More than 1 million nonbinary adults live in the US, study finds
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September 22, 2021, 09:41:11 AM

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  More than 1 million nonbinary adults live in the US, study finds
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Author Topic: More than 1 million nonbinary adults live in the US, study finds  (Read 1873 times)
Horus
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« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2021, 12:03:51 AM »

Is there really such a thing as a gender binary? I'm not convinced. What makes a person male or female?

Their chromosomes and genatalia.

No, he said gender.

I did, but still no one has answered. Obviously Dule's misgendering is uncouth, but all of this seems to be relative. Does playing with dolls make one effeminate? Does wanting to pursue a career in the military make one masculine?

We were starting to break those barriers in the past but I think the left has little interest in that anymore. The funny thing is that when I was growing up there was a big, and I'd argue positive, cultural push in society to recognize that being tomboy or sissy (purely for lack of a less rude word) had no bearing on the legitimacy of one's gender. This was reflected in a lot of the children's programming too. I remember there were little commercials on the Disney Channel when I was in elementary school where they'd profile boys that enjoyed volleyball or dancing and girls that liked reptiles or football. This always stuck out to me as a kid because I was never sporty or outdoorsy and was made to feel bad about it back then because boys weren't "supposed" to be the way I was. Now I feel like this wouldn't be encouraged, because it seems to go against the extremely rigid gender roles that are getting pushed these days.

Maybe getting a bit off the point of the thread, but I've brought up several times on here that I've yet to hear an example of a "brain sex" that isn't stereotypical and obviously socially constructed (i.e, playing with dolls or wanting to wear a dress). No one's ever corrected me and given better examples. Maybe someone could suggest more substantive things like women being more emotional or men having more spatial awareness, but even then I'm a bit dubious because there's not much actual evidence suggesting a biological cause for stuff like that. Not to mention that it flies in the face of everything feminists were saying just a couple years ago and you'd have been called a bigot for suggesting it. It causes problems in their rhetoric even now. Like, why are we calling men "toxic" for being unemotional if they're born that way? Wouldn't that be bigotry if it were the case?

Adults certainly have the right to get a sex or name change if they want to. The left's dialogue on this should really revolve around that instead of this incoherent ideology they appear to be making up as they go along.

Parts of said ideology are venturing dangerously close to how gender is viewed in Iran. Where a man cannot have sex with another man but if he switches his gender it's suddenly fine.

As a gay man, a lot of it makes me uncomfortable.
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Skunk
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« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2021, 12:10:49 AM »

You cis people are so weird.
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afleitch
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« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2021, 03:36:23 AM »

Is there really such a thing as a gender binary? I'm not convinced. What makes a person male or female?

Their chromosomes and genatalia.

No, he said gender.

I did, but still no one has answered. Obviously Dule's misgendering is uncouth, but all of this seems to be relative. Does playing with dolls make one effeminate? Does wanting to pursue a career in the military make one masculine?

We were starting to break those barriers in the past but I think the left has little interest in that anymore. The funny thing is that when I was growing up there was a big, and I'd argue positive, cultural push in society to recognize that being tomboy or sissy (purely for lack of a less rude word) had no bearing on the legitimacy of one's gender. This was reflected in a lot of the children's programming too. I remember there were little commercials on the Disney Channel when I was in elementary school where they'd profile boys that enjoyed volleyball or dancing and girls that liked reptiles or football. This always stuck out to me as a kid because I was never sporty or outdoorsy and was made to feel bad about it back then because boys weren't "supposed" to be the way I was. Now I feel like this wouldn't be encouraged, because it seems to go against the extremely rigid gender roles that are getting pushed these days.

Maybe getting a bit off the point of the thread, but I've brought up several times on here that I've yet to hear an example of a "brain sex" that isn't stereotypical and obviously socially constructed (i.e, playing with dolls or wanting to wear a dress). No one's ever corrected me and given better examples. Maybe someone could suggest more substantive things like women being more emotional or men having more spatial awareness, but even then I'm a bit dubious because there's not much actual evidence suggesting a biological cause for stuff like that. Not to mention that it flies in the face of everything feminists were saying just a couple years ago and you'd have been called a bigot for suggesting it. It causes problems in their rhetoric even now. Like, why are we calling men "toxic" for being unemotional if they're born that way? Wouldn't that be bigotry if it were the case?

Adults certainly have the right to get a sex or name change if they want to. The left's dialogue on this should really revolve around that instead of this incoherent ideology they appear to be making up as they go along.

Parts of said ideology are venturing dangerously close to how gender is viewed in Iran. Where a man cannot have sex with another man but if he switches his gender it's suddenly fine.

