Biden infrastructure/tax increase megathread

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

https://twitter.com/HotlineJosh/status/1479424484381712387


https://twitter.com/HotlineJosh/status/1479906202263953408

Manchin’s $1.8 trillion spending offer appears no longer to be on the table
The West Virginia Democrat, who has consulted Mitt Romney and Trump’s former economic adviser, had backed climate and education spending, but talks are now on ice

The week before Christmas, Sen. Joe Manchin III sent the White House a $1.8 trillion counteroffer to President Biden’s Build Back Better agenda that included substantial funds for climate, health-care and education initiatives.

About four weeks later, the West Virginia Democrat has made clear that he does not currently support advancing even that offer following a breakdown in negotiations between Manchin and the White House right before Christmas, three people with knowledge of the matter said.

Manchin said publicly this week that he was no longer involved in talks with the White House over the economic package. Privately, he has also made clear that he is not interested in approving legislation resembling Biden’s Build Back Better package and that Democrats should fundamentally rethink their approach. Senior Democrats say they do not believe Manchin would support his offer even if the White House tried adopting it in full — at least not at the moment — following the fallout in mid-December. The people spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private conversations.

Negotiations deteriorated quickly in December after a White House news release named Manchin as the obstacle to passing the legislation. Manchin then surprised the administration by criticizing the bill on Fox News, after which the White House released a blistering statement calling his credibility into question. Manchin, who has drawn protesters’ ire because of his opposition to the legislation, later said the decision to name him in the news release imperiled the safety of his family.

Ron Klain and Psaki should be fired.

[It’s so Joever]

If this is possible, President Biden should start to relocate the government operations that Senator Robert Byrd brought to West Virginia.

Make Senator Manchin's legacy be the end of Senator Byrd's legacy to West Virginia.

To explain it in a way that Senator Manchin would claim to understand: it's hard to believe that having these government operations in West Virginia is the most efficient place they could be located. Surely Senator Manchin doesn't want to see tax dollars being unnecessarily spent.

Nut.

Why?

Are you even familiar with Senator Robert Byrd and how, due to him, West Virginia has a large disproportionate number of federal government operations there relative to its population?

Yes. That’s why I would have a mega nut if government facilities left WV.
Let the voters have why they want.

[Benjamin Frank]

If this is possible, President Biden should start to relocate the government operations that Senator Robert Byrd brought to West Virginia.

Make Senator Manchin's legacy be the end of Senator Byrd's legacy to West Virginia.

To explain it in a way that Senator Manchin would claim to understand: it's hard to believe that having these government operations in West Virginia is the most efficient place they could be located. Surely Senator Manchin doesn't want to see tax dollars being unnecessarily spent.

Nut.

Why?

Are you even familiar with Senator Robert Byrd and how, due to him, West Virginia has a large disproportionate number of federal government operations there relative to its population?

Yes. That’s why I would have a mega nut if government facilities left WV.
Let the voters have why they want.

Do you think the voters in the rest of the United States want West Virginia to have a disproportionate number of federal government operations?

[It’s so Joever]

If this is possible, President Biden should start to relocate the government operations that Senator Robert Byrd brought to West Virginia.

Make Senator Manchin's legacy be the end of Senator Byrd's legacy to West Virginia.

To explain it in a way that Senator Manchin would claim to understand: it's hard to believe that having these government operations in West Virginia is the most efficient place they could be located. Surely Senator Manchin doesn't want to see tax dollars being unnecessarily spent.

Nut.

Why?

Are you even familiar with Senator Robert Byrd and how, due to him, West Virginia has a large disproportionate number of federal government operations there relative to its population?

Yes. That’s why I would have a mega nut if government facilities left WV.
Let the voters have why they want.

Do you think the voters in the rest of the United States want West Virginia to have a disproportionate number of federal government operations?

Do you know what a mega nut is?

[Benjamin Frank]

If this is possible, President Biden should start to relocate the government operations that Senator Robert Byrd brought to West Virginia.

Make Senator Manchin's legacy be the end of Senator Byrd's legacy to West Virginia.

