South African city of Port Elizabeth becomes Gqeberha

[Bootes Void]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-56182349

Many South Africans are learning how to pronounce Gqeberha, the new name for the city of Port Elizabeth.

It is the Xhosa name for the Baakens River, which flows through the city.

Xhosa is one of South Africa's 11 official languages and one of the few in the world that has a "click" sound, which can be difficult for non-Xhosa speakers to master.

One tweeter reflected the views of many: "My Xhosa people. Teach us. How do you pronounce Gqeberha?"

Some have been giving each other a little help. One tweeter broke it down phonetically, saying the "Gqe" was a tongue click, "bear" for "be" and adding a guttural "g" before the ha: "Click bear gha."

https://twitter.com/Dispatch_DD/status/1364274594677469188?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7...

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Having a name almost no one can pronounce is sure to do wonders for the local economy. I can understand the desire to rename the city, but the chosen replacement is idiotic. Very few languages involve clicks.

[Estrella]

Having a name almost no one can pronounce is sure to do wonders for the local economy. I can understand the desire to rename the city, but the chosen replacement is idiotic. Very few languages involve clicks.

I'm sure the 35% of South Africans who speak Xhosa as a first or second language will be pleased to know that you consider them "almost no-one".

In any case, people who don't speak the language will find a way around it. English (it applies to every language but it seems that especially English) speakers already have great experience with butchering names that sound weird to them. They could also, y'know, try to approximate the correct pronunciation, but... haha.

[Amanda Huggenkiss]

Having a name almost no one can pronounce is sure to do wonders for the local economy. I can understand the desire to rename the city, but the chosen replacement is idiotic. Very few languages involve clicks.

I'm sure the 35% of South Africans who speak Xhosa as a first or second language will be pleased to know that you consider them "almost no-one".

In any case, people who don't speak the language will find a way around it. English (it applies to every language but it seems that especially English) speakers already have great experience with butchering names that sound weird to them. They could also, y'know, try to approximate the correct pronunciation, but... haha.

Especially since English speakers torture millions of English learners with that archaic th sound.

Also, it is not uncommon that there are different names for the same place in different languages. Munich - München, Cologne - Köln, Venice - Venezia, and all those exonyms you can think of.

It is fully within the right of the self-determined people of any place to do this if they wish.

[cp]

Having a name almost no one can pronounce is sure to do wonders for the local economy. I can understand the desire to rename the city, but the chosen replacement is idiotic. Very few languages involve clicks.

I'm sure the 35% of South Africans who speak Xhosa as a first or second language will be pleased to know that you consider them "almost no-one".

In any case, people who don't speak the language will find a way around it. English (it applies to every language but it seems that especially English) speakers already have great experience with butchering names that sound weird to them. They could also, y'know, try to approximate the correct pronunciation, but... haha.

Especially since English speakers torture millions of English learners with that archaic th sound.

Also, it is not uncommon that there are different names for the same place in different languages. Munich - München, Cologne - Köln, Venice - Venezia, and all those exonyms you can think of.

It is fully within the right of the self-determined people of any place to do this if they wish.

I heard somewhere it was the 'r' sound (as in 'rain' or 'spur') that gave people the most trouble. Even a lot of native English speakers in England have trouble with that one.

[Storebought]

Having a name almost no one can pronounce is sure to do wonders for the local economy. I can understand the desire to rename the city, but the chosen replacement is idiotic. Very few languages involve clicks.

I'm sure the 35% of South Africans who speak Xhosa as a first or second language will be pleased to know that you consider them "almost no-one".

In any case, people who don't speak the language will find a way around it. English (it applies to every language but it seems that especially English) speakers already have great experience with butchering names that sound weird to them. They could also, y'know, try to approximate the correct pronunciation, but... haha.

Especially since English speakers torture millions of English learners with that archaic th sound.

Also, it is not uncommon that there are different names for the same place in different languages. Munich - München, Cologne - Köln, Venice - Venezia, and all those exonyms you can think of.