As a gay man, a lot of it makes me uncomfortable.

Wait till you find out where fringe anti-trans gender critical rhetoric is heading with respect to gay men in the UK.
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CELTICEMPIRE
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« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2021, 03:54:17 AM »

Effortlessly moronic statement from an intellectual sadist.

You know it's true though.
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« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2021, 04:16:04 AM »

Is there really such a thing as a gender binary? I'm not convinced. What makes a person male or female?

Their chromosomes and genatalia.

No, he said gender.

I did, but still no one has answered. Obviously Dule's misgendering is uncouth, but all of this seems to be relative. Does playing with dolls make one effeminate? Does wanting to pursue a career in the military make one masculine?

We were starting to break those barriers in the past but I think the left has little interest in that anymore. The funny thing is that when I was growing up there was a big, and I'd argue positive, cultural push in society to recognize that being tomboy or sissy (purely for lack of a less rude word) had no bearing on the legitimacy of one's gender. This was reflected in a lot of the children's programming too. I remember there were little commercials on the Disney Channel when I was in elementary school where they'd profile boys that enjoyed volleyball or dancing and girls that liked reptiles or football. This always stuck out to me as a kid because I was never sporty or outdoorsy and was made to feel bad about it back then because boys weren't "supposed" to be the way I was. Now I feel like this wouldn't be encouraged, because it seems to go against the extremely rigid gender roles that are getting pushed these days.

Maybe getting a bit off the point of the thread, but I've brought up several times on here that I've yet to hear an example of a "brain sex" that isn't stereotypical and obviously socially constructed (i.e, playing with dolls or wanting to wear a dress). No one's ever corrected me and given better examples. Maybe someone could suggest more substantive things like women being more emotional or men having more spatial awareness, but even then I'm a bit dubious because there's not much actual evidence suggesting a biological cause for stuff like that. Not to mention that it flies in the face of everything feminists were saying just a couple years ago and you'd have been called a bigot for suggesting it. It causes problems in their rhetoric even now. Like, why are we calling men "toxic" for being unemotional if they're born that way? Wouldn't that be bigotry if it were the case?

Adults certainly have the right to get a sex or name change if they want to. The left's dialogue on this should really revolve around that instead of this incoherent ideology they appear to be making up as they go along.

It's amazing how the gender theory crew leans so willingly into lazy stereotypes. Male TV characters who like cooking are referred to as "queercoded." Little boys who show interest in clothes are suspected to be gay years before they even hit puberty. Assertive, physically strong women are told that they fall somewhere closer to men on the "gender spectrum" and are called "butch." Trans people claim to "challenge gender roles" while nonetheless trying to physically conform to the generic template of either male or female. We will soon reach a point at which deviations from gender roles are once again frowned upon by the left, because they will have so embraced these stereotypes in a desperate attempt to affirm themselves.
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afleitch
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« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2021, 04:35:26 AM »

Is there really such a thing as a gender binary? I'm not convinced. What makes a person male or female?

Their chromosomes and genatalia.

No, he said gender.

I did, but still no one has answered. Obviously Dule's misgendering is uncouth, but all of this seems to be relative. Does playing with dolls make one effeminate? Does wanting to pursue a career in the military make one masculine?

We were starting to break those barriers in the past but I think the left has little interest in that anymore. The funny thing is that when I was growing up there was a big, and I'd argue positive, cultural push in society to recognize that being tomboy or sissy (purely for lack of a less rude word) had no bearing on the legitimacy of one's gender. This was reflected in a lot of the children's programming too. I remember there were little commercials on the Disney Channel when I was in elementary school where they'd profile boys that enjoyed volleyball or dancing and girls that liked reptiles or football. This always stuck out to me as a kid because I was never sporty or outdoorsy and was made to feel bad about it back then because boys weren't "supposed" to be the way I was. Now I feel like this wouldn't be encouraged, because it seems to go against the extremely rigid gender roles that are getting pushed these days.

Maybe getting a bit off the point of the thread, but I've brought up several times on here that I've yet to hear an example of a "brain sex" that isn't stereotypical and obviously socially constructed (i.e, playing with dolls or wanting to wear a dress). No one's ever corrected me and given better examples. Maybe someone could suggest more substantive things like women being more emotional or men having more spatial awareness, but even then I'm a bit dubious because there's not much actual evidence suggesting a biological cause for stuff like that. Not to mention that it flies in the face of everything feminists were saying just a couple years ago and you'd have been called a bigot for suggesting it. It causes problems in their rhetoric even now. Like, why are we calling men "toxic" for being unemotional if they're born that way? Wouldn't that be bigotry if it were the case?

