.  Given that she was in a place that fell shortly after the war began (Southern Ukraine?), we may never know.

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1510687681470205955

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1510948838722486273

[Person Man]

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1510687681470205955

At this point, I wouldn't think less of him if he had his men refer every person they capture E-7 or O-2 to the IOC.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1510948838722486273

“Woke Nazis in Ukraine are cancelling Russian soldiers,” in 3, 2, 1…

[Storr]

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1510972603585937410?s=20&t=qGHMrx3...

[certified hummus supporter 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

As several posters above have said - it’s understandable to be absolutely enraged by this - I’d be more worried if you weren’t (*cough* compucomp). I’ll confess where there are some days I want NATO planes to fly over the border and destroy as much Russian equipment in UA as possible. But in the current world order, that’s just not an adult or acceptable move. Escalation is a dangerous game, and not one the West is willing to play with Putin.

I'll largely hold my tongue on this because if I don't I'm in danger of getting banned due to "genocide denial" or something like that, but I read the update on CNN and saw that there were "20 bodies of civilian men" found on the street in Bucha. There were probably around 20 people that got shot dead in Chicago yesterday.

I hope you'll have fun dancing in Hell

[Person Man]

[quote author=Слава Україні! Героям слава! 🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦 link=topic=469771.msg8547108#msg8547108 date=1649080115 uid=32396]

As several posters above have said - it’s understandable to be absolutely enraged by this - I’d be more worried if you weren’t (*cough* compucomp). I’ll confess where there are some days I want NATO planes to fly over the border and destroy as much Russian equipment in UA as possible. But in the current world order, that’s just not an adult or acceptable move. Escalation is a dangerous game, and not one the West is willing to play with Putin.

I'll largely hold my tongue on this because if I don't I'm in danger of getting banned due to "genocide denial" or something like that, but I read the update on CNN and saw that there were "20 bodies of civilian men" found on the street in Bucha. There were probably around 20 people that got shot dead in Chicago yesterday.

I hope you will have fun dancing in Hell
[/quote]

Or have a thorn cocked badger as a boyfriend for all eternity. This is [inks]ed.

[Logical]

More genocidal talk. Setting up a justification for crimes which will inevitably be revealed.
https://twitter.com/francska1/status/1510898134481788930

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1510695804750766093

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

More genocidal talk. Setting up a justification for crimes which will inevitably be revealed.
https://twitter.com/francska1/status/1510898134481788930

I suspect the most bloodthirsty op-eds like this one are published to suggest the brutalities taking place are more humane than they could be. Columnists overshooting soldiers facilitates the soldiers’ attempts to present themselves as merciful.

[Badger]

Anyone who still supports Russia or even both sides this is a absolute coward and should emigrate to Russia. Sorry not sorry.

And it's getting to the point where the West needs to be less concerned about joining in. You can't let someone have carte blanche over a country because of nukes. That is a worrying precedent long-term.

[Middle-aged Europe]

More genocidal talk. Setting up a justification for crimes which will inevitably be revealed.
https://twitter.com/francska1/status/1510898134481788930

That article should have been properly headlined "The case for genocide in Ukraine".

[Oryxslayer]

https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1510908227202002947?s=20&t=WSrXNAVt...

This thread includes an english translation of the article and it's F'ing points. All that's really missing for the historical record are claims that Ukraine should be opened up as Living Space for Russians and Russian enterprise.

[John Dule]

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1510695804750766093

The Russian Orthodox Church has always been a tool used by those in power. Say what you will about the Catholic Church, but it represented an actual separate node of power throughout much of Western European Medieval history and thus could serve as a counterbalance against rulers who pushed their luck. The Orthodox Church is a glorified puppet institution.

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/lapatina_/status/1510991411713347584

[Middle-aged Europe]

https://twitter.com/dwnews/status/1510995048317571078



https://twitter.com/MKuefner/status/1510992063331975181