It is fully within the right of the self-determined people of any place to do this if they wish.

Spanish and Greek have both /th/ sounds.

[Amanda Huggenkiss]

Having a name almost no one can pronounce is sure to do wonders for the local economy. I can understand the desire to rename the city, but the chosen replacement is idiotic. Very few languages involve clicks.

I'm sure the 35% of South Africans who speak Xhosa as a first or second language will be pleased to know that you consider them "almost no-one".

In any case, people who don't speak the language will find a way around it. English (it applies to every language but it seems that especially English) speakers already have great experience with butchering names that sound weird to them. They could also, y'know, try to approximate the correct pronunciation, but... haha.

Especially since English speakers torture millions of English learners with that archaic th sound.

Also, it is not uncommon that there are different names for the same place in different languages. Munich - München, Cologne - Köln, Venice - Venezia, and all those exonyms you can think of.

It is fully within the right of the self-determined people of any place to do this if they wish.

Spanish and Greek have both /th/ sounds.

Yes, I know. Still, most languages don't.

[parochial boy]

Thing is, the names used in local administration in South African are already pretty complicated as it is. For a while now, the municipality of Port Elizabeth has been called the "Nelson Mandela Bay metropolitan municipality", in which there is a particular place called "Port Elizabeth". In reality, neither the named place "Port Elizabeth" not the municipality as a whole really correspond to what people consider the city of PE to be. For instance, most people wouldn't really say the former township of New Brighton was a separate city to PE, but it isn't technically "in" the city even if it is part of the municipality.

Or thinking of an example I know better, Durban city is one part of the municipality called eThekwini, but only about 15% of the municipality's population lives in the place called "Durban". The rest of the municipality includes places like Pinetown (richt white suburb) or Chatsworth (former Indian township), which are generally considered part of Durban city even if not in the named area, but also includes places like Umhlanga that are usually seen as being separate towns. So in practice, when people say Durban, they mean (almost) everything in the municipality, and not the offical place called "Durban". eThekwini is barely used ever, even though it is the "official" name -  I even remember asking one of the Zulu guys at work why I kept on seeing the word and he just kind of gave an embarrassed shrug and went "oh it's the the Zulu word for Durban".

Then you have a whole load of these renamings going on - like Pretoria becoming Tshwane (before being partially changed back after the outcry), or Nelspruit being renamed Mbombela. You'd struggle to find anyone using the words Mbombela or Tshwane outside of an administrative document in reality.

Anyway, point being, this might matter if the names South Africa used in local administration had anything more than a passing resemblence to what the places are actually called. But they don't, so this is just symbol politics so that people can argue on twitter about how much the ANC hates white people or whatever.

Fwiw, the actual most widely spoken first language in what it to be called Gqeberha is actually Afrikaans. Not because of white people, but because the city has always had a large majority-Afrikaans speaking coloured population. Whether anyone asked them how they feel about the issue is a different question, as the online culture warriors usually seem to be quite happy to forget they even exist.

[Bilardista]

I'm not familiar with the process of name change in south africa, does it involve referendums or any sort of public consultation? Cause it seems like a unilateral move from the government that the locals (73% of whom have either afrikaans or anglish as their first language) might not be on board with. Or maybe they are, i don't know. I'm sure many of them don't mind, but many others will probably keep using the old name.

[CumbrianLefty]

People who can't pronounce the "new" name will surely still call it Port Elizabeth anyway?

[P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong]

Obscure phonology is one of the many things that makes the world a richer and more beautiful place to live in. Really sad to see people write off all click consonant users as "nobodies" especially when they use the impossible English R sound on a daily basis. Glass houses.

[Fight for Trump]

I'm not familiar with the process of name change in south africa, does it involve referendums or any sort of public consultation? Cause it seems like a unilateral move from the government that the locals (73% of whom have either afrikaans or anglish as their first language) might not be on board with. Or maybe they are, i don't know. I'm sure many of them don't mind, but many others will probably keep using the old name.

