Biden infrastructure/tax increase megathread

[President Johnson]

I'm strongly supportive of the Progressive Caucus' stance here despite the fact I'm closer to the New Democrats caucus. You can argue about some details and smaller items, but every Democrat should vote like one. These so called commonsense moderates should actually do what's common sense and not behave like a Republican.

The second bill needs to be passed in addition to the bipartisan one because it makes a lot of sense to help people and grow the US economy long term. The measures are popular and would finally give the Democrats and Biden a big legislative win in a congress that hasn't gotten things done for many years.

[free my dawg]

This is why we don't count our chickens

Indeed, which is why you probably shouldn't be taking a victory lap now, because the most likely outcomes are still that the BIF passes on its own or nothing passes. It's a real demonstration of the Horseshoe Theory when the left is perfectly happy to act as a mirror image of the hated Freedom Caucus, make perfect an enemy of the good, and derail their party's agenda as a result.

Horseshoe theory isn't real. Fishhook theory, the idea that centrists will ally with the right to defend corporate interests at the expense of everything else, is.

Case in point:

[compucomp]

This is why we don't count our chickens

Indeed, which is why you probably shouldn't be taking a victory lap now, because the most likely outcomes are still that the BIF passes on its own or nothing passes. It's a real demonstration of the Horseshoe Theory when the left is perfectly happy to act as a mirror image of the hated Freedom Caucus, make perfect an enemy of the good, and derail their party's agenda as a result.

You have this completely backwards.

Moderates are the ones threatening to detail the agenda.

So said the Freedom Caucus who were sure that they were going to repeal Obamacare and that those RINOs wanted to keep parts of it around and were derailing their agenda. If they weren't so rigid on that the Republicans may have actually come up with a replacement that could have passed Congress, like they came up with a tax bill, and some laws that even got Democratic votes like the Dodd-Frank rollback and the First Step Act.

[Matty]

Bernie Sanders just tweeted that he is urging dems to vote no on thurs

[KaiserDave]

Bernie Sanders just tweeted that he is urging dems to vote no on thurs

Total nonsense, he tweeted that no BIF should be passed without reconciliation. He didn't urge a no vote. He didn't even use the word vote.

[Comrade Funk]

This is why we don't count our chickens

Indeed, which is why you probably shouldn't be taking a victory lap now, because the most likely outcomes are still that the BIF passes on its own or nothing passes. It's a real demonstration of the Horseshoe Theory when the left is perfectly happy to act as a mirror image of the hated Freedom Caucus, make perfect an enemy of the good, and derail their party's agenda as a result.

You have this completely backwards.

Moderates are the ones threatening to detail the agenda.

So said the Freedom Caucus who were sure that they were going to repeal Obamacare and that those RINOs wanted to keep parts of it around and were derailing their agenda. If they weren't so rigid on that the Republicans may have actually come up with a replacement that could have passed Congress, like they came up with a tax bill, and some laws that even got Democratic votes like the Dodd-Frank rollback and the First Step Act.

One thing the "moderates" and the Freedom Caucus have in common is the absolute revulsion for expanding healthcare.

But hey man, at least we get this completely worthless bipartisan POS bill.

[free my dawg]

This is why we don't count our chickens

Indeed, which is why you probably shouldn't be taking a victory lap now, because the most likely outcomes are still that the BIF passes on its own or nothing passes. It's a real demonstration of the Horseshoe Theory when the left is perfectly happy to act as a mirror image of the hated Freedom Caucus, make perfect an enemy of the good, and derail their party's agenda as a result.

You have this completely backwards.

Moderates are the ones threatening to detail the agenda.

So said the Freedom Caucus who were sure that they were going to repeal Obamacare and that those RINOs wanted to keep parts of it around and were derailing their agenda. If they weren't so rigid on that the Republicans may have actually come up with a replacement that could have passed Congress, like they came up with a tax bill, and some laws that even got Democratic votes like the Dodd-Frank rollback and the First Step Act.

One thing the "moderates" and the Freedom Caucus have in common is the absolute revulsion for expanding healthcare.

But hey man, at least we get this completely worthless bipartisan POS bill.

Don't mind compucomp. He would rather have a Republican trifecta than a progressive majority.

[Pericles]

This looks like it'll be a long process, but I think since the bills poll well and Democrats are coming up empty on other stuff, they will ultimately pass something.

