Biden infrastructure/tax increase megathread

[roxas11]

Good old Joe Manchin is once agian proving that he is always on both sides of every issue...

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Manchin just said reconciliation bill is DOA if it doesn’t include Hyde amendment

K?
That's not a big ask

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Good old Joe Manchin is once agian proving that he is always on both sides of ever issue...

He's still more predictable than Sinema.

[GoTfan]

Manchin's not going to f*** president Biden over in the end. He's going to try to lower the 3.5T some, claim credit for it, and then vote for both bills.

Sinema ... I hope that's ultimately true about her too, but unlike Manchin who seems to be throwing suggestions out there, she's just stonewalling as every other Democrat in both Houses of Congress gets more and more apoplectic.

Because like I said, she's not interested in anything but landing a spot on a few corporate boards and a cushy lobbying job.

[KaiserDave]

https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1443353727147118593

Wake me up when this is over

[Progressive Pessimist]

https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1443353727147118593

Wake me up when this is over

Yeah...between this, the debt ceiling fiasco, and the upcoming elections, this is going to be a long month...

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

What really bothers me here is that he's doing this 'fiscal responsibility' shtick while campaigning against repealing the Trump tax cuts. He has no interest in the budget, he just doesn't like money going to the little people. They haven't earned it the way, say, a pharmaceutical exec that earned her degree without completing any coursework because daddy was governor has.
 
And he and Sinema keep repeating 'good faith' when they have blatantly refused to engage in good faith negotiations with anyone other than Mitch McConnell (they told him they wouldn't kill the filibuster no matter what and they've let him scorch the earth to keep that promise, but they back out of any deal with members of their nominative party the second they get their end).

I'm really at the end of my rope. Kill the BIF (or more properly, vote it down and have Pelosi vote against so she can table it for reconsideration), pass a House end of reconciliation, and dare these two to blow the whole thing up. Assuming they do, full on out of the party, no committees, no staffers, fire Manchin's wife (and maybe give the FBI a call about that Mylan business), no whip, done. Better to have them switch parties and run on 'the Republicans stole the Senate out from under us' than 'Yeah, just joking about all that stuff. My good friend Mr. Manchin found some very principled objections after meeting with lobbiests'.

Losing fighting is better than pretending that you didn't want to win anyway.

[Not Me, Us]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

Thankfully, it'll be the centrist/corporatist wing of the party that gets annihilated.

Maybe it would be for the best. Purge the far-right from the party and rebuild it by and for working people.

[KaiserDave]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

Thankfully, it'll be the centrist/corporatist wing of the party that gets annihilated.

Maybe it would be for the best. Purge the far-right from the party and rebuild it by and for working people.

One could hope

But serious question, as I've been reading your posts closely. What could Biden realistically do to get Manchin and Sinema in line? All this "be like LBJ" talk is really just vague nothingness. They have all the leverage, and if we threaten to take their committees and kick them out of the caucus, I'm not sure if that actually brings them in line, what stops them from just sinking our agenda anyway.

[Anti-Trump Truth Socialite JD Vance Enjoying Juror]

I understand Manchin even if I dislike him. He's a more conservative Democrat who loves the attention these sorts of scenarios provide, because it gives him an opportunity to stand out from the rest of the more liberal Democratic caucus.

Genuinely don't understand what Sinema's deal is.

[R.P. McM]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

Thankfully, it'll be the centrist/corporatist wing of the party that gets annihilated.

Maybe it would be for the best. Purge the far-right from the party and rebuild it by and for working people.

One could hope

But serious question, as I've been reading your posts closely. What could Biden realistically do to get Manchin and Sinema in line? All this "be like LBJ" talk is really just vague nothingness. They have all the leverage, and if we threaten to take their committees and kick them out of the caucus, I'm not sure if that actually brings them in line, what stops them from just sinking our agenda anyway.

To accept the centrist/corporatist narrative, you'd have to swallow the BS that members of Congress don't care if their bills are passed, or if they retain their seats. Suuuuuuuure /s. But, additionally, the Democratic Party could adopt provisions making it nearly impossible for Sinema/Manchin/etc. to lobby any current members of the Democratic caucus. Which would make it very difficult for them to secure lucrative post-Congressional corporate gigs. I call it Dead To Us, and it would mean that, essentially, your lifetime working within the Democratic Party (in the case of Manchin, at least) is basically worthless.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

Thankfully, it'll be the centrist/corporatist wing of the party that gets annihilated.

Maybe it would be for the best. Purge the far-right from the party and rebuild it by and for working people.

One could hope

But serious question, as I've been reading your posts closely. What could Biden realistically do to get Manchin and Sinema in line? All this "be like LBJ" talk is really just vague nothingness. They have all the leverage, and if we threaten to take their committees and kick them out of the caucus, I'm not sure if that actually brings them in line, what stops them from just sinking our agenda anyway.

