Summer of Football thread: Euro 2020(1), Copa America, CONCACAF Gold Cup

[parochial boy]

There does seem to be something particular about the England football team that brings out the angriest, most resentful, most unpleasant side of English nationalism.

Like, I remember going to the Champions League final in Kiev in 2018 and the Liverpool fans were absolutely brilliant. Like amazing fun, super friendly, created probably the best atmosphere I have ever experienced at any football event. So its not like it's a problem withe English football culture in itself. There's just a side that seems to come out when it is specifically England who are playing

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There does seem to be something particular about the England football team that brings out the angriest, most resentful, most unpleasant side of English nationalism.

Like, I remember going to the Champions League final in Kiev in 2018 and the Liverpool fans were absolutely brilliant. Like amazing fun, super friendly, created probably the best atmosphere I have ever experienced at any football event. So its not like it's a problem withe English football culture in itself. There's just a side that seems to come out when it is specifically England who are playing

A lot of it is linked to the insanity - whipped up by the media to the point of genuine hysteria - that followed narrow SF defeats in 1990 and 1996.* In fact, well, look at the ages of the people who are the main Problem with this sort of nonsense and... er... yeah. It actually isn't as bad as it was and is confined to a smaller minority than before, but it really does need to be dealt with better. My view is that they find as many serious offenders as possible through footage or whatever else, name them and ban them for life from all football matches.

_{*Maybe we shouldn't be surprised that Gareth Southgate was, when push came to shove, unable to think rationally about planning a penalty shootout given the abuse he was subject to after '96. It's amazing that he stayed in football.}

[Cassius]

It was always going to end in tears. England are a side packed with extremely talented players (although what else would you expect from a country with such a strong footballing tradition and a large population) who generally speaking carried themselves with excellent deportment during the tournament (which is more than can be said for some previous English sides). But, you know, they weren’t that great. They came away with two scrappy wins and a draw in the pool, a decent win over a weak German side in the last-16, a victory over a very weak Ukrainian side in the QF and another scrappy win against Denmark in the SF. Even if it was at Wembley the chances of it ‘coming home’ were always slim against an Italian side who were clearly better and who had faced a trickier path to the final.

This was really barely acknowledged by the press and the punditry, who after the Germany game basically went full bore with the standard ‘this is the greatest England side since the last England side that we said were the greatest England side since ‘66… it’s coming home’ propaganda (best exemplified by Rio Ferdinand’s now ludicrous performance as a pundit on the BBC). Added to this was the torrent of w*** written about the team being ‘role models’, ‘moral leaders’, ‘Gareth Southgate should be PM’ et al, a torrent of w*** that, ultimately, Southgate attempted to surf as well (for what reason I can’t say). Both of these currents contributed to a pretty hysterical build-up to a final that England were, really, never the favorites for, and the enormous let down they have today.

Of course elements of the England fan base are deeply unpleasant; this has always been the case, Southgate himself was subjected to random abuse by members of the public after his miss in ‘96, the difference then being that the abuse took place in the pre-social media era and that in those days verbal abuse was largely something a player was expected to lump. I think the press, the punditry and, frankly, Southgate himself, did the players a disservice by going the whole hog on the ‘England team as moral crusaders’ theme, given that it was so unnecessary and a red rag to a bull to a particular section of the fanbase (not all of whom are necessarily skinheaded Doc-Martinets, but who aren’t above hurling a racial epithet at a player they’ve taken a dislike to). Perhaps it’s too much to ask, but the attitude should have been ‘they’re a football team, best of luck to them and hopefully they go out there and win something’, instead of the orgiastic display of hysteria that we got (which motivated me to not lend my support to England this time around). But perhaps that really is too much to ask and now we have to sit through the latest ‘moral reckoning’ instead.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Meanwhile, look at any of these pictures of scenes in Italian cities. No glass in the street.

Well, yes, the final was not being hosted there. There's certainly a toxic element to Ingerland fan culture and it needs to be dealt with more seriously than it has been, but football related violence is not exactly unknown in Italy and there are some extremely rancid elements to wider fan culture there as well.

And inevitably...

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1414616827167137795

[President Johnson]

Congrats to Italy for a deserved win. They were overall the better team in the final match except for the first 15 minutes. Truly disgusting are the racist rants over the players who failed in the penalties.

