Spanish elections and politics III / Pedro Sánchez faces a new term as PM

[It's Perro Sanxe wot won it]

I honestly don't care about the typical legalese argument. I do think democracy is being eroded from within liberal democratic institutions by judges and prosecutors (whether left or right) and I can list the issues with the Spanish judiciary once I get to my PC. But your r/iamverysmart and understand liberal democracy act isn't impressive. If you can't see how the Spanish legal system is fundamentally biased that's your problem.

The difference here is that Sanchez is not doing what Netenyahu is doing. Sanchez is not Orbanising Spain, as far as I can tell he is not amending the constitution either. Maybe you should join in the Cara al Sol chants on the street if you think this is anywhere near the kind of judiciary to legislative power grap you think it is. I'm sure you'll meet plenty of defenders of liberal democracy there.

It may not be unwarranted in Spanish law, but when Ayuso awards contracts to her brother for significant amounts but is a free woman while political leaders of a minority community are jailed for organising the activity of putting papers in boxes as part of the manifesto they were elected on, I think you have a sick judiciary yes.

Well, with that first sentence you yourself confirm that you are proudly ignorant of what you are talking about. Whatever fits you to prevent cognitive dissonance from interfering with your prejudices and the two or three sectarian notions you have about the issue. There is nothing of substance to be discussed with you.

[Flyersfan232]

so how much do the right having the senate majority means in terms of psoe governing

[peterthlee]

If every vote from separatist parties is needed for the continuum of the government, how long would it last?

Also, could the political right win an absolute majority in the foreseeable future?

If we are pedantic, CC and BNG, both with a single seat each, can be dropped. That being said, BNG won't ask for much (basically more money for Galicia) and CC's support really seems a last ditch effort to keep the money tap flowing but they have no leverage over Sanchez

Realistically it's going to come down to Puigdemont. And the next Catalan election will have a lot to do with how the Spanish government evolves

The separatist parties could further see their support eroded in this way...

OT: if Sanchez managed to cling on, I could foresee a way of Trudeau hanging on after next Canadian election, on the condition of CPC getting less than 170 seats. Negotiations between LPC, NDP and BQ is theoretically easier than that between PSOE and ERC/Junts.

If this is set as precedent, the only way of CPC winning government in next election is them getting an absolute majority of seats.

[brucejoel99]

so how much do the right having the senate majority means in terms of psoe governing

The Senate is like the House of Lords: it can veto legislation, but this can only be overridden by an absolute majority vote of Congress (at least 176/350, treating absent members & abstentions as "No" votes), thereby necessitating votes from ERC/Junts for the final passage of any legislation that the PP Senate plays hardball on.

[Peeperkorn]

I'm actually surprised that Spain still has a senate, aren't there any proposals to abolish it? Or is changing the 1978 Constitution considered taboo?

[Estrella]

The separatist parties could further see their support eroded in this way...

OT: if Sanchez managed to cling on, I could foresee a way of Trudeau hanging on after next Canadian election, on the condition of CPC getting less than 170 seats. Negotiations between LPC, NDP and BQ is theoretically easier than that between PSOE and ERC/Junts.

If this is set as precedent, the only way of CPC winning government in next election is them getting an absolute majority of seats.

That is true, but why would BQ do it? It’s not like the main point of Poilievre’s platform is digging up the corpse of Jacques Parizeau and putting him on trial for treason.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

If we are pedantic, CC and BNG, both with a single seat each, can be dropped. That being said, BNG won't ask for much (basically more money for Galicia) and CC's support really seems a last ditch effort to keep the money tap flowing but they have no leverage over Sanchez

Realistically it's going to come down to Puigdemont. And the next Catalan election will have a lot to do with how the Spanish government evolves

Simultaneously, an agreement was reached with the BNG to reduce tolls on two Galician highways (namely AP-9 and AP-53) and the creation of railway connections in Galicia.[153][154]

The best kind of Spanish regionalism. If only Teruel Existe still held a seat in Congress...

[Flyersfan232]

If every vote from separatist parties is needed for the continuum of the government, how long would it last?

Also, could the political right win an absolute majority in the foreseeable future?

If we are pedantic, CC and BNG, both with a single seat each, can be dropped. That being said, BNG won't ask for much (basically more money for Galicia) and CC's support really seems a last ditch effort to keep the money tap flowing but they have no leverage over Sanchez

Realistically it's going to come down to Puigdemont. And the next Catalan election will have a lot to do with how the Spanish government evolves

The separatist parties could further see their support eroded in this way...