Well, here’s the thing, what can you give them that will get them to go along?
There are no carrots, the options are to roll over and let two of 48 Senators dictate the party line or go down fighting them. I think the play, I think I’ve said earlier, is to start attacking the people that do influence them. No Labels, a dark money coordination group, has been pretty transparently joined at the hip to them, start removing their associates from DNC, DCCC, and the various leadership pacs, start cancelling meetings across the board with the corporate lobbies (like Exxon and the pharma bros that bankroll Sinema), tell them why, and see if they can bring Sinemanchin back into line.
At the most extreme end, Manchin has a long history of practically open corruption to the point that he has almost certainly violated federal laws both as Governor and Senator, and Sinema’s behavior while not as clear cut definitely raises questions. Tell them that you plan to use that time to start up some ethics hearings and see how they react. That’s the most drastic thing possible and we’re almost certain lead to defection, but what else are you gonna do?

You can’t negotiate with them, not only do they have no intention of good faith engagement, they have no principles or priorities. The nihilistic position means that there can be no back and forth, because they have no goals.


To put it in military terms, if you encounter an entrenched enemy that can’t be attacked directly, cut the supply lines and dig in for a siege.

[Not Me, Us]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

Thankfully, it'll be the centrist/corporatist wing of the party that gets annihilated.

Maybe it would be for the best. Purge the far-right from the party and rebuild it by and for working people.

One could hope

But serious question, as I've been reading your posts closely. What could Biden realistically do to get Manchin and Sinema in line? All this "be like LBJ" talk is really just vague nothingness. They have all the leverage, and if we threaten to take their committees and kick them out of the caucus, I'm not sure if that actually brings them in line, what stops them from just sinking our agenda anyway.

At minimum he should be applying public pressure. Make it abundantly clear to the American people that 2 Senators are holding up progress and call them out for it. He also needs to push publicly for filibuster reform. Most people aren't paying attention. Let the people of AZ know that Sinema is holding up the agenda of the President their state voted for. I still think Manchin can be reasoned with, but Biden really needs to hold Sinema's feet to the fire.

[KaiserDave]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

Thankfully, it'll be the centrist/corporatist wing of the party that gets annihilated.

Maybe it would be for the best. Purge the far-right from the party and rebuild it by and for working people.

One could hope

But serious question, as I've been reading your posts closely. What could Biden realistically do to get Manchin and Sinema in line? All this "be like LBJ" talk is really just vague nothingness. They have all the leverage, and if we threaten to take their committees and kick them out of the caucus, I'm not sure if that actually brings them in line, what stops them from just sinking our agenda anyway.

At minimum he should be applying public pressure. Make it abundantly clear to the American people that 2 Senators are holding up progress and call them out for it. He also needs to push publicly for filibuster reform. Most people aren't paying attention. Let the people of AZ know that Sinema is holding up the agenda of the President their state voted for. I still think Manchin can be reasoned with, but Biden really needs to hold Sinema's feet to the fire.

I would like this, but we don't know what's happening behind the curtain.

[Unbeatable Titan Susan Collins]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

Thankfully, it'll be the centrist/corporatist wing of the party that gets annihilated.

Maybe it would be for the best. Purge the far-right from the party and rebuild it by and for working people.

One could hope

But serious question, as I've been reading your posts closely. What could Biden realistically do to get Manchin and Sinema in line? All this "be like LBJ" talk is really just vague nothingness. They have all the leverage, and if we threaten to take their committees and kick them out of the caucus, I'm not sure if that actually brings them in line, what stops them from just sinking our agenda anyway.

To accept the centrist/corporatist narrative, you'd have to swallow the BS that members of Congress don't care if their bills are passed, or if they retain their seats. Suuuuuuuure /s. But, additionally, the Democratic Party could adopt provisions making it nearly impossible for Sinema/Manchin/etc. to lobby any current members of the Democratic caucus. Which would make it very difficult for them to secure lucrative post-Congressional corporate gigs. I call it Dead To Us, and it would mean that, essentially, your lifetime working within the Democratic Party (in the case of Manchin, at least) is basically worthless.

1. The Democrats can't really threaten Manchin electorally. AOC/Pelosi/Biden attacking him is basically a campaign ad for him given his state. I think given Trump's margin and his own and least 33% of his voters voted for Trump. Sinema is of course another story.

2. I don't think your "Dead to us" is workable at all. Even if the Dems could pass a rule in there caucus (which I highly doubt) how would they ever enforce it? Tap the phones of their members? Ban Democrats from  even talking to them? And what happens to a Dem that breaks these rules? How do you prove a Democrat was lobbied?  The only Democrats who would ever follow that would never be the ones Manchin or Sinema could lobby. Do you think a lobbing firm hires Manchin expecting him to successfully lobby AOC?

[7,052,770]

But serious question, as I've been reading your posts closely. What could Biden realistically do to get Manchin and Sinema in line? All this "be like LBJ" talk is really just vague nothingness. They have all the leverage, and if we threaten to take their committees and kick them out of the caucus, I'm not sure if that actually brings them in line, what stops them from just sinking our agenda anyway.