To explain it in a way that Senator Manchin would claim to understand: it's hard to believe that having these government operations in West Virginia is the most efficient place they could be located. Surely Senator Manchin doesn't want to see tax dollars being unnecessarily spent.

Nut.

Why?

Are you even familiar with Senator Robert Byrd and how, due to him, West Virginia has a large disproportionate number of federal government operations there relative to its population?

Yes. That’s why I would have a mega nut if government facilities left WV.
Let the voters have why they want.

Do you think the voters in the rest of the United States want West Virginia to have a disproportionate number of federal government operations?

Do you know what a mega nut is?

No idea.  I'm 51 years old.

[It’s so Joever]

If this is possible, President Biden should start to relocate the government operations that Senator Robert Byrd brought to West Virginia.

Make Senator Manchin's legacy be the end of Senator Byrd's legacy to West Virginia.

To explain it in a way that Senator Manchin would claim to understand: it's hard to believe that having these government operations in West Virginia is the most efficient place they could be located. Surely Senator Manchin doesn't want to see tax dollars being unnecessarily spent.

Nut.

Why?

Are you even familiar with Senator Robert Byrd and how, due to him, West Virginia has a large disproportionate number of federal government operations there relative to its population?

Yes. That’s why I would have a mega nut if government facilities left WV.
Let the voters have why they want.

Do you think the voters in the rest of the United States want West Virginia to have a disproportionate number of federal government operations?

Do you know what a mega nut is?

No idea.  I'm 51 years old.

*sigh*

A very large ejaculation.

Often used on Atlas to symbolize extreme pleasure at something.

E.g.
“Biden won Georgia?! MEGA NUT!” -A Dem

[Benjamin Frank]

The idea that the Progressive Caucus had any more leverage than they exerted is ridiculous. They're the only reason it took so long to bring this spectacle to its ignominious end. Manchin was never going to vote for anything like the bill that came out of the House, and odds are that Sinema and at least a handful of other Democratic Senators would not have either.

This version of Build Back Better was an unrealistic agenda from the start, which is probably why it's only memorable and consistent feature is its title.

I'm very interested in hearing more about your perspective on this (as opposed to that of the "SALT, lockdowns, mandates, aporophobic rhetoric about 'moocher states', and no other domestic policy to speak of" component of what is unfortunately the current Democratic coalition). Can you expand?

A few things:

- The design of the child care benefit is a disaster. There isn't enough capacity in that sector to keep up with demand in many portions of the country, and credentialing and consumer subsidies would make that much, much worse for the foreseeable future.

The parental leave benefit would have been a boon, as short as it was, but that was looking doomed even if the rest of this had not been. As far as I can tell, the main effect this bill would have on my "access to child care" would be to bump the length of the waiting lists at local programs from months to years.

- The bulk of the so-called "climate change" spending is dedicated to typical green-washed economic development + consumer subsidies for upper-middles.

- States can run their own damned pre-kindergarten programs. I deal with CMS firsthand too much to support federalizing programs if it's not absolutely necessary. Same for free community college. Plenty of poor, Republican states are doing this already. There is no reason to make it a national program, least of all in a monstrosity of a reconciliation bill that includes billions of dollars in handouts for affluent people in the country's wealthiest states.

- Some early drafts of the bill had much more money for building new housing. This does so little it may as well do nothing at all. It does, on the other hand, contain a bunch of poorly designed subsidies which, if scaled upward, promise to make the cost growth that we have seen in health care and education a feature of the US housing market.

- The health care spending is a mess. I'm not sure that I'm up on all of the details of the version that actually passed, but the political-actuarial backflips involved in passing expanded Medicare benefits without permanently funding them infuriated me, and the increased subsidies for marketplace insurance are a national embarrassment that should be treated as a tacit admission that the Affordable Care Act was a failure in terms of reforming private insurance markets.

I could say more, but I'll stop there.

This seems like a bill written to spend as much money as possible without putting any care or deliberation into where it should go and how it should be spent. If you told me that this it had been written by double agents hoping to convince the public that we should not trust federal politicians to spend more of our money, I would be tempted to believe you.