[compucomp]

Bernie Sanders just tweeted that he is urging dems to vote no on thurs

Total nonsense, he tweeted that no BIF should be passed without reconciliation. He didn't urge a no vote. He didn't even use the word vote.

Yes he did:

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1442929430117044224

[KaiserDave]

Bernie Sanders just tweeted that he is urging dems to vote no on thurs

Total nonsense, he tweeted that no BIF should be passed without reconciliation. He didn't urge a no vote. He didn't even use the word vote.

Yes he did:

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1442929430117044224

I stand corrected I was looking at his campaign account

I mean he’s right so I’m not complaining

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

https://morningconsult.com/2021/09/27/infrastructure-bill-support-polling/

Much of the haggling in recent weeks has centered around the bill’s cost, with some Republicans and moderate Democrats arguing the price is too high, while progressives have said the funding doesn’t go far enough. Voters are split between whether the $1 trillion figure is too much or the right amount, at 42 percent and 43 percent, respectively. Fourteen percent said it’s too little to spend on infrastructure.

$1T Bill is quite popular. Only 14% thinks, it's too little. 43% it's right amount and 42% think, it's too much. Even among Dems, there are as many that think it's too much, as there are those who think it's too little (about 20% each).

Also as time passes, more think, it's too much, and fewer, that it's too little.

The share who think the $1 trillion price tag is too high has risen throughout the debates about infrastructure spending. As of early August, 36 percent said $1 trillion would be too much, while 19 percent said it would be too little and 46 percent said it is the right amount.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Bernie Sanders just tweeted that he is urging dems to vote no on thurs

Total nonsense, he tweeted that no BIF should be passed without reconciliation. He didn't urge a no vote. He didn't even use the word vote.

Yes he did:

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1442929430117044224

I stand corrected I was looking at his campaign account

I mean he’s right so I’m not complaining

Yeah, this is exactly what progressives should be doing. Seems like they agree with my earlier assessment that passing the bipartisan bill would doom the reconciliation bill, and are working to make sure that doesn't happen. That's a relief.

[Not Me, Us]

Progressives are doing the right thing. If we let this bill pass without reconciliation, there will be no reconciliation bill. We can't let right-wing DINOs destroy the President's agenda.

[wbrocks67]

Progressives are doing the right thing. If we let this bill pass without reconciliation, there will be no reconciliation bill. We can't let right-wing DINOs destroy the President's agenda.

Both sides seem intent on destroying the agenda at this point.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Progressives are doing the right thing. If we let this bill pass without reconciliation, there will be no reconciliation bill. We can't let right-wing DINOs destroy the President's agenda.

Both sides seem intent on destroying the agenda at this point.

No. Progressives want Bipartisan + Reconciliation, which is the whole agenda. Corporate Dems want to tank Reconciliation, which represents like 80% of the agenda.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

The Debt Ceiling is probably gonna have to go to Reconciliation temp Default and end of Oct it's raised that's the worst case scenario or get rid of Filibuster they can't miss payments they will have to give it back in retro pay military, child tax credits, etc

D's dared the Rs and they knew for ten weeks D's that Rs were gonna Filibuster the Debt Ceiling

What did Biden and his staff come on Morning Joe,  they say Rs aren't that crazy yes they are

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

So let’s just remember where we are, because I think it’s helpful and certain posters are forgetting or being dishonest about it.

Biden rolled out an omnibus infrastructure package. Republicans being Republicans, immediately rallied to oppose it out reflex. The argument they came up with is ‘infrastructure is only road and bridges’, one of the all time dumbest takes I’ve seen in a sea of them. Meanwhile, Manchin and Sinema, being Manchin and Sinema, wanted to publicly be obstacles to President Biden. What they came up with they don’t think reconciliation should be used and wanted a bill through regular order. That their instance on keeping archaic procedures that have made regular order impossible is the whole reason that we need giant omnibus reconciliation packages was quietly sidestepped. What they did was went to the GOP to negotiate a package from the starting point of the GOP’s nonsensical stand that only roads count, hacking off the other 75-80% of the program. The rest of the caucus agreed to let them go forward on their compromise bill in exchange for beginning the reconciliation process, with both bills, comprising a single package, being slated for a house vote at the same time.

My main point here is that it’s not reconciliation and infrastructure, it’s a single package split out into two bills at the demand of two Senators, and calling the BIF ‘the infrastructure bill’ give an incorrect impression.
The other thing that is important to note is the sequence of events, because it’s of what comes next.