For Manchin, we just have to cut a few things from the budget that we care about less than the rest, and get it below $3T into the 2s somewhere. That way he gets placated.

For Sinema -- I am at a complete loss. No idea what she's after, since she apparently won't even tell others Democrats anything beyond "No." I guess we just have to hope that someone on her Yes-Man staff tells her how bad her popularity is tanking and that she cares.

[pppolitics]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

That's like a suicide bomber demanding a ransom for not blowing up everyone.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

That's like a suicide bomber demanding a ransom for not blowing up everyone.

You've got your analogies backward. The BIF was created at the insistence of Sinema and Manchin, to give them a big showy win for bipartisanship in exchange for starting work on the actual BBB through reconciliation,with the understanding that both would pass at the same time.
Now they are demanding that they won't do anything until their pay-off is complete.

It's an electoral disaster if either the BIF passes and then Sinema walks away or if they get nothing. At least nothing leaves us with a villain to rally against.

[pppolitics]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

Thankfully, it'll be the centrist/corporatist wing of the party that gets annihilated.

Democrats lose the majority in both houses, then in 2024, Biden gets thrown out of office and replaced by Trump.

Great job destroying the party.

Republicans didn't even have to lift a finger.

[pppolitics]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

That's like a suicide bomber demanding a ransom for not blowing up everyone.

You've got your analogies backward. The BIF was created at the insistence of Sinema and Manchin, to give them a big showy win for bipartisanship in exchange for starting work on the actual BBB through reconciliation,with the understanding that both would pass at the same time.
Now they are demanding that they won't do anything until their pay-off is complete.

Pass the infrastructure bill right now.

There is literally no reason to hold it back.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

Thankfully, it'll be the centrist/corporatist wing of the party that gets annihilated.

Democrats lose the majority in both houses, then in 2024, Biden gets thrown out of office and replaced by Trump.

Great job destroying the party.

Republicans didn't even have to lift a finger.

Why do you keep blaming the left when this situation is all Manchin and Sinema’s fault?

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

That's like a suicide bomber demanding a ransom for not blowing up everyone.

You've got your analogies backward. The BIF was created at the insistence of Sinema and Manchin, to give them a big showy win for bipartisanship in exchange for starting work on the actual BBB through reconciliation,with the understanding that both would pass at the same time.
Now they are demanding that they won't do anything until their pay-off is complete.

Pass the infrastructure bill right now.

There is literally no reason to hold it back.

If you pass 20% of the infrastructure bill now, the other 80% will be killed.

I don't see how you are not getting that.

[pppolitics]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

That's like a suicide bomber demanding a ransom for not blowing up everyone.

You've got your analogies backward. The BIF was created at the insistence of Sinema and Manchin, to give them a big showy win for bipartisanship in exchange for starting work on the actual BBB through reconciliation,with the understanding that both would pass at the same time.
Now they are demanding that they won't do anything until their pay-off is complete.

Pass the infrastructure bill right now.

There is literally no reason to hold it back.

If you pass 20% of the infrastructure bill now, the other 80% will be killed.

I don't see how you are not getting that.

I don't even know what that means.

Either the infrastructure bill gets passed or it doesn't.

It's that simple.

[pppolitics]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

Thankfully, it'll be the centrist/corporatist wing of the party that gets annihilated.

Democrats lose the majority in both houses, then in 2024, Biden gets thrown out of office and replaced by Trump.

Great job destroying the party.

Republicans didn't even have to lift a finger.

Why do you keep blaming the left when this situation is all Manchin and Sinema’s fault?

Manchin is from West Virginia.

Like it or not, he's the only one that wins there.

I am not sure what's up with Sinema.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Progressives can't cave. If the coporatists won't play ball, then kill their precious "bipartisan" bill. 2022 is going to be a blood bath, and if Democrats can't pass this popular, important reconciliation bill, then they deserve every bit of what's coming.

That's like a suicide bomber demanding a ransom for not blowing up everyone.

You've got your analogies backward. The BIF was created at the insistence of Sinema and Manchin, to give them a big showy win for bipartisanship in exchange for starting work on the actual BBB through reconciliation,with the understanding that both would pass at the same time.
Now they are demanding that they won't do anything until their pay-off is complete.

Pass the infrastructure bill right now.

There is literally no reason to hold it back.

If you pass 20% of the infrastructure bill now, the other 80% will be killed.

I don't see how you are not getting that.

I don't even know what that means.

Either the infrastructure bill gets passed or it doesn't.

It's that simple.

The ‘infrastructure’ bill is 20ish% of the initial infrastructure package that was lopped off to create a bipartisan package that Sinema (in particular) and Manchin could take credit for. It passed the Senate, despite some of the most popular and important pieces being left out at Republican insistence and the vast majority of Senate Dems and all Reps beings cut out of the negotiation, on the guarantee that it would be coupled with a reconciliation package.
If you pass that bill now, the reconciliation package doesn’t happen.