Which victory was larger

[MR DARK BRANDON]

?

Both won with the same number of EV’s and with some very close states but overall which was the “larger” victory

[Girlytree]

Trump. Biden won Wisconsin by less

[Mexican Wolf]

Biden 2020. Even though the margins were narrower in the decisive states for Biden than for Trump in 2016 (except for PA), Biden also won the popular vote while Trump didn't.

[bayareabay]

?

Both won with the same number of EV’s and with some very close states but overall which was the “larger” victory

No contest it was Biden with the larger victory. The vast majority of states (both red and blue) shifted left from 2016.

[Schiff for Senate]

Biden 2020. Even though the margins were narrower in the decisive states for Biden than for Trump in 2016 (except for PA), Biden also won the popular vote while Trump didn't.

Exactly. Biden outperformed Trump in terms of popular vote margin by over 6% (he won by 4-4.5%; Trump lost by around 2%.)

?

Both won with the same number of EV’s and with some very close states but overall which was the “larger” victory

No contest it was Biden with the larger victory. The vast majority of states (both red and blue) shifted left from 2016.

No offense, but what kind of logic is that? All that means is Biden outperformed Clinton. I mean, Trump (in 2016) outperformed Romney in most areas as well. The leftward shift from 2016 to 2020 was obviously pretty large, and so was the rightward shift from 2012 to 2016, but neither really says anything about the outcome of 2020 or 2016.

[Pericles]

As a 'mandate', Biden's. In the only way that matters, Trump's.

[Chips]

As a 'mandate', Biden's. In the only way that matters, Trump's.

[Girlytree]

Biden 2020. Even though the margins were narrower in the decisive states for Biden than for Trump in 2016 (except for PA), Biden also won the popular vote while Trump didn't.

Popular vote means literally nothing

[Pres Mike]

Easily, Biden. He won a majority of the popular vote. Trump's 2016 victory could be contributed to a larger than average third party vote and Russia/FBI interference

[Mr. Smith]

Trump won by 77,000, a record number of House seats, and a comfy Senate lead.

Biden won by 46,000 and everything at a knife's edge.

[Sir Mohamed]

People tend to answer for the one they prefer.

That said, I don't think "switch x votes here and you get another result" is really a good argument and not how elections work. While taking 45k votes from Biden on certain states to get to 269 tie is smaller than the 77k you need to flip in 2016 for another result, Biden trounced Trump in the NPV by over 7 million votes while Trump lost in 2016 by 2.9 million.

Congressional results are absolutely irrelavant, and I don't know why people bring that up. By that standard, 1948 was a larger victory than 1972 and 1984 because Truman won both chambers back for his party while Nixon never had a trifecta and Reagan's GOP also failed to win a House majority.

[Skill and Chance]

People tend to answer for the one they prefer.

That said, I don't think "switch x votes here and you get another result" is really a good argument and not how elections work. While taking 45k votes from Biden on certain states to get to 269 tie is smaller than the 77k you need to flip in 2016 for another result, Biden trounced Trump in the NPV by over 7 million votes while Trump lost in 2016 by 2.9 million.

Congressional results are absolutely irrelavant, and I don't know why people bring that up. By that standard, 1948 was a larger victory than 1972 and 1984 because Truman won both chambers back for his party while Nixon never had a trifecta and Reagan's GOP also failed to win a House majority.

In terms of actualy policy outcomes, I don't think that's a crazy argument?  This goes a long way toward explaining why the New Deal programs became permanent- 1948 being a surprise Dem win spooked R's under Ike from making any major changes and kept the future R congressional majorities too narrow and brief for them to pass.  Then, Nixon had to basically accept the status quo on economic issues despite his massive win.  Reagan made more changes, but even he was limited.  It's probably safe to say Medicare and Social Security as we know them don't survive a 60% GOP House in 1981.     

[Sir Mohamed]

People tend to answer for the one they prefer.

That said, I don't think "switch x votes here and you get another result" is really a good argument and not how elections work. While taking 45k votes from Biden on certain states to get to 269 tie is smaller than the 77k you need to flip in 2016 for another result, Biden trounced Trump in the NPV by over 7 million votes while Trump lost in 2016 by 2.9 million.

Congressional results are absolutely irrelavant, and I don't know why people bring that up. By that standard, 1948 was a larger victory than 1972 and 1984 because Truman won both chambers back for his party while Nixon never had a trifecta and Reagan's GOP also failed to win a House majority.

