I am a democrat BUT... The democratic party needs to change.

[coloradocowboi]

I love how every time we get one of these “elitism” woke-scolding lectures (because a moderate lost lol) ppl just act like white = working class when the majority of working class people aren’t white, lean far to the left, and don’t vote because they think democrats are corrupt.

Which is not to say that I don’t think political correctness is a problem for democrats, it obviously is although I’m not really sure what the utility of supposed party supporters making it into a bigger deal is… but the problem is obviously the nepotism, the obsession with chasing white rich people (why is nobody as outraged by the SALT cap as they are #defundthepolice?, both are v unpopular), the constant repeating Republican talking points as if they weren’t already duly noted

We need strong persuasion and turnout operations, but third way centrism fails to meet both of those challenges! It is the political ideology, ironically enough, only of the Harvard elites that you are referencing… only the old ones not the young ones. And yet somehow whenever moderate white Dems lose elections, moderate white men in the media tell us the solution is to… do nothing? Pass no bills? Succumb to Republican talking points about popular policies instead of passing them? Definitional insanity from a community that at best makes up a fifth of the Democratic coalition (when they aren’t voting gop that is) and is used to being the center of attention.

[coloradocowboi]

I love how every time we get one of these “elitism” woke-scolding lectures (because a moderate lost lol) ppl just act like white = working class when the majority of working class people aren’t white, lean far to the left, and don’t vote because they think democrats are corrupt.

Which is not to say that I don’t think political correctness is a problem for democrats, it obviously is although I’m not really sure what the utility of supposed party supporters making it into a bigger deal is… but the problem is obviously the nepotism, the obsession with chasing white rich people (why is nobody as outraged by the SALT cap as they are #defundthepolice?, both are v unpopular), the constant repeating Republican talking points as if they weren’t already duly noted

We need strong persuasion and turnout operations, but third way centrism fails to meet both of those challenges! It is the political ideology, ironically enough, only of the Harvard elites that you are referencing… only the old ones not the young ones. And yet somehow whenever moderate white Dems lose elections, moderate white men in the media tell us the solution is to… do nothing? Pass no bills? Succumb to Republican talking points about popular policies instead of passing them? Definitional insanity from a community that at best makes up a fifth of the Democratic coalition (when they aren’t voting gop that is) and is used to being the center of attention.

Nobody said working class = white. Woke insanity is unpopular with minorities as well, its mostly the rich white socially progressive Warren voters who it appeals to. Focusing on economics and dropping the woke stuff (which does NOT mean ignoring race issues, it just means not being insane and alienating about it) will help with working class voters of ALL races.

No it is not. I don't know where you are getting your opinion from, but I work all day every day with working class, urban POC and nobody cares about wokeness. In fact, most non-whites recognize it for what it is: a racially-tinged, mainstream-media fueled moral panic. It is a cultural problem that most Americans are fully aware has nothing to do with the government.

And how I know that I'm right and you're wrong is the simple fact that there is no evidence that Youngkin or Ciatarelli (sp?) overperformed with these voters and plenty of evidence that turnout in urban precincts was lagging. It's like y'all read an opinion piece (usually written by a white person, always written by a rich person) and think that it's a definitive take. I don't see evidence for that.

Certain aspects of "wokeness," e.g. "abolish the police," heroin needle drop sites, etc. are unpopular. But to make a claim that this is what is sinking the Democrats' chances when even Third f-ing Way says that it's Manchin and Sinema's fault is, as far as I see it, just parroting racist propaganda and leaving critical thinking to the side. And the unfortunate effect of "woke scolding" is that the more a claim is repeated, the more it is assumed to be true even without substantiation.