Adults certainly have the right to get a sex or name change if they want to. The left's dialogue on this should really revolve around that instead of this incoherent ideology they appear to be making up as they go along.

It's amazing how the gender theory crew leans so willingly into lazy stereotypes. Male TV characters who like cooking are referred to as "queercoded." Little boys who show interest in clothes are suspected to be gay years before they even hit puberty. Assertive, physically strong women are told that they fall somewhere closer to men on the "gender spectrum" and are called "butch." Trans people claim to "challenge gender roles" while nonetheless trying to physically conform to the generic template of either male or female. We will soon reach a point at which deviations from gender roles are once again frowned upon by the left, because they will have so embraced these stereotypes in a desperate attempt to affirm themselves.

You don't understand what 'queercoding' is. There's a few good academic videos I could share with you.
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Slouching Towards Phrygia
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« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2021, 04:49:59 AM »


Only insofar as gender non-conformity on the whole has been made political by its opponents trying to oppress and discredit it. However, given that living as my true self is inherently political, I try to embrace the radical aspect of it to spite people who think that we should assimilate and not make any noise.
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« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2021, 07:48:06 AM »


Only insofar as gender non-conformity on the whole has been made political by its opponents trying to oppress and discredit it. However, given that living as my true self is inherently political, I try to embrace the radical aspect of it to spite people who think that we should assimilate and not make any noise.

No one is going to stop you from not conforming to traditional gender roles.
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America Needs Immanuel Kant
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« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2021, 08:31:23 AM »
« Edited: June 24, 2021, 10:24:06 AM by YE »


Don't play games with me. You're neither cute nor smart enough to pull it off.

When you hold a bigotry hammer in your hand, everything seems like a nail. And you claim their mere existence is political when your ilk are the ones welding the power of the state to disrupt their lives.

Good lord. This is the exact same line you people have on discussing transgender rights. Somehow the trans community are the ones who are "political" by existence even though it is empty-headed conservatives like you who want to use the power of the state against literal teenagers.
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Horus
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« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2021, 08:45:22 AM »

Is there really such a thing as a gender binary? I'm not convinced. What makes a person male or female?

Their chromosomes and genatalia.

No, he said gender.

I did, but still no one has answered. Obviously Dule's misgendering is uncouth, but all of this seems to be relative. Does playing with dolls make one effeminate? Does wanting to pursue a career in the military make one masculine?

We were starting to break those barriers in the past but I think the left has little interest in that anymore. The funny thing is that when I was growing up there was a big, and I'd argue positive, cultural push in society to recognize that being tomboy or sissy (purely for lack of a less rude word) had no bearing on the legitimacy of one's gender. This was reflected in a lot of the children's programming too. I remember there were little commercials on the Disney Channel when I was in elementary school where they'd profile boys that enjoyed volleyball or dancing and girls that liked reptiles or football. This always stuck out to me as a kid because I was never sporty or outdoorsy and was made to feel bad about it back then because boys weren't "supposed" to be the way I was. Now I feel like this wouldn't be encouraged, because it seems to go against the extremely rigid gender roles that are getting pushed these days.

Maybe getting a bit off the point of the thread, but I've brought up several times on here that I've yet to hear an example of a "brain sex" that isn't stereotypical and obviously socially constructed (i.e, playing with dolls or wanting to wear a dress). No one's ever corrected me and given better examples. Maybe someone could suggest more substantive things like women being more emotional or men having more spatial awareness, but even then I'm a bit dubious because there's not much actual evidence suggesting a biological cause for stuff like that. Not to mention that it flies in the face of everything feminists were saying just a couple years ago and you'd have been called a bigot for suggesting it. It causes problems in their rhetoric even now. Like, why are we calling men "toxic" for being unemotional if they're born that way? Wouldn't that be bigotry if it were the case?

Adults certainly have the right to get a sex or name change if they want to. The left's dialogue on this should really revolve around that instead of this incoherent ideology they appear to be making up as they go along.

Parts of said ideology are venturing dangerously close to how gender is viewed in Iran. Where a man cannot have sex with another man but if he switches his gender it's suddenly fine.

As a gay man, a lot of it makes me uncomfortable.

Wait till you find out where fringe anti-trans gender critical rhetoric is heading with respect to gay men in the UK.

I really don't care what a few bitter man hating RadFem women shaped like a sack of potatoes think either. Also not my crowd.
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CELTICEMPIRE
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« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2021, 08:46:55 AM »
« Edited: June 24, 2021, 10:25:43 AM by YE »


Don't play games with me. You're neither cute nor smart enough to pull it off.