OT: if Sanchez managed to cling on, I could foresee a way of Trudeau hanging on after next Canadian election, on the condition of CPC getting less than 170 seats. Negotiations between LPC, NDP and BQ is theoretically easier than that between PSOE and ERC/Junts.

If this is set as precedent, the only way of CPC winning government in next election is them getting an absolute majority of seats.

this government wont last more then 2 years at best

[Velasco]

Demonstrations against amnesty took place yesterday throughout Spain, organized by the PP and seconded by Vox. The attendance was likely measured by hundreds of thousands. In Puerta del Sol Ayuso claims that Spain is turning into a dictatorship under Pedro Sánchez and promised to "return blow for blow". Meanwhile Ayuso' takes advantage to cut LGBT rights, suppressing the most progressive aspects of the regional law passed under the Cristina Cifuentes administration (gender self-determination is no longer recognized by the Madrid's government)

[It’s so Joever]

The only good thing about this election is that the right wing is coping so hard. Sadly they are almost certainly sett to gain power in a few years.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

If we are pedantic, CC and BNG, both with a single seat each, can be dropped. That being said, BNG won't ask for much (basically more money for Galicia) and CC's support really seems a last ditch effort to keep the money tap flowing but they have no leverage over Sanchez

Realistically it's going to come down to Puigdemont. And the next Catalan election will have a lot to do with how the Spanish government evolves

Simultaneously, an agreement was reached with the BNG to reduce tolls on two Galician highways (namely AP-9 and AP-53) and the creation of railway connections in Galicia.[153][154]

The best kind of Spanish regionalism. If only Teruel Existe still held a seat in Congress...

Pork barrelling regionalists are so unfathomably based ❤️

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/PoderJudicialEs/status/1724057188556017807

It's fitting that on the day the US Supreme Court releases its own code of conduct the Spanish equivalent released its own assertions of its role, opening the door to a potential judicial coup. And millions of democrats are supposed to just ignore that democracy in the "liberal" West will be safeguarded by a bunch of arrogant judges, be it left or right, who put themselves above the general interest. It's almost as if the reason why populists like Junts Per Cash emerge is because of this guilded cage culture that renders parliamentary democracy useless and a foregone conclusion, MPs reduced to being merely the customer service of the angrier, smellier and elderly boomer reactionaries. No space for any political economy debate, the limits of the state, no more philosophers, economists, sociologists, working class people...just lawyers and and their mediocre marketing people (Including Señor Sanchez) to sell the legalese horse dung to the masses.

[Velasco]

Tucker Carlson was recently in Buenos Aires interviewing Javier Milei and last Sunday was in Madrid attending the demonstrations against amnesty with Vox friends

https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1724146877401100595?t=U3l3Ez-EnW6Gww-xX...

Anne Applebaum accuses Pedro Sánchez (a staunch supporter of Ukraine) of ignoring the Russian role in the Catalan separatist process,  while ignoring the presence of the pro-Kremlin Tucker Carlson in Madrid

https://twitter.com/anneapplebaum/status/1724164160877891675?t=f8voxJ9NUK8HoCeyH...

The PSOE has finally submitted the amnesty bill, which has a memorandum and --according to some commentators-- is a solid text without mentions to "lawfare" or "judicialization of politics". From what I've been hearing,  the amnesty would benefit the organizers of the illegal referendum and protest campaigns, as well as principals whom permitted polling booths in schools and policemen investigated for alleged abuses. However,  it's not clear that amnesty will benefit those in Puigdemont's entourage investigated for alleged contacts with the Kremlin. We'll see...

Speaker Francina Armengol set investiture debate tomorrow and the following day. On paper,  Pedro Sánchez would be rlected in a first vote with 179 affirmative votes. CC will vote in favour of the investiture and against the amnesty law

[DL]

I normally have a lot of time for Anne Appelbaum - but she ought to know better in this case. The alternative to an amnesty deal that keeps Sanchez in power, is likely a rabidly rightwing government where the fascist, pro-Putin Vox party has a lot of power.

[Zinneke]

I normally have a lot of time for Anne Appelbaum - but she ought to know better in this case. The alternative to an amnesty deal that keeps Sanchez in power, is likely a rabidly rightwing government where the fascist, pro-Putin Vox party has a lot of power.

Applebaum's hot takes on Western European politics often are just copy pasted from her husband's EPP network in Brussels. Incidentally Sikorski is on the payroll of numerous foreign governments and consultancies...

[CumbrianLefty]

What is "the Russian role in the Catalan separatist process" exactly?