Immediately after the Sinema portion passed the Senate, Manchin and Sinema immediately balked at bringing up a reconciliation bill and began demanding that the smaller end of the package be passed before they would do anything. I’m not exaggerating when I say immediately here, literally the same day that the agreement was reached between them and the 48 Senate Dems, they began saying either that their bill wasn’t linked and insisting that it be decoupled from reconciliation. 9 (of 220) house reps then forced Pelosi to schedule a vote on the Sinema bill by threatening to kill reconciliation before it started. These same 9 (down to about four now as best I can tell) and a larger group of house Dems are refusing to approve the BIB until a reconciliation package is brought forward.

Pelosi pushed the vote back to Thursday and that’s where they are at. This isn’t about the merits of either bill, we are watching a power play from 11 congressmen attempting to drive the entire agenda.

[Frodo]

We'll see how it breaks down, but as far as the overall compromise amount goes, I can live with a $2-to-2.5 trillion reconciliation package:

Democrats scramble to scale back $3.5 trillion tax-and-spending bill

Democrats across the Capitol privately confess they are likely to end up with a package in the low-to-mid $2 trillion range. The lower price tag could ease the burden on lawmakers to devise ways to pay for the spending, since they may be able to scale back or remove some of their potential tax increases — another political flash point within the party. But it also may require uncomfortable cuts, whether it is by eliminating entire programs, lessening how long they provide aid, or imposing new requirements on who can participate.

[compucomp]

So let’s just remember where we are, because I think it’s helpful and certain posters are forgetting or being dishonest about it.

Biden rolled out an omnibus infrastructure package. Republicans being Republicans, immediately rallied to oppose it out reflex. The argument they came up with is ‘infrastructure is only road and bridges’, one of the all time dumbest takes I’ve seen in a sea of them. Meanwhile, Manchin and Sinema, being Manchin and Sinema, wanted to publicly be obstacles to President Biden. What they came up with they don’t think reconciliation should be used and wanted a bill through regular order. That their instance on keeping archaic procedures that have made regular order impossible is the whole reason that we need giant omnibus reconciliation packages was quietly sidestepped. What they did was went to the GOP to negotiate a package from the starting point of the GOP’s nonsensical stand that only roads count, hacking off the other 75-80% of the program. The rest of the caucus agreed to let them go forward on their compromise bill in exchange for beginning the reconciliation process, with both bills, comprising a single package, being slated for a house vote at the same time.

My main point here is that it’s not reconciliation and infrastructure, it’s a single package split out into two bills at the demand of two Senators, and calling the BIF ‘the infrastructure bill’ give an incorrect impression.
The other thing that is important to note is the sequence of events, because it’s of what comes next.

Immediately after the Sinema portion passed the Senate, Manchin and Sinema immediately balked at bringing up a reconciliation bill and began demanding that the smaller end of the package be passed before they would do anything. I’m not exaggerating when I say immediately here, literally the same day that the agreement was reached between them and the 48 Senate Dems, they began saying either that their bill wasn’t linked and insisting that it be decoupled from reconciliation. 9 (of 220) house reps then forced Pelosi to schedule a vote on the Sinema bill by threatening to kill reconciliation before it started. These same 9 (down to about four now as best I can tell) and a larger group of house Dems are refusing to approve the BIB until a reconciliation package is brought forward.

Pelosi pushed the vote back to Thursday and that’s where they are at. This isn’t about the merits of either bill, we are watching a power play from 11 congressmen attempting to drive the entire agenda.

This post ignores a simple reality; the reconciliation bill in its current form cannot pass Congress. The votes aren't there. This would still be true even if it were combined with the infrastructure bill. It's actually a work of genius to split the two bills, so that there is a chance that something got done even in the likely event that the reconciliation negotiations collapse.

Let's put it this way, if Manchin switches parties tomorrow, then the reconciliation vanishes, and what will Democrats do? They'll vote for BIF or they'll get nothing. Progressives can acknowledge this reality or they'll get nothing in the end, just like the Freedom Caucus got nothing in their quest to repeal Obamacare.

[KaiserDave]

I stopped reading after "if Manchin switches parties."

[roxas11]

Progressives are doing the right thing. If we let this bill pass without reconciliation, there will be no reconciliation bill. We can't let right-wing DINOs destroy the President's agenda.