AOC didn't lose Virginia, Terry McAuliffe did. And when the only thing standing between him and victory is a couple thousand young voters in the DMV and Richmond (which is absolutely true in a high turnout, but low urban turnout election), I'm not going to blame a woman who he intentionally didn't invite to campaign with him for his loss. That is the pinnacle of irrationality and a one-way ticket to the same kind of Gottheimerian divisiveness that is the real problem. Democrats can't be Republican lite and win, and I am so tired of watching that reality play out only to see people reflexively blame the left

[coloradocowboi]

and yes many rural white people are racist. I’d rather have a world in which racism wasn’t central to their political identity and it wasn’t until fairly recently. Plenty of poor Black people are homophobic and anti-Semitic but that doesn’t mean they’re undeserving of economic justice and the same should go for poor white people in Appalachia. Their kids are innocent and deserve a shot at a better life, so do the children of poor people from any race.

This is a much more reasonable position. We can't just go around calling people "deplorable." We can't mock people's desire to know and love a personal God. We are insane, imo, to let the Right get off with moral critiques of social media capitalism.

Democrats need a populist economic message that straight-up ignores the Fox News propaganda to make a simple point to Americans: do you want more or less agency in your life? do you want it to be run by corporations or your community members?

However, we aren't going to do this when the party is mired between the clear path forward, New New Deal populism, and a proven dead end, Clintonite consultant neoliberalism. I sometimes wonder if we would be better off without people like Gottheimer, Spanberger, Sinema, etc. on the team because they muddle our message.

[coloradocowboi]

I love how every time we get one of these “elitism” woke-scolding lectures (because a moderate lost lol) ppl just act like white = working class when the majority of working class people aren’t white, lean far to the left, and don’t vote because they think democrats are corrupt.

Which is not to say that I don’t think political correctness is a problem for democrats, it obviously is although I’m not really sure what the utility of supposed party supporters making it into a bigger deal is… but the problem is obviously the nepotism, the obsession with chasing white rich people (why is nobody as outraged by the SALT cap as they are #defundthepolice?, both are v unpopular), the constant repeating Republican talking points as if they weren’t already duly noted

We need strong persuasion and turnout operations, but third way centrism fails to meet both of those challenges! It is the political ideology, ironically enough, only of the Harvard elites that you are referencing… only the old ones not the young ones. And yet somehow whenever moderate white Dems lose elections, moderate white men in the media tell us the solution is to… do nothing? Pass no bills? Succumb to Republican talking points about popular policies instead of passing them? Definitional insanity from a community that at best makes up a fifth of the Democratic coalition (when they aren’t voting gop that is) and is used to being the center of attention.

Nobody said working class = white. Woke insanity is unpopular with minorities as well, its mostly the rich white socially progressive Warren voters who it appeals to. Focusing on economics and dropping the woke stuff (which does NOT mean ignoring race issues, it just means not being insane and alienating about it) will help with working class voters of ALL races.

No it is not. I don't know where you are getting your opinion from, but I work all day every day with working class, urban POC and nobody cares about wokeness. In fact, most non-whites recognize it for what it is: a racially-tinged, mainstream-media fueled moral panic. It is a cultural problem that most Americans are fully aware has nothing to do with the government.

And how I know that I'm right and you're wrong is the simple fact that there is no evidence that Youngkin or Ciatarelli (sp?) overperformed with these voters and plenty of evidence that turnout in urban precincts was lagging. It's like y'all read an opinion piece (usually written by a white person, always written by a rich person) and think that it's a definitive take. I don't see evidence for that.

Certain aspects of "wokeness," e.g. "abolish the police," heroin needle drop sites, etc. are unpopular. But to make a claim that this is what is sinking the Democrats' chances when even Third f-ing Way says that it's Manchin and Sinema's fault is, as far as I see it, just parroting racist propaganda and leaving critical thinking to the side. And the unfortunate effect of "woke scolding" is that the more a claim is repeated, the more it is assumed to be true even without substantiation.