The poor (i.e. blacks) live in the surrounding areas outside the city proper, and a thin majority of the metro area speaks Xhosa as their mother tongue. The ANC don't really give a sh**t about what the whites or Coloureds think.

[Roronoa D. Law]

I'm not familiar with the process of name change in south africa, does it involve referendums or any sort of public consultation? Cause it seems like a unilateral move from the government that the locals (73% of whom have either afrikaans or anglish as their first language) might not be on board with. Or maybe they are, i don't know. I'm sure many of them don't mind, but many others will probably keep using the old name.

The poor (i.e. blacks) live in the surrounding areas outside the city proper, and a thin majority of the metro area speaks Xhosa as their mother tongue. The ANC don't really give a sh**t about what the whites or Coloureds think.

Oh boo hoo, the government renames a city with the language of the people who lived there for over a millennium.

[Fight for Trump]

I'm not familiar with the process of name change in south africa, does it involve referendums or any sort of public consultation? Cause it seems like a unilateral move from the government that the locals (73% of whom have either afrikaans or anglish as their first language) might not be on board with. Or maybe they are, i don't know. I'm sure many of them don't mind, but many others will probably keep using the old name.

The poor (i.e. blacks) live in the surrounding areas outside the city proper, and a thin majority of the metro area speaks Xhosa as their mother tongue. The ANC don't really give a sh**t about what the whites or Coloureds think.

Oh boo hoo, the government renames a city with the language of the people who lived there for over a millennium.

They renamed a city that wouldn't exist if it weren't founded by Britain to a Xhosa name with no historical relevance.

It's a typical problem with African countries. The ruling parties' legitimacy is entirely based on anti-colonial struggle, and if the population stopped being victims, they might start caring more about the fact they're being robbed

EDIT: It's like why I oppose renaming Columbus, OH. For starters, the residents of the city don't want to change the name, and more importantly, it does absolutely nothing and takes time and resources away from things the government should actually be doing. That doesn't mean I oppose indigenous names. Ohio itself has an Iroquois name.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Having a name almost no one can pronounce is sure to do wonders for the local economy. I can understand the desire to rename the city, but the chosen replacement is idiotic. Very few languages involve clicks.

I'm sure the 35% of South Africans who speak Xhosa as a first or second language will be pleased to know that you consider them "almost no-one".

In any case, people who don't speak the language will find a way around it. English (it applies to every language but it seems that especially English) speakers already have great experience with butchering names that sound weird to them. They could also, y'know, try to approximate the correct pronunciation, but... haha.

Especially since English speakers torture millions of English learners with that archaic th sound.

Also, it is not uncommon that there are different names for the same place in different languages. Munich - München, Cologne - Köln, Venice - Venezia, and all those exonyms you can think of.

It is fully within the right of the self-determined people of any place to do this if they wish.

Spanish and Greek have both /th/ sounds.

Yes, I know. Still, most languages don't.

Greek actually developed /θ/ in Late Antiquity. In Classical and Koine Greek the theta was pronounced /tʰ/.

Anyway, I'm not finding it difficult to just butcher it and say /gə'bɛrhə/ (or similar) and I'm sure neither will most non-Xhosa speakers, assuming they don't just keep calling it Port Elizabeth informally.

[certified hummus supporter 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

I'm not familiar with the process of name change in south africa, does it involve referendums or any sort of public consultation? Cause it seems like a unilateral move from the government that the locals (73% of whom have either afrikaans or anglish as their first language) might not be on board with. Or maybe they are, i don't know. I'm sure many of them don't mind, but many others will probably keep using the old name.

The poor (i.e. blacks) live in the surrounding areas outside the city proper, and a thin majority of the metro area speaks Xhosa as their mother tongue. The ANC don't really give a sh**t about what the whites or Coloureds think.

