Are LGBT Christians "traitors"?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This seems to be a common view I've noticed by (often heterosexual) New Atheist types. I remember some Reddit post where a guy said if he was into burning churches (which he emphasized he was totally not ever going to do), he'd much rather burn one flying a rainbow banner than some fire and brimstone fundamentalist one because the former are even more dangerous and lure LGBT people based on lies and then prop up an evil religion that's all about oppressing them, blah blah blah, while the fundamentalist ones are at least outright about what they stand for.

[afleitch]

This seems to be a common view I've noticed by (often heterosexual) New Atheist types. I remember some Reddit...

No it isn't.

You do this all the time. You throw together a comment you read a decade ago, then draw a conclusion, then post stuff like this for a reaction. 'New Atheists'; it's 2021. Move on.

Yeah I get the whole 'my church is cool, see HOW COOL my church is, take that 2010 Internet!' But jeez

Atheists would rather burn a church with a rainbow flag.


Grow up.

[afleitch]

LGBT Christians are not traitors, but it can be said that many churches are traitors to LGBT Christians.

As I mentioned in another topic, non affirming churches often need the heavy lifting of queer worshippers; 'sing for us, act for us, read for us, do community work for us' while cishets determine sexual and spiritual morality with enough caveats for them to fulfil their identity, but none for LGBT people and their identity. No sex. No marriage and even if you do that in most cases, no ministry.

It's intentional gaslighting. As I said before, churches marshal the forces of self-doubt disproportionately and in some cases almost exclusively to queer Christians. They do it, because with cisheteronormativity, they live in world of created contradictions and they want another group in ongoing atonement for them, so they can continue to enjoy the concessions they've allowed themselves.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

There are likely more people who think LGBT Christians are "traitors" to Christianity than people who think they are "traitors" to the LGBT movement.

[CEO Mindset]

if you call yourself christian but are unable to perform miracles such as healing by touch, you don't really have an actual commitment to jesus christ so it's not like lgbt christians are any different than other reprobates who call themselves christians like family-guy watching christians, "anti-racist" christians, etc

not christian myself so it's not like i personally care either way

[CEO Mindset]

When did God abandon us?

December 25, 2003, 11:32:20 PM

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This seems to be a common view I've noticed by (often heterosexual) New Atheist types. I remember some Reddit...

No it isn't.

You do this all the time. You throw together a comment you read a decade ago, then draw a conclusion, then post stuff like this for a reaction. 'New Atheists'; it's 2021. Move on.

Yeah I get the whole 'my church is cool, see HOW COOL my church is, take that 2010 Internet!' But jeez

Atheists would rather burn a church with a rainbow flag.


Grow up.

LOL "New Atheism" did not disappear ten years ago. We have had posters making New Atheist style comments in the past 48 hours here. And r/atheism is still going strong.

[John Dule]

This seems to be a common view I've noticed by (often heterosexual) New Atheist types. I remember some Reddit...

No it isn't.

You do this all the time. You throw together a comment you read a decade ago, then draw a conclusion, then post stuff like this for a reaction. 'New Atheists'; it's 2021. Move on.

Yeah I get the whole 'my church is cool, see HOW COOL my church is, take that 2010 Internet!' But jeez

Atheists would rather burn a church with a rainbow flag.


Grow up.

LOL "New Atheism" did not disappear ten years ago. We have had posters making New Atheist style comments in the past 48 hours here. And r/atheism is still going strong.

You are the only person on this site who visits r/atheism.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This seems to be a common view I've noticed by (often heterosexual) New Atheist types. I remember some Reddit...

No it isn't.

You do this all the time. You throw together a comment you read a decade ago, then draw a conclusion, then post stuff like this for a reaction. 'New Atheists'; it's 2021. Move on.

Yeah I get the whole 'my church is cool, see HOW COOL my church is, take that 2010 Internet!' But jeez

Atheists would rather burn a church with a rainbow flag.


Grow up.

LOL "New Atheism" did not disappear ten years ago. We have had posters making New Atheist style comments in the past 48 hours here. And r/atheism is still going strong.

You are the only person on this site who visits r/atheism.

I don't visit it. I learn of the really dumb stuff on it the same way I learned of those horrifically awful takes in regards to Andrew Cuomo on Twitter, other people retweeting them basically saying "haha look at this moron." In this case it being linked and mocked on Christian subs.

[HisGrace]

Well being trans has nothing to do with being a Christian so that's just not relevant.