AOC didn't lose Virginia, Terry McAuliffe did. And when the only thing standing between him and victory is a couple thousand young voters in the DMV and Richmond (which is absolutely true in a high turnout, but low urban turnout election), I'm not going to blame a woman who he intentionally didn't invite to campaign with him for his loss. That is the pinnacle of irrationality and a one-way ticket to the same kind of Gottheimerian divisiveness that is the real problem. Democrats can't be Republican lite and win, and I am so tired of watching that reality play out only to see people reflexively blame the left

I never said we need to be Republican lite, neither did I blame the left. We need to drop woke nonsense, but go full Bernie on economics. We need to campaign on Medicare for All, a living wage, ending corruption, more social spending and generally helping the poor. At the same time we need to ignore social issues entirely, they're losing issues.
The reason why AOC is way less likeable and less likely to win a national election than Bernie is because she talks woke all the time whereas Bernie (especially in 2016) didn't.

I generally agree with you, although I'm a bit more moderate. I'm also a socially conservative person but I think the GOP dropping social issues from their agenda (with the exception of abortion) could benefit the party in the long term if future generations continue with socially progressive trends, while emphasizing religious freedom in contrast to the Dem's anti-religious authoritarianism. I agree that focusing on economics would be the best priority. I'm not sure if going full Berniecrat would be the best idea as there are still plenty of fiscal conservatives who haven't crossed over, but if the GOP wants to become a workers party, it has to abandon neoliberalism and focus on the economic concerns of working people, which it hasn't been doing, despite broken promises in 2016 to do that. I think setting up a Scandanavian-style free market welfare state, breaking up big business/banks, putting the means of production to workers (in contrast to the state or the business owners), widespread private property, and a Warren-style wealth tax are great starts.

This is a lot closer to a position I would endorse. I think dropping BLM entirely is insane, that's our base! But we need more candidates like Raphael Warnock to successfully deliver an economic justice, racial justice message. Ceding faith, God, and morality to the Right was a big mistake and Democrats need to find a way to communicate with faith voters.

[coloradocowboi]

-snip-

This is a lot closer to a position I would endorse. I think dropping BLM entirely is insane, that's our base! But we need more candidates like Raphael Warnock to successfully deliver an economic justice, racial justice message. Ceding faith, God, and morality to the Right was a big mistake and Democrats need to find a way to communicate with faith voters.

Persuasion- Andrew Yang on Why Democrats Are in Crisis

Yang: There's a layer of people who are highly engaged on social media, and who will see the interaction and interpret it in the way that the consultants intend. But the average person in that group may or may not ever see it. There are certain organizations and people that actually do speak for a very large audience. I think the most compelling example of that in this past cycle was Jim Clyburn in South Carolina. Some endorsements mean a great deal. As a candidate, I have to confess it's hard to tell which is which. But it's crystal clear that the Jim Clyburn endorsement ended up swinging the dynamics of the entire race. That's a rarity. For the most part, if you have some person who's part of a community who endorses you, it's not going to move the entire community. But there are a few people that will take their cues from that person. If I recall the Democratic nomination cycle, I don't think that Joe led in a lot of these endorsements, but he got the one that mattered in the form of Jim Clyburn.

Mounk: What's the difference between Jim Clyburn and the many, many endorsements that don't matter?

Yang: There are a lot of voters in South Carolina who aren't that engaged. But they do trust the Clyburns. If Jim Clyburn says, “Joe Biden's our guy,” then a lot of people down there would just say “I trust Jim. Let's go with Joe.” I heard that over and over again in South Carolina. When Clyburn made his endorsement, everyone moved in that direction. That is very, very unusual.

I can't think of an endorsement that would parallel it in Iowa or New Hampshire, in part because the people there are very, very engaged and had been meeting candidates and been making up their own minds for months. With the Asian-American community, I'm not sure that there is a level of engagement or unity where the entire community would move on the basis of any individual organization, because there are so many organizations. But the voters we should be most concerned about are the less engaged voters. The problem right now is that there's a massive bias towards the highly engaged online audience, and it's missing all of these folks who are from poor, more rural, or immigrant communities. They're not sitting there glued to Politico. If someone makes a very basic appeal, then they hear it.

