Can a man get pregnant

[John Dule]

I thought the entire basis for why men don't get to have opinions on abortion was because we can't have babies.

[John Dule]

In the dark purple states, objectively yes. These states and territories legally recognize a change from the gender assigned at birth upon request.

Source: Wikipedia

The magenta states and territories only recognize the change if sex reassignment surgery has been performed, so I think that would rule out pregnancy in an FTM.

Idaho is apparently in limbo, while Tennessee and American Samoa do not allow a change for any reason.

Those states also recognize corporate personhood, a similar legal fiction.

[John Dule]

Corporate personhood is correct for the same reason that we also recognize other organizations as persons: Should the New York Times not have legal rights because it is an organization, and not a single individual?

I'm not questioning corporate personhood. I'm saying that just because something is legally true does not make it factually true.

[John Dule]

All I'm doing is noting how many transphobes there are here, based on the poll, and questioning how many of them would recognize that they are transphobic.

We are not allowed to recognize it on this site because doing so is a moddable offense.

[John Dule]

Don't know if this has been said earlier in the thread because I'm too lazy to check, but if we're basing our ideas of gender on whether or not you are physically capable of delivering a baby, then that means there are a lot of infertile AFAB women who don't know that they're men.

Literally nobody thinks that all women can get pregnant.

[John Dule]

The transgender movement ignores the distinction between gender and sex all the time. Funny how we don't see you criticizing when they do it.

For example: birth certificates list sex, not gender. But many of them insist on changing their birth certificate to reflect something they were not born as.

Pronouns also reference biological sex rather than gender, since throughout history they were automatically applied to a baby upon its birth.

[John Dule]

The transgender movement ignores the distinction between gender and sex all the time. Funny how we don't see you criticizing when they do it.

For example: birth certificates list sex, not gender. But many of them insist on changing their birth certificate to reflect something they were not born as.

Pronouns also reference biological sex rather than gender, since throughout history they were automatically applied to a baby upon its birth.

Yet we recognized above that this usage has changed since whatever your definition of "throughout history" entails (which is itself misleading, since there have been many instances of historically-recognized gender non-conforming people being known by other pronouns than those they were assigned at birth and by the name given by their culture to gender non-conforming people), although your response to it was the very wishy-washy "definitions do change but I'm still going to be hostile to this particular instance of it Because Ideology".

So you have the right to alter the definitions but we don't have the right to question those changes?

[John Dule]

The transgender movement ignores the distinction between gender and sex all the time. Funny how we don't see you criticizing when they do it.

For example: birth certificates list sex, not gender. But many of them insist on changing their birth certificate to reflect something they were not born as.

Pronouns also reference biological sex rather than gender, since throughout history they were automatically applied to a baby upon its birth.

Yet we recognized above that this usage has changed since whatever your definition of "throughout history" entails (which is itself misleading, since there have been many instances of historically-recognized gender non-conforming people being known by other pronouns than those they were assigned at birth and by the name given by their culture to gender non-conforming people), although your response to it was the very wishy-washy "definitions do change but I'm still going to be hostile to this particular instance of it Because Ideology".

So you have the right to alter the definitions but we don't have the right to question those changes?

You have every right to question it; I just don't think you were doing so in good faith.

Oh ok. Why is that? I would instinctively question any redefinition of any word. The burden is on those advocating a change to the status quo to demonstrate why the change is necessary.

[John Dule]

It would appear from the records of classical antiquity and the various pre-colonial societies of Siberia, the Philippines, Latin America, and so on, that humans have understood gender identity as separate from birth sex for perhaps longer than humans have kept history; examples can be found around the world of societies that recognize a social role for those who adopt the mannerisms of the other sex or of some liminal space between the two, at times within a religious context (some folks, including our own trans-adjacent pal Nathan, argue that gender dysphoria is best understood as a spiritual experience, although surely this won't appeal to you). Even setting aside gender non-conformity, gender roles have varied and evolved in various societies throughout history, some societies adopting characteristics in one gender that others see more in another, to the point that we can reject any idea of gender being solely informed by innate qualities of sex rather than subjective societal ideas.

Thus one might turn the premise on its head and ask, as I hinted at above: why has Western Civilization™ seen fit to reject these understandings in favor of the idea that there is no difference between sex and gender? Why don't you have to prove that the muxe or the babaylan are invalid ways of understanding oneself in relation to one's body or the ideas that emerge from bodies and that we instead must conform strictly to what we were born with? Why don't you have to prove that when I feel the sensation of compression squeezing hips inwards that beg to be those of a woman it's best merely to live with that deeply harrowing sensation rather than take a medication that my doctor at a world-renowned hospital has prescribed me with the aim of alleviating that phenomenon and making my form resemble what it tells me that it ought to be?

Ultimately, I can only speak from my personal experience and my own understandings of these ideas far greater than the scope of one person's understanding. I hope that I have done justice to these experiences and the great weight of questions that our species has pondered for as long as we have known thought.

I won't comment on your personal anecdotes and experiences. However, I will say this: Most of the historical "third genders" in other cultures that trans people point to are either not analogous to their cause or were fabricated quite recently (e.g. "Two-Spirit"). And in any case, the way that Siberians or Filipinos choose to communicate has no bearing on communication in English. If you want to add a word as stupid as "xir" to my vocabulary, you had better demonstrate pretty conclusively that it is useful in communication-- which it isn't, by the simple fact that 99% of people have no idea what it means or refers to. Other languages gender all their nouns, but you don't see me doing that in English and then arguing that the burden is on you to show why I shouldn't do that. If I were to do such a thing, I would probably come across as a tad unhinged.

