Mass Protests in Cuba

[CumbrianLefty]

I mean, you and all those who liked this ARE aware of the CIA's past record, right?

Its not actually necessary to whitewash the present Cuban regime to be wary of this.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

I mean, you and all those who liked this ARE aware of the CIA's past record, right?

I don't think the people being shot at for protesting police brutality and for economic justice and a right to freedom of assembly care. The cartoon is a travesty of people in this thread who have said that they give their "full support to the Cuban government" in imprisoning and disappearing peaceful protesters because they're undermining the Communist Party.

[(no subject)]

The French Revolution was a bourgeois revolution, not a socialist one. The sad history of the 19th and 20th centuries should have taught us that democracy and liberty cannot exist without the secure right to property.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

"The literacy rate is good" is the "They made the trains run on time" of the left.

The only person in this thread who's been focusing on this point, possibly even who's mentioned it at all, has been you. You can do better than this, Dule.

[PSOL]

I mean, you and all those who liked this ARE aware of the CIA's past record, right?

I don't think the people being shot at for protesting police brutality and for economic justice and a right to freedom of assembly care. The cartoon is a travesty of people in this thread who have said that they give their "full support to the Cuban government" in imprisoning and disappearing peaceful protesters because they're undermining the Communist Party.

No one here has done this.

[John Dule]

"The literacy rate is good" is the "They made the trains run on time" of the left.

The only person in this thread who's been focusing on this point, possibly even who's mentioned it at all, has been you. You can do better than this, Dule.

I have 101 Wacky Cuban Jokes and I intend to use them all before this thread is over.

[Battista Minola 1616]

"The literacy rate is good" is the "They made the trains run on time" of the left.

The only person in this thread who's been focusing on this point, possibly even who's mentioned it at all, has been you. You can do better than this, Dule.

I have 101 Wacky Cuban Jokes and I intend to use them all before this thread is over.

Not only yours is a strawman as Nathan pointed out, but there is also the fairly important difference that "Cuba's literacy rate is good" is true while "Mussolini made the trains run on time" is very false.

[Estrella]

"The literacy rate is good" is the "They made the trains run on time" of the left.

The only person in this thread who's been focusing on this point, possibly even who's mentioned it at all, has been you. You can do better than this, Dule.

I have 101 Wacky Cuban Jokes and I intend to use them all before this thread is over.

Not only yours is a strawman as Nathan pointed out, but there is also the fairly important difference that "Cuba's literacy rate is good" is true while "Mussolini made the trains run on time" is very false.

Apologies if this sounds like an angry rant; it's not really aimed at you, I'm just expressing my frustration with certain other people.

Cuba indeed has a very high literacy rate, and that is great - but so do many other countries. I've criticized communist regimes in this thread, but they undoubtedly did some things right. In 1950s Eastern Europe, nasty things like political repression and murder aside, communists helped women enter the workforce, enabled access to education and healthcare for everyone, provided jobs for dirt-poor rural areas and weren't bad economic managers either (Czechoslovakia ended rationing a year earlier than Britain, for example).

But that was in the 1950s. Over time, the whole thing just... stalled. By 1990, most of Comecon was on the brink of bankruptcy. Economically, technologically and culturally, the West advanced but the East didn't. Take computers, for example: even before PCs, home computers for reasonable-ish prices were a thing in capitalist countries, but here... well, around 1990, my mom's high school of several hundred students had like five PMD-85s. My dad is a couple years older and remembers being taught that "cybernetics is a bourgeois pseudoscience". Anyway, in 1980s Eastern Block, anything from jeans to a colour television, from washing powder to a telephone connection was almost unobtainable. That's the thing: a high literacy rate is great and it might have been impressive in, say, 1960, but 1960 was 1960 and now is now.

You (well, maybe not you specifically) might well say that my criticism is just shallow consumerism and communist countries balanced this out by being more advanced in other areas. They did indeed have unprecedented levels of equality - in the sense that it didn't matter if you were a factory worker or an accountant, a tractor driver or a manager, you could always be sure that almost every Western European was better off than you. But yes, there was equality.

Except... there wasn't. Take this example: in a capitalist country, someone who is dissatisfied with an ordinary hospital can pay for a private sanatorium. The profits are taxed, some of the money goes towards doctors' and nurses' wages, some will perhaps end up being invested into a new project - and it generally works because no-one needs to hide anything.

But wait! you might say. You can't do that if you don't have money! Well, in a communist country, someone who is dissatisfied with an ordinary hospital (perhaps because they aren't a fan of mold or rats) could get into a santorium reserved for Party bigwigs... provided they 1) knew the right people 2) had access to unobtainable luxury goods 3) had a big fat envelope of money lying around. All these payments were exchanged illegally, of course. And this system extended to every part of society; if you wanted anything more than the unsatisfactory basics - or just anything at all - you had to bribe. It doesn't take a sociologist to see what a disastrous effect this will have on society, even after the regime that necessitated it is long gone.