1.On child care subsidies: absolutely agree. However, in the long run, as long as there were no major impediments to expansion in the sector and as long as the subsidies were large enough, it would encourage new investment.  Direct government investment is more assured of producing the desired end result, though with the potential loss of some parental choice, but that would also take a number of years to bring benefit.

The purpose of the bill was to support the expansion of 'child care infrastructure' over 6 years.

2.The climate change spending would have gone to multiple areas. The parts highlighted by the right wing press were those that would have subsidized spending for the upper middle class, but even in that case, things like electric vehicles start out expensive and then get lower cost as production ramps up.  The subsidies would likely have helped EVs through this stage. They also would have helped with increasing the number of EV charging stations and 'greening' the grid.

Your argument against seems to be based on cynicism rather than fact.

3.Your argument against national community college that it should be defeated in this bill due to the 'handouts for affluent people' sounds like nothing more than the perfect being the enemy of the good.

4.You're probably right on the effect of housing subsidies.  The government either directly building low cost/mixed housing, or directly funding non-profits to do that, tends to be much more effective.

You later agree that the need to do this all encompassing bill via reconciliation is due to the filibuster and the need to get all 50 Democrats on board invites all sorts of carve outs and special interest legislation, but, you choose to blame this on the Democrats rather than the Republicans who are forcing the need for the filibuster, and are refusing to break down this legislation into separate components that might pass with some Republican support without the legislation being filibustered (meaning it can pass with 50-59 votes with some Republicans on board and with some Democrats opposed.)

You can blame the Democrats all you like and say 'it's their fault if they couldn't get Manchin and Sinema on side' for either the BBB or for ending the filibuster (I don't know if you said that) but to give the Republicans a free pass, when every one of them blindly filibusters virtually everything thereby forcing this process, makes zero sense.

[Benjamin Frank]

If this is possible, President Biden should start to relocate the government operations that Senator Robert Byrd brought to West Virginia.

Make Senator Manchin's legacy be the end of Senator Byrd's legacy to West Virginia.

To explain it in a way that Senator Manchin would claim to understand: it's hard to believe that having these government operations in West Virginia is the most efficient place they could be located. Surely Senator Manchin doesn't want to see tax dollars being unnecessarily spent.

Nut.

Why?

Are you even familiar with Senator Robert Byrd and how, due to him, West Virginia has a large disproportionate number of federal government operations there relative to its population?

Yes. That’s why I would have a mega nut if government facilities left WV.
Let the voters have why they want.

Do you think the voters in the rest of the United States want West Virginia to have a disproportionate number of federal government operations?

Do you know what a mega nut is?

No idea.  I'm 51 years old.

*sigh*

A very large ejaculation.

Often used on Atlas to symbolize extreme pleasure at something.

E.g.
“Biden won Georgia?! MEGA NUT!” -A Dem

Oh sorry. I'm also personally prudish.

[Anti Democrat Democrat Club]

https://twitter.com/HotlineJosh/status/1479424484381712387


https://twitter.com/HotlineJosh/status/1479906202263953408

A Biden Bro was rude to me, and that is the central thesis as to why I believe poor people don't deserve healthcare.

[7,052,770]

I mean, obviously Klain needs to crawl into Manchin's office and give him a Funkhauser-esque apology, just totally debase himself.

He doesn't actually have to be sorry privately, he just needs to convince Manchin that he is.

[Frodo]

I remember congressional Republicans had similar complaints about Donald Trump when he was still President:

Dems on Manchin: “Like negotiating via Etch A Sketch”

[Benjamin Frank]

I mean, obviously Klain needs to crawl into Manchin's office and give him a Funkhauser-esque apology, just totally debase himself.

He doesn't actually have to be sorry privately, he just needs to convince Manchin that he is.

This only makes a difference if you assume Manchin was negotiating in good faith to begin with.  I think there are a lot of reasons to believe he was only pretending to negotiate while waiting for the BIB and then the Defense Appropriations bills to pass.  Manchin even specifically mentioned in explaining his opposition to BBB how it would take away money that he thought was essential for foreign defense.