I would imagine most gay Christians don't take the Bible literally and simply ignore the various passages on gay people in the Bible. That's not tenable for me (I'm not a Christian) but if that's what they need to tell themselves, whatever.

I just feel sorry for the "celibate gay" Christians and I'd put the blame for that situation on the church, not them.

[Kleine Scheiße]

What is "LGBT"

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

What is "LGBT"

Lettuce Gay Bacon Tomato

[°Leprechaun]

What is "LGBT"

Lettuce Gay Bacon Tomato

What is Gay Bacon? Does that come from Gay Pigs?

[Ferguson97]

This seems to be a common view I've noticed by (often heterosexual) New Atheist types. I remember some Reddit...

No it isn't.

You do this all the time. You throw together a comment you read a decade ago, then draw a conclusion, then post stuff like this for a reaction. 'New Atheists'; it's 2021. Move on.

Yeah I get the whole 'my church is cool, see HOW COOL my church is, take that 2010 Internet!' But jeez

Atheists would rather burn a church with a rainbow flag.


Grow up.

LOL "New Atheism" did not disappear ten years ago. We have had posters making New Atheist style comments in the past 48 hours here. And r/atheism is still going strong.

You are the only person on this site who visits r/atheism.

I don't visit it. I learn of the really dumb stuff on it the same way I learned of those horrifically awful takes in regards to Andrew Cuomo on Twitter, other people retweeting them basically saying "haha look.at this moron." In this case it being linked and mocked on Christian subs.

We must visit completely different corners of the internet outside of Atlas then. I didn't see anyone defending Cuomo until you posted it here. I guess it explains why your perception of atheism is like 10 years out of date.

[John Dule]

This seems to be a common view I've noticed by (often heterosexual) New Atheist types. I remember some Reddit...

No it isn't.

You do this all the time. You throw together a comment you read a decade ago, then draw a conclusion, then post stuff like this for a reaction. 'New Atheists'; it's 2021. Move on.

Yeah I get the whole 'my church is cool, see HOW COOL my church is, take that 2010 Internet!' But jeez

Atheists would rather burn a church with a rainbow flag.


Grow up.

LOL "New Atheism" did not disappear ten years ago. We have had posters making New Atheist style comments in the past 48 hours here. And r/atheism is still going strong.

You are the only person on this site who visits r/atheism.

I don't visit it. I learn of the really dumb stuff on it the same way I learned of those horrifically awful takes in regards to Andrew Cuomo on Twitter, other people retweeting them basically saying "haha look.at this moron." In this case it being linked and mocked on Christian subs.

We must visit completely different corners of the internet outside of Atlas then. I didn't see anyone defending Cuomo until you posted it here. I guess it explains why your perception of atheism is like 10 years out of date.

That's still better than his taste in music, which is well over 20 years out of date and aging fast.

[Kingpoleon]

Well being trans has nothing to do with being a Christian so that's just not relevant.

I would imagine most gay Christians don't take the Bible literally and simply ignore the various passages on gay people in the Bible. That's not tenable for me (I'm not a Christian) but if that's what they need to tell themselves, whatever.

I just feel sorry for the "celibate gay" Christians and I'd put the blame for that situation on the church, not them.

Is this actually the degree of understanding which people outside of the church have of the development of LGBT theology? The pop writers even on this subject, like Matthew Vines, Justin Cannon, and Justin Lee, are far closer to a sort of contextualization than they are to an absurdist modernist theology.

Some links in case anyone’s interested in this:
The Body’s Grace, Rowan Williams

An Argument for Gay Marriage, Eugene Rogers

A Theology of Marriage…, Rogers, etc.

It is rather difficult to argue against post liberal theologians; by nature of their theology, they excel at the art of narrative. I’m always surprised to see theologians like Williams and Rogers be considered as theological liberals when they really seem to me the most vicious critics of liberal theology.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This seems to be a common view I've noticed by (often heterosexual) New Atheist types. I remember some Reddit...

No it isn't.

You do this all the time. You throw together a comment you read a decade ago, then draw a conclusion, then post stuff like this for a reaction. 'New Atheists'; it's 2021. Move on.

Yeah I get the whole 'my church is cool, see HOW COOL my church is, take that 2010 Internet!' But jeez

Atheists would rather burn a church with a rainbow flag.


Grow up.