I was born eleven years after the fall of communism in my country, but any observant person will see the damage it has done to people's mentalities even today. Some things done right don't balance out many, many other things that were destroyed.

[PSOL]

Cuban Trotskyist under house arrest after release from jail.

While this is a broad movement currently out on the streets, and many are fighting for their rights, many rightist opportunists waving US flags and wanting to bring about Decommunization and Lustration are taking cover and conspiring. Cuba needs to be lighthanded and selective in use of force.

Clear and sweeping reforms of improving human rights and providing a dynamic economy through a crackdown on corruption is needed in the near future after the protests die down.

[Big Abraham]

I don't doubt there are people in Cuba disillusioned with the government. I do, however, doubt the reliability of information being transmitted for American consumption - and the U.S. state & corporate media, with intense economic interest in the introduction of monetarist reforms while showing no regard for the Cuban people - by a concerted team of émigrés with intense personal and financial interests in overthrowing the Díaz-Canel government.

[Velasco]

[
Cuba indeed has a very high literacy rate, and that is great - but so do many other countries (...)

You (well, maybe not you specifically) might well say that my criticism is just shallow consumerism and communist countries balanced this out by being more advanced in other areas. They did indeed have unprecedented levels of equality - in the sense that it didn't matter if you were a factory worker or an accountant, a tractor driver or a manager, you could always be sure that almost every Western European was better off than you. But yes, there was equality.

I think your criticism of communist regimes is legitimate and agree almost in everything with you. No doubt the Cuban regime is as failed as the communist regimes of Eastern Europe. However, I'd like to point out that Cuba is in Latin America. The literacy rate and the levels of well-being in that island must be compared to those of Haití, Perú or Guatemala. Living standards in Cuba are far from being extraordinary, but still it's possible that many Latin Americans living in extreme poverty could envy an average and impoverished Cuban worker. I don't pretend to be an apologist of failed undemocratic regimes, but rather say there's no freedom without acceptable levels of social justice. Maybe some developed countries in Western Europe meet the standards, but that's not the case for Latin America. We shouldn't be so surprised when someone like Pedro Castillo emerges from out of nowhere and wins a presidential election in Perú

[It’s so Joever]

Communism can be helpful for very underdeveloped countries with near nonexistent infrastructure and a weak destabilized government, but it’s not some cure all. Cuba is far past that point, and communism does stunt growth past a certain point. Cuba needs to shift to a freer economy if they do want to see some strong growth both economically and in terms of living conditions.

[If my soul was made of stone]

Communism can be helpful for very underdeveloped countries with near nonexistent infrastructure and a weak destabilized government, but it’s not some cure all. Cuba is far past that point, and communism does stunt growth past a certain point. Cuba needs to shift to a freer economy if they do want to see some strong growth both economically and in terms of living conditions.

Growth "past a certain point" is one of the foundational myths of capitalism, and ultimately just accelerates its own demise. Indefinite growth in a world of finite resources is impossible. I'm not saying that Cuba has the ideal steady-state economy or anything, but the idea that capitalism is inherently the solution to either living standards or authoritarianism is absurd: just look at what Pinochet managed to do to his country and the massive improvements that basic regulations brought once he was deposed.

As with many others in this thread, I don't think that either the status quo or its most prominent international critics have the solution to improving things in Cuba, and I hope that international forces don't get too opportunistic.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

[
Cuba indeed has a very high literacy rate, and that is great - but so do many other countries (...)

You (well, maybe not you specifically) might well say that my criticism is just shallow consumerism and communist countries balanced this out by being more advanced in other areas. They did indeed have unprecedented levels of equality - in the sense that it didn't matter if you were a factory worker or an accountant, a tractor driver or a manager, you could always be sure that almost every Western European was better off than you. But yes, there was equality.

I think your criticism of communist regimes is legitimate and agree almost in everything with you. No doubt the Cuban regime is as failed as the communist regimes of Eastern Europe. However, I'd like to point out that Cuba is in Latin America. The literacy rate and the levels of well-being in that island must be compared to those of Haití, Perú or Guatemala. Living standards in Cuba are far from being extraordinary, but still it's possible that many Latin Americans living in extreme poverty could envy an average and impoverished Cuban worker. I don't pretend to be an apologist of failed undemocratic regimes, but rather say there's no freedom without acceptable levels of social justice. Maybe some developed countries in Western Europe meet the standards, but that's not the case for Latin America. We shouldn't be so surprised when someone like Pedro Castillo emerges from out of nowhere and wins a presidential election in Perú

Cuba was one of the richest countries in Latin America before Castro. It's not like they went from desperate poverty to wealth, they went from one of the top countries in the area in terms of living standards in the 50s (albeit with a repressive dictator and corruption) to one that's about average, and that's if you believe their massaged numbers. For comparison, the Dominican Republic in 1950 was only slightly richer than Haiti and today is considerably wealthier than Cuba even by their own numbers.