Both sides seem intent on destroying the agenda at this point.

say what you will about the progressives, but truth is if the moderate Dems had simply went along with their plan than both sides would have actually gotten what they wanted in the end

On the other hand the moderate Dems plan never made any sense at all to me because they knew full well that they never had the votes to pass a stand alone bill without progressives support yet they still decided to engage in this pointless fight anyway. The result could end up being that nobody gets anything and Biden agenda is as good as dead

[CookieDamage]

$2 to 2.5T is acceptable.

Also why is Pelosi trying to pass the bipartisan bill?? Once that happens the reconciliation bill will possibly be toast.

[Xing]

Let's not forget that the goal of reconciliation isn't about getting AOC's agenda passed, nor Sanders's, nor Warren's... it's about getting Biden's agenda passed. This is the only way that Biden will be more than a lame duck president going forward. If we've already moved the goalposts to the point that Biden, who was already a compromise for many of us on the left, is "too extreme", and that joining the Party of Trump to block his agenda is now what constitutes being "moderate", or that we're really going to play "both sides " when progressives are the ones working to get Biden's agenda passed against a party that will block it at all costs, then we're lost.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

I stopped reading after "if Manchin switches parties."

This is a Medicare Expansion bill not a Stimulus bill, it must be reformed but the Medical coverage doesn't take effect now, it's 2028 we are already 29T in Debt

I can wait for this bill it's not needed right now anyways

Manchin won't switch parties he is running for reelection as a D.
We do need climate change and infrastructure and immigration reform though

If Seniors need extra Dental, they can buy Market rate insurance

If you are under income you have Medicaid if you are over it's PPO, already everyone has insurance now due to Covid

[free my dawg]

So let’s just remember where we are, because I think it’s helpful and certain posters are forgetting or being dishonest about it.

Biden rolled out an omnibus infrastructure package. Republicans being Republicans, immediately rallied to oppose it out reflex. The argument they came up with is ‘infrastructure is only road and bridges’, one of the all time dumbest takes I’ve seen in a sea of them. Meanwhile, Manchin and Sinema, being Manchin and Sinema, wanted to publicly be obstacles to President Biden. What they came up with they don’t think reconciliation should be used and wanted a bill through regular order. That their instance on keeping archaic procedures that have made regular order impossible is the whole reason that we need giant omnibus reconciliation packages was quietly sidestepped. What they did was went to the GOP to negotiate a package from the starting point of the GOP’s nonsensical stand that only roads count, hacking off the other 75-80% of the program. The rest of the caucus agreed to let them go forward on their compromise bill in exchange for beginning the reconciliation process, with both bills, comprising a single package, being slated for a house vote at the same time.

My main point here is that it’s not reconciliation and infrastructure, it’s a single package split out into two bills at the demand of two Senators, and calling the BIF ‘the infrastructure bill’ give an incorrect impression.
The other thing that is important to note is the sequence of events, because it’s of what comes next.

Immediately after the Sinema portion passed the Senate, Manchin and Sinema immediately balked at bringing up a reconciliation bill and began demanding that the smaller end of the package be passed before they would do anything. I’m not exaggerating when I say immediately here, literally the same day that the agreement was reached between them and the 48 Senate Dems, they began saying either that their bill wasn’t linked and insisting that it be decoupled from reconciliation. 9 (of 220) house reps then forced Pelosi to schedule a vote on the Sinema bill by threatening to kill reconciliation before it started. These same 9 (down to about four now as best I can tell) and a larger group of house Dems are refusing to approve the BIB until a reconciliation package is brought forward.

Pelosi pushed the vote back to Thursday and that’s where they are at. This isn’t about the merits of either bill, we are watching a power play from 11 congressmen attempting to drive the entire agenda.

This post ignores a simple reality; the reconciliation bill in its current form cannot pass Congress. The votes aren't there. This would still be true even if it were combined with the infrastructure bill. It's actually a work of genius to split the two bills, so that there is a chance that something got done even in the likely event that the reconciliation negotiations collapse.

Let's put it this way, if Manchin switches parties tomorrow, then the reconciliation vanishes, and what will Democrats do? They'll vote for BIF or they'll get nothing. Progressives can acknowledge this reality or they'll get nothing in the end, just like the Freedom Caucus got nothing in their quest to repeal Obamacare.

Silence, Republican!