Well, I agree with his diagnosis, but definitely not his prescription for the problem. Which tracks bc Yang is a loser with a losing track record.

What online leftist reads Politico? What he and the "anti-woke" crowd do is create a fictitious portmanteau of very different voting contingencies and then scapegoat it for problems that they themselves have created. The solution is thus twofold:

1. Democrats do need to recruit better quality candidates that fit the districts they are competing in. Candidates like Jared Golden who really defy any categorization as either moderate or progressive, are independent thinkers, and have nuanced policy positions... not New Dems like Gottheimer cuz that is, ironically enough, the kind of candidate that only Politico bro consultant types like. All forms of elitism are a bad look, whether it's left-identitarian woke warriors or neoliberal McKinsey goons. Nominate working class people in working class communities, duh! It's not that hard and obviously works for the GOP - a party whose hostility to workers is a central component of its program.

I also think that this means we rly should not nominate Harris or Buttigieg in 2024, and probably should stick with Biden (and maybe with a new VP).

BUT ALSO

2. Stop the circular firing squad. People like Suozzi and Gottheimer do the GOP's dirty work for them, and anybody who is critical of other Democrats on policy needs to be primaried. "Wokism" and "critical race theory" are racist, Republican dog whistles, and no amount of capitulating to their false concerns will win back racist, suburban voters for us. And it demonstrably depresses youth and minority turnout, which we desperately need. No excuses, the party has to have a more coherent brand identity and being white supremacy lite is not it. Anybody who is a Democrat whining about "wokism" for a dollar needs to be swiftly shut down by party leaders. Do not concede an inch, because even if "wokism" is a real concern it's pointless to talk about when there is no political or policy fix, and when it has absolutely no material, economic, or real impact on anybody's life

[coloradocowboi]

-snip-

This is a lot closer to a position I would endorse. I think dropping BLM entirely is insane, that's our base! But we need more candidates like Raphael Warnock to successfully deliver an economic justice, racial justice message. Ceding faith, God, and morality to the Right was a big mistake and Democrats need to find a way to communicate with faith voters.

Persuasion- Andrew Yang on Why Democrats Are in Crisis

Yang: There's a layer of people who are highly engaged on social media, and who will see the interaction and interpret it in the way that the consultants intend. But the average person in that group may or may not ever see it. There are certain organizations and people that actually do speak for a very large audience. I think the most compelling example of that in this past cycle was Jim Clyburn in South Carolina. Some endorsements mean a great deal. As a candidate, I have to confess it's hard to tell which is which. But it's crystal clear that the Jim Clyburn endorsement ended up swinging the dynamics of the entire race. That's a rarity. For the most part, if you have some person who's part of a community who endorses you, it's not going to move the entire community. But there are a few people that will take their cues from that person. If I recall the Democratic nomination cycle, I don't think that Joe led in a lot of these endorsements, but he got the one that mattered in the form of Jim Clyburn.

Mounk: What's the difference between Jim Clyburn and the many, many endorsements that don't matter?

Yang: There are a lot of voters in South Carolina who aren't that engaged. But they do trust the Clyburns. If Jim Clyburn says, “Joe Biden's our guy,” then a lot of people down there would just say “I trust Jim. Let's go with Joe.” I heard that over and over again in South Carolina. When Clyburn made his endorsement, everyone moved in that direction. That is very, very unusual.

I can't think of an endorsement that would parallel it in Iowa or New Hampshire, in part because the people there are very, very engaged and had been meeting candidates and been making up their own minds for months. With the Asian-American community, I'm not sure that there is a level of engagement or unity where the entire community would move on the basis of any individual organization, because there are so many organizations. But the voters we should be most concerned about are the less engaged voters. The problem right now is that there's a massive bias towards the highly engaged online audience, and it's missing all of these folks who are from poor, more rural, or immigrant communities. They're not sitting there glued to Politico. If someone makes a very basic appeal, then they hear it.

Well, I agree with his diagnosis, but definitely not his prescription for the problem. Which tracks bc Yang is a loser with a losing track record.