In other news, protesters are still protesting and police are still shooting protesters. The Cuban government is actually making some concessions on tariffs for food and medicine but nothing major (there were claims a general had resigned and they were quick to deny that).

https://twitter.com/banpercie/status/1415512275205636101

https://twitter.com/mjorgec1994/status/1415472948639641600

https://twitter.com/cubadebatecu/status/1415442951463968770

[Velasco]

Cuba was one of the richest countries in Latin America before Castro. It's not like they went from desperate poverty to wealth, they went from one of the top countries in the area in terms of living standards in the 50s (albeit with a repressive dictator and corruption) to one that's about average, and that's if you believe their massaged numbers. For comparison, the Dominican Republic in 1950 was only slightly richer than Haiti and today is considerably wealthier than Cuba even by their own numbers.

Before Castro Cuba was virtually a colony or a protectorate that exported sugar cane to the US, as well as a resort for some mafia bosses (see The Godfather, Part Two). No doubt Cuban elites and the friends of Batista thrived and profited from that trade, but not the Cuban people. If the average Cuban under Batista was so prosperous and happy, the success of the eevolutionary movement would have been more difficult (Castro was initially a nationalist, the conversion to communism came later). On the other hand, it's undeniable that US blockade has greatly contributed to impoverish Cuba, besides other factors like mismanagement or the demise of the USSR. I hope that you are not seriously vindicating that era, or mean that Cuba should become again a colony or a casino

Cuba must be a poor country in terms of GDP (it does not appear in the list, due to the lack of economic data) and the living standatds are low. But my point is that most of Latin America is afflicted by gross inequality, so the Cuban model (that I don't support) has appeal to some impoverished Latin Americans. For instance, Maradona was a great admirer of the Cuban Revolution.  Maradona became a millionaire due to his immense talent to play football, but his origins are in a poor slum of Greater Buenos Aires (a breeding ground for the loathed peronist populism)

Finally the sharp differences between Haiti and the Dominican Republic are a separate issue. The reasons to explain why Haití is so poor, while the Dominican Republuc is relatively prosperous, are related to deforestation (there exists a correlation between that and poverty levels) and the different colonial models implemented by the French and the Spanish.  The exploitation of natural resources in Haiti was intensive, in order to produce sugar cane for export. The French colony was once the richest in the Americas, a wealth built on the backs of African slaves brutally mistreated. After independence, Haiti was forced to pay a huge "compensation" to France, in order to avoid international ostracism. Those payments burdened the econony, while the process of deforestation continued and aggravated in the XX century. The Spanish Empire had more interest in the silver and gold mines located elsewhere in Mexico or Peru. The exploitation model in the Spanish side of Hispaniola was far less intensive and currently the Dominican Rrpublic is vegetated, while Haiti is a barren wasteland (the contrast is visible in satellite images) and is the poorest nation in the continent.

[(no subject)]

Cuba wasn’t a colony. That’s just bull plop in the same vein as blood for oil because if the USA wanted Cuba’s sugar or Iraq’s oil, it can just buy it. Socialism has collapsed since 1989. Its an obsolete 19th century ideology.

[CumbrianLefty]

Socialism has collapsed since 1989. Its an obsolete 19th century ideology.

This sort of stuff isn't clever, just tedious.

[FrancoAgo]

Socialism has collapsed since 1989. Its an obsolete 19th century ideology.

This sort of stuff isn't clever, just tedious.

and their ideology is older

[Alben Barkley]

Socialism has collapsed since 1989. Its an obsolete 19th century ideology.

This sort of stuff isn't clever, just tedious.

I understand. It’s a rather obvious fact, which can seem tedious.

and their ideology is older

And yet still far more relevant. As I said in the monarchism thread recently, a fundamental fallacy commies seem especially prone to is the assumption that newer always equals better. It most definitely does not.

I'm surprised to see so much support from red avatars here for the Cuban "protestors", after how Cubans turned into some of the staunchest and loudest Trumpists, arguably swung Florida into his column, and promulgated Trump's Big Lie afterwards; supposed moderate Carlos Gimenez even voted to reject PA and AZ electors on 1/6 after the coup. Haven't you learned by now that the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend? Why are you surprised that right-wing Cuban reactionaries did not magically turn into supporters of "freedom" when they came to the US and turned into, surprise surprise, right-wing American reactionaries?

1. Not all of us see everything that cynically. Some of us actually care about human rights and a better life for people, regardless of how they vote.