LOL "New Atheism" did not disappear ten years ago. We have had posters making New Atheist style comments in the past 48 hours here. And r/atheism is still going strong.

You are the only person on this site who visits r/atheism.

I don't visit it. I learn of the really dumb stuff on it the same way I learned of those horrifically awful takes in regards to Andrew Cuomo on Twitter, other people retweeting them basically saying "haha look.at this moron." In this case it being linked and mocked on Christian subs.

We must visit completely different corners of the internet outside of Atlas then. I didn't see anyone defending Cuomo until you posted it here. I guess it explains why your perception of atheism is like 10 years out of date.

That's still better than his taste in music, which is well over 20 years out of date and aging fast.

False! There was an emo revival that started about 7 years ago and is still going pretty strong. There's also even a pop-punk revival going on right now. Also I belong to several VERY active Facebook groups about my music, still has a very sizable fanbase. Also look at my signature. The band that did that song released a very acclaimed new album just last year.

[Kingpoleon]

We must visit completely different corners of the internet outside of Atlas then. I didn't see anyone defending Cuomo until you posted it here. I guess it explains why your perception of atheism is like 10 years out of date.

I think it’s difficult to ignore the fact that most popular atheists, like Jerry Coyne, Richard Dawkins, Susan Blackmore, Richard Carrier, Lawrence Krauss, GM Skeptic, Cosmic Skeptic, Daniel Dennett, Rationality Rules, etc., are just willfully ignorant and legitimately don’t know what they don’t know. None of them understand the distinction between rationalism and empiricism; none of them seem to even be capable of understanding something as basic as the Five Ways; and all of them have sort of a child’s finger painting sketch of history as a great battle between Rationalists and Mystics. It really is just embarrassing, and the fact that only a handful of secular philosophers (Ruse, Gray, Nagel) have called out the radical fideism at the very heart of the modern atheist movement should be far more shocking than it is treated as being.

*Dennett has at once advocated empiricism and then also attempted to reason against rationalist arguments rather than call out their premises. He legitimately does not understand cosmological arguments and seriously believes we are not conscious. Hence why he makes the list.

[If my soul was made of stone]

This seems to be a common view I've noticed by (often heterosexual) New Atheist types. I remember some Reddit...

No it isn't.

You do this all the time. You throw together a comment you read a decade ago, then draw a conclusion, then post stuff like this for a reaction. 'New Atheists'; it's 2021. Move on.

Yeah I get the whole 'my church is cool, see HOW COOL my church is, take that 2010 Internet!' But jeez

Atheists would rather burn a church with a rainbow flag.


Grow up.

LOL "New Atheism" did not disappear ten years ago. We have had posters making New Atheist style comments in the past 48 hours here. And r/atheism is still going strong.

You are the only person on this site who visits r/atheism.

I don't visit it. I learn of the really dumb stuff on it the same way I learned of those horrifically awful takes in regards to Andrew Cuomo on Twitter, other people retweeting them basically saying "haha look.at this moron." In this case it being linked and mocked on Christian subs.

We must visit completely different corners of the internet outside of Atlas then. I didn't see anyone defending Cuomo until you posted it here. I guess it explains why your perception of atheism is like 10 years out of date.

That's still better than his taste in music, which is well over 20 years out of date and aging fast.

False! There was an emo revival that started about 7 years ago and is still going pretty strong. There's also even a pop-punk revival going on right now. Also I belong to several VERY active Facebook groups about my music, still has a very sizable fanbase. Also look at my signature. The band that did that song released a very acclaimed new album just last year.

Organized revivals in art are a sign of creative bankruptcy leading people to mine the past for archetypes to imitate, creating a living-dead style rather than properly honoring the source material. If this scene really were alive and well, then it would certainly be inspiring current acts, but not blatantly being imitated by them. I'm sure that you want it this way, though, because it makes you feel relevant for having such a narrow worldview.

It's quite remarkable how insecure you are, and how the sheer volume with which you speak of your pet interests only makes this more obvious.

I just feel sorry for the "celibate gay" Christians and I'd put the blame for that situation on the church, not them.

I'm not a Christian, but I am queer, religious, and celibate, and dispute the notion that this is an inherently self-hating action. I don't agree with some church teachings that celibacy is the only option for those not interested in opposite-sex relationships, but if one finds celibacy to be a fitting lifestyle for them in accordance with their spiritual goals, or has objections to sexual expression in the forms that currently dominate, then that's a fulfilling rather than self-depriving choice. The reduction of human self-expression to sexuality is a sad consequence of the developments in societal perceptions of sexuality in the past century, and sadly upheld by many religious practices (which I'm uncomfortably close to and must define myself in opposition to as a pagan).