Yesterday it almost felt like Germany had won as several Italians celebrated with singing and horns in the streets here.

[Zinneke]

Italians in Brussels and all over who haven't set a foot in a football stadium before waxing lyrical about how England supporters are shameful and the "good guys won". Do they remember the countless times there have been stabbings or moped attacks or racist chanting in their stadiums? And how when Feyernoord rioted in Rome, "England style", because two of their supporters were stabbed and in an ICU, and broke a piece of some ancient statue the Italian press cried and started calling the Dutch "barbarians" and "sub-humans" in their press? Hardly ones to talk. I mean, there is a reason other European teams fear a trip to Italy more than to the UK

There does seem to be something particular about the England football team that brings out the angriest, most resentful, most unpleasant side of English nationalism.

Like, I remember going to the Champions League final in Kiev in 2018 and the Liverpool fans were absolutely brilliant. Like amazing fun, super friendly, created probably the best atmosphere I have ever experienced at any football event. So its not like it's a problem withe English football culture in itself. There's just a side that seems to come out when it is specifically England who are playing

Liverpool fans don't tend to follow England the way other clubs do. In terms of organised support, etc.

Also Adrian Durham seems like a terrible journalist but he made a valid point : the biggest issue is how coked up some of the lad culture in Britain gets. The boozing obviously also helps, the "culture" too. But on average Brits drink less than French and Spanish people, but in far more constrained, coked up environments.

Another thing is how loudly England supporters make their present felt, including the hooligan element. So they'll take over a square and riot because its this sort of way of claiming their territory "over land and sea". The hooligan culture in literally every other European country (save maybe Scotland and the Netherlands) tends to try to stay discrete and organize raids/fights on enemy pubs. It might be because jail in the UK is less worrying than jail in the Ukraine, but a Ukrainian bunch for example would not get itself arrested or publicly show off. Its a strange thing.

[afleitch]

Again, there are real problems with Ingerland fan culture and they do need to be dealt with (there's been a tendency recently to laugh it off and act as if it's all ironic, and, well, clearly it is isn't) but the idea that English football culture is uniquely Problematic is absolute rubbish.

I certainly don't disagree (see Rangers passim) that there's an element of football culture that if exaggerated and triumphalist, has a tendency to overwhelm 'good fans.'

The difference this time is that the England team were very much a proxy for the culture war and to see Farage, GBNews wet wipes, Boris etc be utter sh-ts before the competition, then flag wave at the end and whip up the sentiment that has led to the anthem booing, and more than likely to the casual racism after the game really just re-iterated everything that everyone hates about England; it's never the team, never the players. It's the 'fans'. And by fans, it's not those at home watching it on the telly or even most watching it at the stadium, but the louts and the political flag shaggers.

[beesley]

There does seem to be something particular about the England football team that brings out the angriest, most resentful, most unpleasant side of English nationalism.

Like, I remember going to the Champions League final in Kiev in 2018 and the Liverpool fans were absolutely brilliant. Like amazing fun, super friendly, created probably the best atmosphere I have ever experienced at any football event. So its not like it's a problem withe English football culture in itself. There's just a side that seems to come out when it is specifically England who are playing

Yes, because a lot of the so-called football hooligans aren't big fans of club football or even football at all.

[Zinneke]

There does seem to be something particular about the England football team that brings out the angriest, most resentful, most unpleasant side of English nationalism.

Like, I remember going to the Champions League final in Kiev in 2018 and the Liverpool fans were absolutely brilliant. Like amazing fun, super friendly, created probably the best atmosphere I have ever experienced at any football event. So its not like it's a problem withe English football culture in itself. There's just a side that seems to come out when it is specifically England who are playing

Yes, because a lot of the so-called football hooligans aren't big fans of club football or even football at all.

there's probably a phenomenon of football clubs issuing stadium bans and England tickets being easier to access so more hools there but I imagine the main reason we hear more about them at England games is that more first time goers show up and are surprised by the events. Add to that the scale being bigger.

How many kids, cameras, journos turn up to Leeds vs Millwall though? If they played a cup final at Wembley there would be similar headlines.

[YL]

Tyrone Mings responds to Priti Patel:

https://twitter.com/OfficialTM_3/status/1414655312074784785

[Suburbia]

https://twitter.com/MarcusRashford/status/1414672529717964807

Rashford says he will NEVER apologize for who he is and he will continue to battle for social change worldwide....