When you hold a bigotry hammer in your hand, everything seems like a nail. And you claim their mere existence is political when your ilk are the ones welding the power of the state to disrupt their lives.

Good lord. This is the exact same line you people have on discussing transgender rights. Somehow the trans community are the ones who are "political" by existence even though it is empty-headed conservatives like you who want to use the power of the state against literal teenagers.

I'm not saying that the state should stop people from identifying as non-binary.
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Fmr. Gov. NickG
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« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2021, 12:50:50 PM »
« Edited: June 24, 2021, 01:58:44 PM by Fmr. Gov. NickG »

I do think it's likely that there are some people who are legitimately non-binary; i.e. they feel genuine gender dysphoria over identifying with either gender.

But I also get the impression that a significant number of people who now identify as nonbinary don't actually experience any dysphoria in the medical sense.

Rather, they are mostly just embracing an aesthetic that has become popular within a certain Gen-Z niche.  Somewhat like the kids who identified as "goths" back when I was in high school.
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2021, 01:12:12 PM »

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/nonbinary-lgbtq-adults-us/

apparently 58% of "nonbinary adults" are "cis" (19% cis men + 39% cis women)?  How does that work?

This artifact of the data comes from the Williams report not wanting to stake firm ground on the question of whether or not nonbinary-identified people automatically get the "transgender" label as well.  In trying to be accomodating, the researchers allowed cis (i.e, non-trans identifying) people to label themselves as nonbinary even though that goes against a lot of the social and political movement work.  The result is a completely unusable and unscientific report where respondents are allowed to check as many identities as they like without any working definition of what the terms mean in reality.
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Slouching Towards Phrygia
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« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2021, 02:00:15 PM »

I do think it's likely that there are some people who a legitimately non-binary; i.e. they feel genuine gender dysphoria over identifying with either gender.

But I also get the impression that a significant number of people who now identify as nonbinary don't actually experience any dysphoria in the medical sense.

Rather, they are mostly just embracing an aesthetic that has become popular within a certain Gen-Z niche.  Somewhat like the kids who identified as "goths" back when I was in high school.

The debate over "transmedicalism" (believing that dysphoria is required to identify as transgender) is ancient and ugly, and best avoided. While it's possible for some cases, it's generally not considerate to jump to the assumption that people choose to identify as trans, and thus incur all of the associated risks, merely as an aesthetic statement.
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Yang Gang
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« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2021, 03:56:48 PM »

Based and heckin valid
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Fmr. Gov. NickG
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« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2021, 07:29:51 PM »

I do think it's likely that there are some people who a legitimately non-binary; i.e. they feel genuine gender dysphoria over identifying with either gender.

But I also get the impression that a significant number of people who now identify as nonbinary don't actually experience any dysphoria in the medical sense.

Rather, they are mostly just embracing an aesthetic that has become popular within a certain Gen-Z niche.  Somewhat like the kids who identified as "goths" back when I was in high school.

The debate over "transmedicalism" (believing that dysphoria is required to identify as transgender) is ancient and ugly, and best avoided. While it's possible for some cases, it's generally not considerate to jump to the assumption that people choose to identify as trans, and thus incur all of the associated risks, merely as an aesthetic statement.

But isnít the medical basis for gender dysphoria the primary reason why identifying as transgender is seen as legitimate while identifying as transracial is not?
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John Dule
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« Reply #66 on: June 24, 2021, 07:41:12 PM »

I do think it's likely that there are some people who a legitimately non-binary; i.e. they feel genuine gender dysphoria over identifying with either gender.

But I also get the impression that a significant number of people who now identify as nonbinary don't actually experience any dysphoria in the medical sense.

Rather, they are mostly just embracing an aesthetic that has become popular within a certain Gen-Z niche.  Somewhat like the kids who identified as "goths" back when I was in high school.

The debate over "transmedicalism" (believing that dysphoria is required to identify as transgender) is ancient and ugly, and best avoided. While it's possible for some cases, it's generally not considerate to jump to the assumption that people choose to identify as trans, and thus incur all of the associated risks, merely as an aesthetic statement.

But isnít the medical basis for gender dysphoria the primary reason why identifying as transgender is seen as legitimate while identifying as transracial is not?