2. Even from a cynical, electoral-focused perspective, this provides an opportunity for Biden to show strength against the Cuban regime which could help in Florida. These voters trended D with Obama and Hillary. They aren’t necessarily “right-wing reactionaries” who are gone for good. Although they will be if crazy commies take over the party, so that needs to be stopped too.

[Alben Barkley]

I mean, you and all those who liked this ARE aware of the CIA's past record, right?

Its not actually necessary to whitewash the present Cuban regime to be wary of this.

Except every single commie is whitewashing the present Cuban regime anyway, first of all.

And second of all, there is nothing wrong with the CIA’s past record in Cuba. It would have been for the best had they succeeded in killing Castro and overthrowing his regime.

[2952-0-0]

And second of all, there is nothing wrong with the CIA’s past record in Cuba. It would have been for the best had they succeeded in killing Castro and overthrowing his regime.

Wait a second...so Russia unleashing Twitter trolls to spread pro-Trump memes was one step below an act of war, but the CIA supporting coups across Latin America - many of which toppled lawful and democratic governments - is nothing wrong?

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

If anyone is misinterpreting these protests, it's probably the American right-wing first and foremost, followed by the international right-wing. While they are clearly anti-regime, they are pretty focused on anger against the Cuban government bungling the move away from the dual currency system, attendant austerity measures and the sense that the regime cares more about tourists than it cares about Cubans. Protesters in Cuba appear to be very lower class and overwhelmingly Black. They aren't ideological and, insofar as they are, it's unlikely that they oppose the branding of socialism.

There are plenty of dissident leftists attending these protests and, yes, there is a dissident left in Cuba that supports democratic socialism or anarcho-communism or something similar. It's about as prominent as the dissident right and it's about as oppressed...

I'd add by saying that it's hard to begrudge Lula or MAS in Bolivia for being pro-regime because the Cuban government has greatly assisted the Brazilian and Bolivian people, even if it's through means that are pretty unsavory. Cuban healthcare humanitarianism raises all kinds of challenging moral questions. It is hard to imagine a poorer country having a program like this without exploiting its doctors and nurses but the program has been so beneficial and unparalleled that it's extremely hard to criticize it. I also suspect many Cuban doctors and nurses participating in it feel very proud of their achievements.

[H. Ross Peron]

Cuba wasn’t a colony. That’s just bull plop in the same vein as blood for oil because if the USA wanted Cuba’s sugar or Iraq’s oil, it can just buy it. Socialism has collapsed since 1989. Its an obsolete 19th century ideology.

I dont see how anyone can look at US Cuba relations pre-1959 and not see it as semi colonial at least. I agree that 20th Century Marxist Leninism has proven to be a failed model but *so* has neoliberal capitalism as 1990s Russia can attest.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The best analogy would be perhaps the relationship between Britain and Argentina during the early decades of the 20th century.

[Bilardista]

I'd add by saying that it's hard to begrudge Lula or MAS in Bolivia for being pro-regime because the Cuban government has greatly assisted the Brazilian and Bolivian people, even if it's through means that are pretty unsavory. Cuban healthcare humanitarianism raises all kinds of challenging moral questions. It is hard to imagine a poorer country having a program like this without exploiting its doctors and nurses but the program has been so beneficial and unparalleled that it's extremely hard to criticize it. I also suspect many Cuban doctors and nurses participating in it feel very proud of their achievements.

They're not pro-regime because the cuban government "assists the people", they're pro-regime because the cuban government assists them. Cuba doesn't intervene in other countries out of the kindness of their heart, they have a vested interest in helping like minded political movements succeed, that's why they've supported (to varying degrees) Morales, and Lula, and the Kirchners, these are all defenders of the cuban regime. And mine isn't a manichaean mentality, i'm more than willing to recognize the good work of those nurses and medics and celebrate the positive effect they had in poor communities, but it was still a policy originated from cuba's own (pretty imperialist) foreign interests, and based on the heavy exploitation of cuban workers. Here's an article from BBC detailing some of the working conditions of cuban medics, seems easy to critizize to me.

And while again, i'm not denying the positive effects of the "humanitarian assistance", Cuba is also participant in the venezuelan crisis, perhaps the worst humanitarian disaster in latin american history, as to this day, they sent thousands of cuban agents to provide military and intelligence assistance to the chavist regime. Not very different from what the US did in the middle east, but somehow the US is the "evil empire", while cuba is some poor, besieged victim.

Honestly, first world leftists might complain about american interventionism and fearmonger about some imaginary future invasion headed by Marco Rubio or the return of Batista as a zombie all they want, but as a latin american, i can't wait for the day the cuban dictatorship falls down and not just Cuba, but latin america as a whole  is free from the shadow of Castro and his totalitarian offspring.