[Suburbia]

Tyrone Mings responds to Priti Patel:

https://twitter.com/OfficialTM_3/status/1414655312074784785

This will motivate England even more.....

Explain to me why England can't win the Qatar Cup in 2022....

[Cassius]

I’m not really sure that the average knucklehead abusing Rashford et al pays much mind to whatever Johnson and Patel have to say. I doubt the situation would have unfolded any differently even if we had Prime Minister Corbyn flopping to the floor every five minutes.

[Alcibiades]

I’m not really sure that the average knucklehead abusing Rashford et al pays much mind to whatever Johnson and Patel have to say. I doubt the situation would have unfolded any differently even if we had Prime Minister Corbyn flopping to the floor every five minutes.

I mean, it doesn’t change the fact that their behaviour has been nakedly hypocritical and cynically politically oppurtunistic (more so than is usual for politicians trying to exploit sport).

[Cassius]

I’m not really sure that the average knucklehead abusing Rashford et al pays much mind to whatever Johnson and Patel have to say. I doubt the situation would have unfolded any differently even if we had Prime Minister Corbyn flopping to the floor every five minutes.

I mean, it doesn’t change the fact that their behaviour has been nakedly hypocritical and cynically politically oppurtunistic (more so than is usual for politicians trying to exploit sport).

Well Boris Johnson is Boris Johnson, so opportunism is a given and I don’t think it’s especially worse than it has been on previous occasions, after all we all remember the Olympic farrago and some of us will be aware of Blair’s awarding OBE’s to the entire English test team of the 2005 Ashes (including Paul ‘Seven Runs’ Collingwood). I don’t really see the hypocrisy here. One can criticise kneeling down and one can also criticise the abuse of players on social media. This is just another one of those gotcha moments - if they’d remained silent or issued more tepid condemnations (you can’t really get more condemnatory than stating it’s a matter for the police after all) then they’d have been pilloried for that too.

[Alcibiades]

I’m not really sure that the average knucklehead abusing Rashford et al pays much mind to whatever Johnson and Patel have to say. I doubt the situation would have unfolded any differently even if we had Prime Minister Corbyn flopping to the floor every five minutes.

I mean, it doesn’t change the fact that their behaviour has been nakedly hypocritical and cynically politically oppurtunistic (more so than is usual for politicians trying to exploit sport).

Well Boris Johnson is Boris Johnson, so opportunism is a given and I don’t think it’s especially worse than it has been on previous occasions, after all we all remember the Olympic farrago and some of us will be aware of Blair’s awarding OBE’s to the entire English test team of the 2005 Ashes (including Paul ‘Seven Runs’ Collingwood). I don’t really see the hypocrisy here. One can criticise kneeling down and one can also criticise the abuse of players on social media. This is just another one of those gotcha moments - if they’d remained silent or issued more tepid condemnations (you can’t really get more condemnatory than stating it’s a matter for the police after all) then they’d have been pilloried for that too.

I think the thing that sits so badly with many people is he and Patel saying that it was okay to boo your own players, which is pretty much the worst display of disloyalty possible in football, then trying to tie themselves to the team’s success.

[Suburbia]

Harry Kane wants those racist English boors to go away if they are racist.

https://twitter.com/HKane/status/1414639048031805441

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Tyrone Mings responds to Priti Patel:

https://twitter.com/OfficialTM_3/status/1414655312074784785

This will motivate England even more.....

Explain to me why England can't win the Qatar Cup in 2022....

Because there are no less than half a dozen teams better than them and they only got so far in this instance because of the luckiest of draws that put everyone with a serious title shot on the top half of the bracket. The hype here is because they nearly upset one superior team (and still failed) and in all likelihood, they would need to defeat three in a row next year.

France, Belgium, Italy, Argentina, Brazil, Spain are all better squads. A few others are not far behind England. Germany might not rebuild soon enough because of the really short turnaround induced by COVID. Denmark will hopefully have Eriksen back, we pray.

[Suburbia]

Tyrone Mings responds to Priti Patel:

https://twitter.com/OfficialTM_3/status/1414655312074784785

This will motivate England even more.....

Explain to me why England can't win the Qatar Cup in 2022....