In terms of actualy policy outcomes, I don't think that's a crazy argument?  This goes a long way toward explaining why the New Deal programs became permanent- 1948 being a surprise Dem win spooked R's under Ike from making any major changes and kept the future R congressional majorities too narrow and brief for them to pass.  Then, Nixon had to basically accept the status quo on economic issues despite his massive win.  Reagan made more changes, but even he was limited.  It's probably safe to say Medicare and Social Security as we know them don't survive a 60% GOP House in 1981.     

I don't see there's a contradiction. Btw, Dewey in 1948 wasn't a staunch opponent of the New Deal either. He was a liberal GOPer and probably not even to the right of Eisenhower on said issues. The civil rights laws he passed in NYS were even stronger than anything that Eisenhower signed into law. Truman explicitly ran against the GOP congress in 1948 and it's very likely congressional GOPers at the time, who were more conservative than Dewey, cost their nominee support. Truman successfully tied his challenger to the "Do Nothing congress". I just don't think comparing congressional results from 2016 and 2020 can answer the question which presidential victory was larger.

[Pres Mike]

Define "victory"

On a personal level, yes Biden's victory was far larger. He won 7 million more votes and a clear majority of the popular vote. Trump on the other didn't even win the most votes and his electoral victory can be blamed on a strong third party vote. On a personal level, Biden had a stronger mandate than Trump 2016.

Yet.... Trump came in with far stronger congressional majorites. Sure the average American doesn't care about congress (hence down ballot always has less total votes).

[President Johnson]

I'm surprised so many people vote Trump. While there's argument because you need to switch fewer votes in certain states, I think you can't leave the popular vote - ergo mandate - out of the picture. Trump lost the popular vote in 2016 by nearly three million and even won a lower share of votes than Mitt Romney did. In 2020, Joe Biden won the popular vote by more than seven million and an absolute majority of the vote.

[OSR stands with Israel]

I'm surprised so many people vote Trump. While there's argument because you need to switch fewer votes in certain states, I think you can't leave the popular vote - ergo mandate - out of the picture. Trump lost the popular vote in 2016 by nearly three million and even won a lower share of votes than Mitt Romney did. In 2020, Joe Biden won the popular vote by more than seven million and an absolute majority of the vote.

Yah by that definition Obama in 2008 won a larger victory than Reagan in 1980, Bush in 1988 and Clinton in 1996 cause he won the tipping point state by a larger margin than any of those 3

[Mr. Smith]

People tend to answer for the one they prefer.

That said, I don't think "switch x votes here and you get another result" is really a good argument and not how elections work. While taking 45k votes from Biden on certain states to get to 269 tie is smaller than the 77k you need to flip in 2016 for another result, Biden trounced Trump in the NPV by over 7 million votes while Trump lost in 2016 by 2.9 million.

Congressional results are absolutely irrelavant, and I don't know why people bring that up. By that standard, 1948 was a larger victory than 1972 and 1984 because Truman won both chambers back for his party while Nixon never had a trifecta and Reagan's GOP also failed to win a House majority.

In terms of actualy policy outcomes, I don't think that's a crazy argument?  This goes a long way toward explaining why the New Deal programs became permanent- 1948 being a surprise Dem win spooked R's under Ike from making any major changes and kept the future R congressional majorities too narrow and brief for them to pass.  Then, Nixon had to basically accept the status quo on economic issues despite his massive win.  Reagan made more changes, but even he was limited.  It's probably safe to say Medicare and Social Security as we know them don't survive a 60% GOP House in 1981.     

I don't see there's a contradiction. Btw, Dewey in 1948 wasn't a staunch opponent of the New Deal either. He was a liberal GOPer and probably not even to the right of Eisenhower on said issues. The civil rights laws he passed in NYS were even stronger than anything that Eisenhower signed into law. Truman explicitly ran against the GOP congress in 1948 and it's very likely congressional GOPers at the time, who were more conservative than Dewey, cost their nominee support. Truman successfully tied his challenger to the "Do Nothing congress". I just don't think comparing congressional results from 2016 and 2020 can answer the question which presidential victory was larger.

Given how nationalized and tied up everything has been this decade, in ways that weren't the case even last decade...and how 1994 arguably cemented such weighting in the first place...I don't see why not!

@PresJo:  Sam Tilden also won the majority too!

[Non Swing Voter]

How out of touch with reality are the Republicans who voted Trump's 2016 victory was larger? 

Trump had the same electoral count as Biden, won that with a few states Hillary didn't even campaign in, and lost the popular vote by around 3 million. 