What online leftist reads Politico? What he and the "anti-woke" crowd do is create a fictitious portmanteau of very different voting contingencies and then scapegoat it for problems that they themselves have created. The solution is thus twofold:

1. Democrats do need to recruit better quality candidates that fit the districts they are competing in. Candidates like Jared Golden who really defy any categorization as either moderate or progressive, are independent thinkers, and have nuanced policy positions... not New Dems like Gottheimer cuz that is, ironically enough, the kind of candidate that only Politico bro consultant types like. All forms of elitism are a bad look, whether it's left-identitarian woke warriors or neoliberal McKinsey goons. Nominate working class people in working class communities, duh! It's not that hard and obviously works for the GOP - a party whose hostility to workers is a central component of its program.

I also think that this means we rly should not nominate Harris or Buttigieg in 2024, and probably should stick with Biden (and maybe with a new VP).

BUT ALSO

2. Stop the circular firing squad. People like Suozzi and Gottheimer do the GOP's dirty work for them, and anybody who is critical of other Democrats on policy needs to be primaried. "Wokism" and "critical race theory" are racist, Republican dog whistles, and no amount of capitulating to their false concerns will win back racist, suburban voters for us. And it demonstrably depresses youth and minority turnout, which we desperately need. No excuses, the party has to have a more coherent brand identity and being white supremacy lite is not it. Anybody who is a Democrat whining about "wokism" for a dollar needs to be swiftly shut down by party leaders. Do not concede an inch, because even if "wokism" is a real concern it's pointless to talk about when there is no political or policy fix, and when it has absolutely no material, economic, or real impact on anybody's life

Holy hell. If every Democrat thought like this, this party would be absolutely doomed for a long time. Wokeism absolutely is inserting itself into the policy realm and does indeed have a policy fix as well as a marketing one. First of all, the "defund" and "abolish" slogans about law enforcement need to die. You're effectively miscommunicating to voters that your policy is in fact to eliminate policing even if it isn't. A massive unforced error brought to us by the woke crowd. You have states like NY and CA with misgendering laws, CA has an ethnic studies mandate for high schools Newsome signed into law, CA also signed into a law a ban on gendered toy sections at stores.... It may seem small in the grand scheme of things, but most voters see this stuff and think it's insane and out of control. And avoiding this garbage isn't "white supremacy lite"... Most minorities hate this garbage too. It's literally nothing but self-congratulating drivel on the part of the white guilt crowd.

You literally failed the assignment by going off on a complete non-sequitur, rambling rant about "defund" this, "abolish" that, when if you would read more carefully, I didn't say to run on those, in fact I said the exact opposite, but also maybe, I dk, don't get reflexively defensive when people point out that the whole "CRT" outrage is astroturfed, racist BS. Not a single democrat, progressive or otherwise, has ran on "CRT" in schools, and yet when republicans claim the contrary boneheaded Democrats like yourself amplify their concerns and lend them legitimacy by denouncing things that nobody with any power or influence said or advocated. You just parrot false equivalence arguments, and alienate young, diverse, apathetic, working class voters.

We can't have a civil discussion about reallocating DoD funds, police funds, ICE funds, etc. to more peaceful and sustainable forms of development because the Republicans scream socialism, and then Democrats like yourself bizarrely back them up. This is the Gottheimer position, the Sinema position, the Manchin position, and it is clearly demoralizing to our base, who by the way includes millions of working class, young, diverse voters some of whom even have college degrees! You are setting up a false choice between one set of suburban swing voters who are unreliable at best and a "far left" caricature that only exists on college campuses and Republican wet dreams.

I don't disagree that the hyper visibility of this personage as a representative of the Democratic Party is a problem, but the fact that you seem so committed to drawing attention to this figure when they are a clear minority is itself a part of the problem. That's the point, not that we should run on "defund the police" lol, it's that we need the moderates in the party to acknowledge that we aren't, we won't anytime soon, and their fearmongering around that only benefits the gop