Oh boo hoo, the government renames a city with the language of the people who lived there for over a millennium.

They renamed a city that wouldn't exist if it weren't founded by Britain to a Xhosa name with no historical relevance.

It's a typical problem with African countries. The ruling parties' legitimacy is entirely based on anti-colonial struggle, and if the population stopped being victims, they might start caring more about the fact they're being robbed

EDIT: It's like why I oppose renaming Columbus, OH. For starters, the residents of the city don't want to change the name, and more importantly, it does absolutely nothing and takes time and resources away from things the government should actually be doing. That doesn't mean I oppose indigenous names. Ohio itself has an Iroquois name.

What's wrong with renaming Columbus to Flavortown?

[Woody]

This city was founded by English people, this name change makes no sense.

[vitoNova]

All cities and states in the US should be renamed based on indigenous Native names.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Parochial Boy's post is the one to read in this thread. I'll highlight two things in particular. First:

Anyway, point being, this might matter if the names South Africa used in local administration had anything more than a passing resemblence to what the places are actually called. But they don't, so this is just symbol politics so that people can argue on twitter about how much the ANC hates white people or whatever.

Party politics in South Africa is to a significant extent kabuki, designed to distract from the messy reality of a fundamentally shabby and disappointing political settlement that is, for all its undeniable shabbiness, essential to the maintenance of social order and political stability in a very fractured, damaged society with much potential for racial, ethnic and communal strife.

And secondly:

Fwiw, the actual most widely spoken first language in what it to be called Gqeberha is actually Afrikaans. Not because of white people, but because the city has always had a large majority-Afrikaans speaking coloured population. Whether anyone asked them how they feel about the issue is a different question, as the online culture warriors usuall seem to be quite happy to forget they even exist.

To which there is no point adding anything.

[Bootes Void]

All cities and states in the US should be renamed based on indigenous Native names.

Most states and provinces in US and Canada already kind of already  are along with alot of cities. But the city should be named by the founders of the land

[Roronoa D. Law]

Soon to be 100 years since the Geneva Conventions and people on here still supporting colonialism. Must be nice to be white.

[Woody]

Soon to be 100 years since the Geneva Conventions and people on here still supporting colonialism. Must be nice to be white.

This port was founded by English people, this area was unihabited when the settlers came here. Without them this city wouldn't exist and would be today be a wasteland most likely.

[Roronoa D. Law]

Soon to be 100 years since the Geneva Conventions and people on here still supporting colonialism. Must be nice to be white.

This port was founded by English people, this area was unihabited when the settlers came here. Without them this city wouldn't exist and would be today be a wasteland most likely.

There were people living there before the British came. You can give them credit for forming the first government but you can say they were the first to settle there.

And no, even if the British did not settle in South Africa there would still be a city along Algoa bay. The Xhosas would have developed a government and would have used it as a port to trade and later compete with the Zulus and Khoekhoes.

[certified hummus supporter 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

Soon to be 100 years since the Geneva Conventions and people on here still supporting colonialism. Must be nice to be white.

This port was founded by English people, this area was unihabited when the settlers came here. Without them this city wouldn't exist and would be today be a wasteland most likely.

There were people living there before the British came. You can give them credit for forming the first government but you can say they were the first to settle there.

And no, even if the British did not settle in South Africa there would still be a city along Algoa bay. The Xhosas would have developed a government and would have used it as a port to trade and later compete with the Zulus and Khoekhoes.

I will admit I am ignorant about the overall development and geography of South Africa. Is Algoa Bay a naturally deep water bay or did it become a port thanks to European colonization?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

A couple years ago Minneapolis changed the name of Lake Calhoun to Lake Bde Maka Ska, the original Lakota name for the lake. Absolutely no one ever calls it that even though everyone agrees Calhoun was a major asshole and the Calhoun Building named after it has yet to be renamed.

I have zero doubt that it will remain to be called Port Elizabeth in all non-formal contexts.