Diagnosable gender dysphoria is also the basis for the trans activist arguments for insurance companies covering reassignment surgery, and for requiring prisons to pay for surgery for trans inmates. Without any objective or diagnosable medical criteria, it is essentially no different from cosmetic surgery.
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"?"
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« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2021, 04:43:57 AM »
« Edited: June 25, 2021, 04:54:11 AM by "?" »

I do think it's likely that there are some people who are legitimately non-binary; i.e. they feel genuine gender dysphoria over identifying with either gender.

But I also get the impression that a significant number of people who now identify as nonbinary don't actually experience any dysphoria in the medical sense.

Rather, they are mostly just embracing an aesthetic that has become popular within a certain Gen-Z niche.  Somewhat like the kids who identified as "goths" back when I was in high school.


1. That take takes me back to high school when folks coming out were scoffed as millennials just "going through a phase" or "following a fad", not unlike wearing skinny jeans. The more things change Roll Eyes

2. What a murderers row that is the list of recommendations. Only folks missing are OP & DaleCooper.
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« Reply #68 on: June 25, 2021, 07:05:47 AM »

Even if there was so contingent of people who aren't really trans (whatever that's supposed to mean), who cares. Just let people live their lives. Not sure why the continued maintenance of rigid gender roles is so important to so many people here
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Horus
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« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2021, 07:16:58 AM »

I do think it's likely that there are some people who are legitimately non-binary; i.e. they feel genuine gender dysphoria over identifying with either gender.

But I also get the impression that a significant number of people who now identify as nonbinary don't actually experience any dysphoria in the medical sense.

Rather, they are mostly just embracing an aesthetic that has become popular within a certain Gen-Z niche.  Somewhat like the kids who identified as "goths" back when I was in high school.


1. That take takes me back to high school when folks coming out were scoffed as millennials just "going through a phase" or "following a fad", not unlike wearing skinny jeans. The more things change Roll Eyes

2. What a murderers row that is the list of recommendations. Only folks missing are OP & DaleCooper.

Why are you always so obsessed with who recommends posts?
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Fmr. Gov. NickG
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« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2021, 08:51:27 AM »

Even if there was so contingent of people who aren't really trans (whatever that's supposed to mean), who cares. Just let people live their lives. Not sure why the continued maintenance of rigid gender roles is so important to so many people here

I totally agree with this.  People should be able to look the way they want, dress the way they want, use whatever name they want, and accept or reject any "gender roles" that they want.

But if we are going to be accepting of an otherwise privileged person adopting a trans identity without experiencing dysphoria or discrimination or any of the other negative aspects of this transition that trans people has historical experienced, why are we so quick to condemn an otherwise privileged person who wishes to embrace some aspects of the identity of another race or culture?
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Slouching Towards Phrygia
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« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2021, 09:09:51 AM »

Even if there was so contingent of people who aren't really trans (whatever that's supposed to mean), who cares. Just let people live their lives. Not sure why the continued maintenance of rigid gender roles is so important to so many people here

I totally agree with this.  People should be able to look the way they want, dress the way they want, use whatever name they want, and accept or reject any "gender roles" that they want.

But if we are going to be accepting of an otherwise privileged person adopting a trans identity without experiencing dysphoria or discrimination or any of the other negative aspects of this transition that trans people has historical experienced, why are we so quick to condemn an otherwise privileged person who wishes to embrace some aspects of the identity of another race or culture?


If someone identifies affirmatively as trans and makes it known, then they're bound to experience discrimination at some point. This thread is conclusive proof of that.

The key difference in your analogy is that identifying a certain gender is all that's needed to "become" that gender, while identifying as part of a different race, ethnic group, or socioeconomic class cannot make you a part of it.
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Blue3
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« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2021, 10:37:37 AM »

Iím only surprised that itís not more.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2021, 10:42:19 AM »

Iím only surprised that itís not more.

It definitely is more, since I don't think they're taking into account closeted individuals.
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« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2021, 10:56:15 AM »

I do think it's likely that there are some people who are legitimately non-binary; i.e. they feel genuine gender dysphoria over identifying with either gender.

But I also get the impression that a significant number of people who now identify as nonbinary don't actually experience any dysphoria in the medical sense.

Rather, they are mostly just embracing an aesthetic that has become popular within a certain Gen-Z niche.  Somewhat like the kids who identified as "goths" back when I was in high school.


1. That take takes me back to high school when folks coming out were scoffed as millennials just "going through a phase" or "following a fad", not unlike wearing skinny jeans. The more things change Roll Eyes

2. What a murderers row that is the list of recommendations. Only folks missing are OP & DaleCooper.

Why are you always so obsessed with who recommends posts?

A lot of red avatars try to invalidate arguments by pointing out that bad people liked it. The social media obsession probably plays a big part too.
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