The fact that the roles we assign to the sexes have changed does not mean the sexes themselves have changed. Another thing the gender crew likes to throw around is that picture of FDR in a dress. What exactly do things like this prove? Yes, gender roles are mutable. That was never in question.

Anyway, you seem to understand that I have no interest in giving attention or legitimacy to anything "spiritual," and I certainly will not alter the way I use language in order to conform to such a thing. You might as well tell me that I have to believe in ghosts because of the "experiences" a few dingbats have had with them. But as always, consenting adults are free to do as they choose, and no one has any right to stop you from seeking surgery so that your outward self matches your inward self. I think the trans movement would be better served by a heightened focus on the individual rather than demanding some kind of Hegelian recognition of their identity from everyone else in society-- my opinion on this shouldn't matter to you, nor should yours matter to me. So long as I don't violate your bodily autonomy by preventing you from getting surgery and you don't violate my right to free speech by making "misgendering" an offense, we shouldn't care what the other thinks.

[John Dule]

It would appear from the records of classical antiquity and the various pre-colonial societies of Siberia, the Philippines, Latin America, and so on, that humans have understood gender identity as separate from birth sex for perhaps longer than humans have kept history; examples can be found around the world of societies that recognize a social role for those who adopt the mannerisms of the other sex or of some liminal space between the two, at times within a religious context (some folks, including our own trans-adjacent pal Nathan, argue that gender dysphoria is best understood as a spiritual experience, although surely this won't appeal to you). Even setting aside gender non-conformity, gender roles have varied and evolved in various societies throughout history, some societies adopting characteristics in one gender that others see more in another, to the point that we can reject any idea of gender being solely informed by innate qualities of sex rather than subjective societal ideas.

Thus one might turn the premise on its head and ask, as I hinted at above: why has Western Civilization™ seen fit to reject these understandings in favor of the idea that there is no difference between sex and gender? Why don't you have to prove that the muxe or the babaylan are invalid ways of understanding oneself in relation to one's body or the ideas that emerge from bodies and that we instead must conform strictly to what we were born with? Why don't you have to prove that when I feel the sensation of compression squeezing hips inwards that beg to be those of a woman it's best merely to live with that deeply harrowing sensation rather than take a medication that my doctor at a world-renowned hospital has prescribed me with the aim of alleviating that phenomenon and making my form resemble what it tells me that it ought to be?

Ultimately, I can only speak from my personal experience and my own understandings of these ideas far greater than the scope of one person's understanding. I hope that I have done justice to these experiences and the great weight of questions that our species has pondered for as long as we have known thought.

I won't comment on your personal anecdotes and experiences. However, I will say this: Most of the historical "third genders" in other cultures that trans people point to are either not analogous to their cause or were fabricated quite recently (e.g. "Two-Spirit"). And in any case, the way that Siberians or Filipinos choose to communicate has no bearing on communication in English. If you want to add a word as stupid as "xir" to my vocabulary, you had better demonstrate pretty conclusively that it is useful in communication-- which it isn't, by the simple fact that 99% of people have no idea what it means or refers to. Other languages gender all their nouns, but you don't see me doing that in English and then arguing that the burden is on you to show why I shouldn't do that. If I were to do such a thing, I would probably come across as a tad unhinged.

The fact that the roles we assign to the sexes have changed does not mean the sexes themselves have changed. Another thing the gender crew likes to throw around is that picture of FDR in a dress. What exactly do things like this prove? Yes, gender roles are mutable. That was never in question.

Anyway, you seem to understand that I have no interest in giving attention or legitimacy to anything "spiritual," and I certainly will not alter the way I use language in order to conform to such a thing. You might as well tell me that I have to believe in ghosts because of the "experiences" a few dingbats have had with them. But as always, consenting adults are free to do as they choose, and no one has any right to stop you from seeking surgery so that your outward self matches your inward self. I think the trans movement would be better served by a heightened focus on the individual rather than demanding some kind of Hegelian recognition of their identity from everyone else in society-- my opinion on this shouldn't matter to you, nor should yours matter to me. So long as I don't violate your bodily autonomy by preventing you from getting surgery and you don't violate my right to free speech by making "misgendering" an offense, we shouldn't care what the other thinks.

The term "two-spirit" is indeed of fairly recent coinage, replacing prior terminology that is now considered outdated and offensive, and folks who subscribe to the contemporary Western conception of transness trying to totalize them as part of their milieu are engaging in misguided cultural imperialism, but those cultures did/do indeed have conceptions of gender non-conformity.

I never meant to imply that there should be any tangible penalty (besides being gently corrected) for misgendering, which I consider very frivolous; however, too many people blur the line in bad faith and insist that even being politely told to call someone by another pronoun that they prefer is censorship, which I don't have the time to deal with.

Ok, and I never implied that there should be any legal obstacle for a consenting adult to receive gender reassignment surgery.

[John Dule]

Oh look, this thread is back.

[John Dule]

Broke: Getting an abortion for financial reasons

Woke: Getting an abortion to fight overpopulation

Bespoke: Becoming transgender, getting a womb transplant, getting pregnant, and then aborting the fetus to make Fuzzy's head explode