Because there are no less than half a dozen teams better than them and they only got so far in this instance because of the luckiest of draws that put everyone with a serious title shot on the top half of the bracket. The hype here is because they nearly upset one superior team (and still failed) and in all likelihood, they would need to defeat three in a row next year.

France, Belgium, Italy, Argentina, Brazil, Spain are all better squads. A few others are not far behind England. Germany might not rebuild soon enough because of the really short turnaround induced by COVID. Denmark will hopefully have Eriksen back, we pray.

We will see....sport team losses like these fuel players to right the wrong. 2018 France did it after losing the Euro 2016 to Portugal.......

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1414500984403935236

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob

Liberal commentators like James O'Brien warns the Tories they will not allow racist abuse to get innocent people killed....not this time...

[Suburbia]

Honestly, if England isn't sanctioned for the racist abuse of players/fan violence as a result of losing the Euro's I might riot.

I think barring them from the 2022 World Cup would be the best way to send a clear message that this won't be tolerated going forward.

Banning England from World Cup contention would be a big disaster, why stunt them when they are in their growth and were runners-up in the Euros?

[Suburbia]

The young man who faced the most assault has finally spoken....

https://twitter.com/BukayoSaka87/status/1415692762708680717

He gets support internationally, even from Maryland Lt. Gov. Boyd Rutherford, a Black conservative....

https://twitter.com/BoydKRutherford/status/1415727401779171329

Rutherford would have been a good candidate in MD to keep it in GOP hands, but the MDGOP may go Trumpist soon, but other than that, all three men have spoken, including Jadon Sancho.

https://twitter.com/Sanchooo10/status/1415348669809823751

Britain in general needs a check up on race, and that government report they released on race a few months ago looks foolish.....

[Battista Minola 1616]

Italians in Brussels and all over who haven't set a foot in a football stadium before waxing lyrical about how England supporters are shameful and the "good guys won". Do they remember the countless times there have been stabbings or moped attacks or racist chanting in their stadiums? And how when Feyernoord rioted in Rome, "England style", because two of their supporters were stabbed and in an ICU, and broke a piece of some ancient statue the Italian press cried and started calling the Dutch "barbarians" and "sub-humans" in their press? Hardly ones to talk. I mean, there is a reason other European teams fear a trip to Italy more than to the UK

To be fair, I think you could excuse Italians in Brussels specifically for remembering better this incident. Also, are you using the Feyenoord riots in Rome that ruined the Barcaccia fountain in 2015 as a point against Italians? Uhm... okay. Now of course, Italian supporters are hardly "good guys" in a general sense.

[Santander]

Remember when Bonucci said Moise Kean is 50% to blame for being racially abused by Cagliari fans? lol.

[Zinneke]

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Italians in Brussels and all over who haven't set a foot in a football stadium before waxing lyrical about how England supporters are shameful and the "good guys won". Do they remember the countless times there have been stabbings or moped attacks or racist chanting in their stadiums? And how when Feyernoord rioted in Rome, "England style", because two of their supporters were stabbed and in an ICU, and broke a piece of some ancient statue the Italian press cried and started calling the Dutch "barbarians" and "sub-humans" in their press? Hardly ones to talk. I mean, there is a reason other European teams fear a trip to Italy more than to the UK

To be fair, I think you could excuse Italians in Brussels specifically for remembering better this incident. Also, are you using the Feyenoord riots in Rome that ruined the Barcaccia fountain in 2015 as a point against Italians? Uhm... okay. Now of course, Italian supporters are hardly "good guys" in a general sense.

What I'm saying is, is that the brand of hooligan that caused Heysel has fundementally changed in the UK, whereas that brand still exists, albeit more discrete in Italy.

And...yeah...you realise Feyernoord rioted because of a) Italian police overreacting to their presence in Rome city center and b) two Feyernoord fans in ICU stabbed up the arse. And how did the Italian media react? "Olandesi barbari"...It's the hypocrisy that gets me.

[Suburbia]

Remember when Bonucci said Moise Kean is 50% to blame for being racially abused by Cagliari fans? lol.

Yeah, Bonucci should not have said that. Racism and prejudice should NOT be allowed at ANY games, if it continues, they should use the cameras they have at stadiums and identify the hooligans and ban them from attending games. Same thing in America, Africa, anywhere in the world.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/03/football/moise-kean-juventus-racism-serie-a-spt-intl/index.html

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/47798392