[John Dule]

Organized revivals in art are a sign of creative bankruptcy leading people to mine the past for archetypes to imitate, creating a living-dead style rather than properly honoring the source material. If this scene really were alive and well, then it would certainly be inspiring current acts, but not blatantly being imitated by them. I'm sure that you want it this way, though, because it makes you feel relevant for having such a narrow worldview.

It's quite remarkable how insecure you are, and how the sheer volume with which you speak of your pet interests only makes this more obvious.

[afleitch]

I'm not a Christian, but I am queer, religious, and celibate, and dispute the notion that this is an inherently self-hating action. I don't agree with some church teachings that celibacy is the only option for those not interested in opposite-sex relationships, but if one finds celibacy to be a fitting lifestyle for them in accordance with their spiritual goals, or has objections to sexual expression in the forms that currently dominate, then that's a fulfilling rather than self-depriving choice. The reduction of human self-expression to sexuality is a sad consequence of the developments in societal perceptions of sexuality in the past century, and sadly upheld by many religious practices (which I'm uncomfortably close to and must define myself in opposition to as a pagan).

I agree completely. As you say enforced celibacy for non heteronormative identities is deeply destructive, as it is for people who feel coerced into thinking celibacy is for them and that it's a conscious choice when it isn't. But it can also be a very roundabout way of eventually accepting your sexual gifts.

[Skunk]

Yes, LGBT Christians are traitors to cultural Marxism and Satan. Put your Bible down and get back to kissing members of the same gender to appease our dark lord!

[HisGrace]

I'm not a Christian, but I am queer, religious, and celibate, and dispute the notion that this is an inherently self-hating action. I don't agree with some church teachings that celibacy is the only option for those not interested in opposite-sex relationships

That's what I was talking about. The party line in conservative Christianity these days is that they're fine with you being gay but gay sex is still immoral so if you're a gay Christian you have to be celibate.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This seems to be a common view I've noticed by (often heterosexual) New Atheist types. I remember some Reddit...

No it isn't.

You do this all the time. You throw together a comment you read a decade ago, then draw a conclusion, then post stuff like this for a reaction. 'New Atheists'; it's 2021. Move on.

Yeah I get the whole 'my church is cool, see HOW COOL my church is, take that 2010 Internet!' But jeez

Atheists would rather burn a church with a rainbow flag.


Grow up.

LOL "New Atheism" did not disappear ten years ago. We have had posters making New Atheist style comments in the past 48 hours here. And r/atheism is still going strong.

You are the only person on this site who visits r/atheism.

I don't visit it. I learn of the really dumb stuff on it the same way I learned of those horrifically awful takes in regards to Andrew Cuomo on Twitter, other people retweeting them basically saying "haha look.at this moron." In this case it being linked and mocked on Christian subs.

We must visit completely different corners of the internet outside of Atlas then. I didn't see anyone defending Cuomo until you posted it here. I guess it explains why your perception of atheism is like 10 years out of date.

That's still better than his taste in music, which is well over 20 years out of date and aging fast.

False! There was an emo revival that started about 7 years ago and is still going pretty strong. There's also even a pop-punk revival going on right now. Also I belong to several VERY active Facebook groups about my music, still has a very sizable fanbase. Also look at my signature. The band that did that song released a very acclaimed new album just last year.

Organized revivals in art are a sign of creative bankruptcy leading people to mine the past for archetypes to imitate, creating a living-dead style rather than properly honoring the source material. If this scene really were alive and well, then it would certainly be inspiring current acts, but not blatantly being imitated by them. I'm sure that you want it this way, though, because it makes you feel relevant for having such a narrow worldview.

It's quite remarkable how insecure you are, and how the sheer volume with which you speak of your pet interests only makes this more obvious.

Uh, there's plenty of bands today too that are clearly inspired but not just imitating the best bands of the past like La Dispute, Touché Amoré and Gouge Away. But anyway...not sure what I would do if I was "insecure"...listen to more modern music i don't Iike in an effort to stay "relevant" or whatever? Oh yeah that totally sounds secure...

[RINO Tom]

Lmao, no.  The type of people who think this frankly spend too much time alone, overthinking stuff.