[Zinneke]

What is "the Russian role in the Catalan separatist process" exactly?

Some of the people around Puigdemont's front for a  [EDIT : it was Puigdemont's Parliamentary assistant]met with Russian officials allegedly. But then they also probably met with officials with Tuvalu. Or Swaziland. Or Nicaragua.

I thought Rufian of all people put it best when he said the real problem was that the Puigdemont/CSO wing of the separatist effort took themselves for James Bond just for having such a meeting.

In the end Applebaum is kind of what the caricature tankies paint of the neo-McCarthyite warmonger. Behind every social ébullition, there's some shady Russian figure in her eyes. But her husband being a paid asset for the UAE is not a problem.

[Red Velvet]

What is "the Russian role in the Catalan separatist process" exactly?

Russia supposedly supports Catalan nationalism in order to stimulate a divide inside Europe. Kinda like they also were in favor of BREXIT in UK. At least that’s what I’ve heard from Western liberal types.

[brucejoel99]

https://twitter.com/ObradoiroDBC/status/1724858255455789344

[Logical]

Perro Sanxe does it again.
https://twitter.com/electo_mania/status/1725124858122572125
YES (179)
-PSOE
-Sumar
-ERC
-Junts
-Bildu
-PNV
-BNG
-CC

NO (171)
-PP
-VOX
-UPN

[CumbrianLefty]

Whatever you think about exactly how he has done this, it is an impressive achievement nonetheless. Now comes the maybe even more difficult bit - actually governing.

[P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong]

Real ones knew PSOE would pull it off in the end. Congrats Spain, other countries would be lucky to have a government made of people like yours.

[Velasco]

The debate has been terrible, except for a witty joke about Feijóo's motor-driven tractor ("it's Vox's oil") made by PNV spokesman Aitor Esteban. Pedro Sánchez felt confident mocking Feijóo's absurd claims (he didn't renounce to be PM: the PP leader would have made deals with Junts and PNV, in case they were compatible with Vox), but wasn't convincing explaining why he supports a measure that he opposed a few months ago ("turning necessity into virtue" is pragmatic and fine, but it's not enough). Feijóo made a lamentable performance, while the far-right Abascal compared Sánchez to Hitler before leaving Congress to join the fascist demonstration in front of PSOE'S HQs in Madrid. In the guests gallery, Isabel Díaz Ayuso was caught mumbling "son of a b####" when Sánchez mentioned an alleged corruption scandal involving her brother.  Yolanda Díaz showed that she's good in day-to-day affairs, but she has not the makings of a political leader. Gabriel Rufián made a good account of the countless claims on Spain's breaking up made by the Spanish Right. Junts spokeswoman Míriam Nogueras got angry because Sánchez said 'dialog" instead of "negotiation" and talked about "reconciliation" during his speech (both Rufián and Nogueras warned Sánchez that he needs their votes to get legislation passed). Anyway...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/16/pedro-sanchez-wins-second-term-spain-pm-catalan-amnesty-deal

Pedro Sánchez has clinched a second term as Spain’s prime minister after winning an ill-tempered investiture vote that was dominated by his decision to secure the support of Catalan separatists by offering a controversial amnesty to those involved in the failed push for regional independence six years ago (...)  

Perro Sanxe does it again.
[
YES (179)
-PSOE
-Sumar
-ERC
-Junts
-Bildu
-PNV
-BNG
-CC

NO (171)
-PP
-VOX
-UPN

♥ ♥ ♥

https://twitter.com/jfmoriche/status/1725125379004723452?t=dViYabPcgEGmRfk0t8eWL...

[Lumine]

Have to salute Sanchez on being such a crafty and tough SOB.

What I don't get from his particular magic is how he can get away with consistently holding contradictory positions or changing his red lines - or, to put it less kindly, lying through his teeth in an admirably ballsy manner - without encountering punishment from the electorate.

It can't just be his ability to pick the moment for an election or the transparent mediocrity of his rivals, surely?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Have to salute Sanchez on being such a crafty and tough SOB.

What I don't get from his particular magic is how he can get away with consistently holding contradictory positions or changing his red lines - or, to put it less kindly, lying through his teeth in an admirably ballsy manner - without encountering punishment from the electorate.

It can't just be his ability to pick the moment for an election or the transparent mediocrity of his rivals, surely?

I doubt he would appreciate the comparison, but that type of politician (exactly what the trick entails differs depending on political systems and contexts, but the skill set is always much the same) is not really a novelty:



It works until it doesn't. That can be a very long time, especially when most opposing forces are inept, foolish or both.