I think initially Manchin was genuine in his willingness to support $2.1 trillion in 'hard infrastructure spending' (he initially said he'd support $4 trillion on that, but he subtracted the $1.9 trillion that went into Biden's Covid relief)  but I think he has changed his mind on that due to the rise of inflation.

[Sir Mohamed]

https://twitter.com/HotlineJosh/status/1479424484381712387


https://twitter.com/HotlineJosh/status/1479906202263953408

A Biden Bro was rude to me, and that is the central thesis as to why I believe poor people don't deserve healthcare.

He was never negotiating on honest terms and probably expected someone else to sink the bill or just Biden & Schumer giving up earlier. His donors don't like the bill any other excuse is indeed just a phony excuse.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

https://twitter.com/HotlineJosh/status/1479424484381712387


https://twitter.com/HotlineJosh/status/1479906202263953408

A Biden Bro was rude to me, and that is the central thesis as to why I believe poor people don't deserve healthcare.

He was never negotiating on honest terms and probably expected someone else to sink the bill or just Biden & Schumer giving up earlier. His donors don't like the bill any other excuse is indeed just a phony excuse.

Manchin is not drive by us drive into more debt we have had 2 Stimulus Bills and 1/BIF Infrastructure bill that's why he is opposed to BBB  and it's a child tax credit bill that Parents gets anyways at the end of the yr instead of in the Stimulus monthly they get. 300 monthly instead of 3600 annually so I'd they don't get it monthly they will get their 2022 child tax credit in Feb 2023 you can file Early


We have a 30T dollar deficit you know we spent 8T on War on Terror and 3T on Bush W and Trump tax cuts and Military Spending goes up every yr so and the 2K stimulus we got was Welfare but Child tax credit is annual income that parents suppose to get


We also give money to you there countries, we owe most of our debt to Govt Pensions too that politicians and govt employees get as well

[GeneralMacArthur]

Why are we reacting to a POLITICO headline as though it's not completely made up?

[Frodo]

I'm not sure even stand-alone votes will be enough to break through the Manchin-Sinema blockade:

Sanders calls for stand-alone votes on parts of Democrats' agenda

[emailking]

Well the problem with standalone votes is one of them burns your reconciliation chance. Unless the goal is regular order, but I don't think any of the big ticket items can reach cloture. Some of the smaller stuff sure.

[Pericles]

Well the problem with standalone votes is one of them burns your reconciliation chance. Unless the goal is regular order, but I don't think any of the big ticket items can reach cloture. Some of the smaller stuff sure.

Didn't the parliamentarian say Democrats get at least several more reconciliation votes? They should use them.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

Well the problem with standalone votes is one of them burns your reconciliation chance. Unless the goal is regular order, but I don't think any of the big ticket items can reach cloture. Some of the smaller stuff sure.

Didn't the parliamentarian say Democrats get at least several more reconciliation votes? They should use them.

Manchin said he'd not on board with Biden BBB plan, we don't even need BBB, the child tax credit was an advance the Parents will still get their child tax credit before the Pandemic at the end of the yr, instead of 300, it will be 3600 and you can opt on or out

It's welfare but it's not free money that individuals with no dependent kids got, 2K checks and 300 on extra Unemployment that wasn't their money it was tax payers money that's why it ended and child tax credit didn't

[Benjamin Frank]

https://twitter.com/JacobBastian25/status/1479964706727202818
Shame on those elite/status quo Democrats trying to reduce child poverty.

[Frodo]

I say we call their bluff:

Some House Democrats warn they will tank Biden's big bill if a hefty tax cut for the rich is dropped

[Bootes Void]

Isn't this bill dead or this is still going on

[7,052,770]

Isn't this bill dead or this is still going on

[roxas11]

Isn't this bill dead or this is still going on

well lets put it this way it as dead as Obamacare was in January 2010

But as we all we know Obamacare did end up getting passed a few months later in march 2010. A different version of bbb could very well end up also passing around that same time frame but at this point who knows

[Sir Mohamed]

Isn't this bill dead or this is still going on

Something watered down will pass, I believe. Particularly affecting the child tax credit. I just hope we can still get the public option done this year, although my optimism has clearly vanished over last few weeks.