Biden won the same electoral vote, won states in all 4 major regions of the country, and won the popular vote by 7 million in a higher turnout election.  All of this against a sitting incumbent.  The answer is obvious. 

[Pres Mike]

How out of touch with reality are the Republicans who voted Trump's 2016 victory was larger? 

Trump had the same electoral count as Biden, won that with a few states Hillary didn't even campaign in, and lost the popular vote by around 3 million. 

Biden won the same electoral vote, won states in all 4 major regions of the country, and won the popular vote by 7 million in a higher turnout election.  All of this against a sitting incumbent.  The answer is obvious. 

Biden didn't win the south

Did Biden win the Midwest? Using the census definition Trump won a few more electable votes from the Midwest (Ohio to North Dakota)

[Nightcore Nationalist]

Mathematically speaking, Trump. (78K > 43K).  And although you can make the valid argument that Biden flipped the Senate chamber, you could also make the argument that Trump outperformed polls and expectations by a large margin both times.

[OSR stands with Israel]

How out of touch with reality are the Republicans who voted Trump's 2016 victory was larger? 

Trump had the same electoral count as Biden, won that with a few states Hillary didn't even campaign in, and lost the popular vote by around 3 million. 

Biden won the same electoral vote, won states in all 4 major regions of the country, and won the popular vote by 7 million in a higher turnout election.  All of this against a sitting incumbent.  The answer is obvious. 

Pennslyvania is considered a North Eastern state not a Midwestern one .

[Non Swing Voter]

How out of touch with reality are the Republicans who voted Trump's 2016 victory was larger? 

Trump had the same electoral count as Biden, won that with a few states Hillary didn't even campaign in, and lost the popular vote by around 3 million. 

Biden won the same electoral vote, won states in all 4 major regions of the country, and won the popular vote by 7 million in a higher turnout election.  All of this against a sitting incumbent.  The answer is obvious. 

Pennslyvania is considered a North Eastern state not a Midwestern one .

Where did I say otherwise?

Again, Biden won states in all 4 major regions of the country. 

[OSR stands with Israel]

How out of touch with reality are the Republicans who voted Trump's 2016 victory was larger? 

Trump had the same electoral count as Biden, won that with a few states Hillary didn't even campaign in, and lost the popular vote by around 3 million. 

Biden won the same electoral vote, won states in all 4 major regions of the country, and won the popular vote by 7 million in a higher turnout election.  All of this against a sitting incumbent.  The answer is obvious. 

Pennslyvania is considered a North Eastern state not a Midwestern one .

Where did I say otherwise?

Again, Biden won states in all 4 major regions of the country. 

Implying Trump didn’t

[Non Swing Voter]

How out of touch with reality are the Republicans who voted Trump's 2016 victory was larger? 

Trump had the same electoral count as Biden, won that with a few states Hillary didn't even campaign in, and lost the popular vote by around 3 million. 

Biden won the same electoral vote, won states in all 4 major regions of the country, and won the popular vote by 7 million in a higher turnout election.  All of this against a sitting incumbent.  The answer is obvious. 

Pennslyvania is considered a North Eastern state not a Midwestern one .

Where did I say otherwise?

Again, Biden won states in all 4 major regions of the country. 

Implying Trump didn’t

Trump won nothing on the west coast.

And even to the extent you consider "Arizona" the west that's 1 state.  Trump only won PA + ME-2 in the Northeast. 

On the other hand, Biden won multiple states in all of the major regions.  He won almost everything in the Northeast + West.  He won multiple Southern States.  He split the Midwest.  His victory was clearly more sweeping in terms of regions of the country. 

[OSR stands with Israel]

How out of touch with reality are the Republicans who voted Trump's 2016 victory was larger? 

Trump had the same electoral count as Biden, won that with a few states Hillary didn't even campaign in, and lost the popular vote by around 3 million. 

Biden won the same electoral vote, won states in all 4 major regions of the country, and won the popular vote by 7 million in a higher turnout election.  All of this against a sitting incumbent.  The answer is obvious. 

Pennslyvania is considered a North Eastern state not a Midwestern one .

Where did I say otherwise?

Again, Biden won states in all 4 major regions of the country. 

Implying Trump didn’t

Trump won nothing on the west coast.

And even to the extent you consider "Arizona" the west that's 1 state.  Trump only won PA + ME-2 in the Northeast. 

On the other hand, Biden won multiple states in all of the major regions.  He won almost everything in the Northeast + West.  He won multiple Southern States.  He split the Midwest.  His victory was clearly more sweeping in terms of regions of the country. 

The west includes the Mountain West + Pacific Coast.