Spanish elections and politics III / Pedro Sánchez faces a new term as PM

[Mike88]

King Juan Carlos not being present I understand, but it's weird Queen Sofia not being present. From what I'm aware she's very popular in Spain. Families, royal or commoner, are complicated.

[Velasco]

King Juan Carlos not being present I understand, but it's weird Queen Sofia not being present. From what I'm aware she's very popular in Spain. Families, royal or commoner, are complicated.

 Apparently the reason is not giving the impression there's a different treatment for Juan Carlos and Sofia. While the former king is floating in a sort of limbo (neither is prosecuted nor returning to La Zarzuela), the former queen is virtually ostracized in the royal residence.  I don't know if Sofía is still popular, but her relationship with the queen consort Letizia has been strained since years ago.  I gather from the news that Sofia will attend the family celebration, as well as Juan Carlos will be there for a few hours and requested a meeting with his son Felipe. Sofia is pretty accustomed to be rebuffed, on the other hand. She's a very traditional and conservative aristocratic woman who always rejected the idea of divorce, despite the continous unfidelities of Juan Carlos. Their marriage is dead since late 1970s, but Sofia opted to remain as Queen of Spain and support humiliations from her husband. Letizia comes from a normal family and was a succesful professional before marrying Felipe, so she has different ideas about the role of wonen in society and never understood the elder Sofia. It’s notorious that Juan Carlos also hates Letizia and blames her for his disgraces. The Spanish royal family is complicated,  yes

[Flyersfan232]

King Juan Carlos not being present I understand, but it's weird Queen Sofia not being present. From what I'm aware she's very popular in Spain. Families, royal or commoner, are complicated.

 Apparently the reason is not giving the impression there's a different treatment for Juan Carlos and Sofia. While the former king is floating in a sort of limbo (neither is prosecuted nor returning to La Zarzuela), the former queen is virtually ostracized in the royal residence.  I don't know if Sofía is still popular, but her relationship with the queen consort Letizia has been strained since years ago.  I gather from the news that Sofia will attend the family celebration, as well as Juan Carlos will be there for a few hours and requested a meeting with his son Felipe. Sofia is pretty accustomed to be rebuffed, on the other hand. She's a very traditional and conservative aristocratic woman who always rejected the idea of divorce, despite the continous unfidelities of Juan Carlos. Their marriage is dead since late 1970s, but Sofia opted to remain as Queen of Spain and support humiliations from her husband. Letizia comes from a normal family and was a succesful professional before marrying Felipe, so she has different ideas about the role of wonen in society and never understood the elder Sofia. It’s notorious that Juan Carlos also hates Letizia and blames her for his disgraces. The Spanish royal family is complicated,  yes

any chance the succession laws are chance to allow full equally when its come for succession like it is for the nobles.

[P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong]

Obviously the monarchy is outdated, unnecessary, and, above all, silly. That being said, they are a very interesting group of people, Felipe has always struck me as a king straight out of central casting, the whole family are like a bunch of actors playing the most stereotypical characters of a modern constitutional monarchy. From the embarrassment of L-merito to Letizia who I'm certain was built in a laboratory owned by Hola magazine. Felipe and Leonor and co have done everything they have to do in order to bring back their popularity, let's see what happens

[Velasco]

"The choreography of Pedro Sánchez

1. Announcement of amnesty before the PSOE's federal commitee (turn need into a virtue)

2. Santos Cerdán (PSOE MP and close aide of Pedro Sánchez) visits Puigdemont
https://elpais.com/espana/catalunya/2023-10-31/carles-puigdemont-y-santos-cerdan-una-foto-cocinada-durante-55-dias.html

3. Princess Leonor swears the Constitution

Message: Spain's not breaking up"

https://twitter.com/EstefMolina_/status/1719280717526442242?t=bNkURRS3wztQEfGWiG...

[Velasco]

PSOE and ERC have reached an agreement on the content of the amnesty law, which is still unknown. Possibly investiture will take place by the end of next week

[Antonio the Sixth]

PSOE and ERC have reached an agreement on the content of the amnesty law, which is still unknown. Possibly investiture will take place by the end of next week

Is Junts still digging its heels in or is there a reasonable chance that they'll sign off as well?

[Velasco]

PSOE and ERC have reached an agreement on the content of the amnesty law, which is still unknown. Possibly investiture will take place by the end of next week

Is Junts still digging its heels in or is there a reasonable chance that they'll sign off as well?

Junts support is yet to be confirmed, but the visit of a Pedro Sánchez aide to Brussels and the meeting with Puigdemont are assumed to be a positive signal in what concerns the investiture agreement. Most political analysts say that it's very likely that Pedro Sánchez has secured his investiture. Sorry for being unable to provide more details, but negotiations are taking place with absolute secretism

[It's Perro Sanxe wot won it]

PSOE and ERC have reached an agreement on the content of the amnesty law, which is still unknown. Possibly investiture will take place by the end of next week

Is Junts still digging its heels in or is there a reasonable chance that they'll sign off as well?

It has been a done deal for weeks. They are getting everything they could reasonably expect without making any concessions of their own.

[Velasco]

Junts maiñtains suspense over last minute disagreements with the PSOE, reports El País. Puigdemont and the Junts leadership hold a meeting to decide on investiture agreement. The PP will promote a Senate reform (Feijóo's party has a majority in the Upper House), in order to delay the vote of the amnesty vote. PSOE and ERC will announce their deal this evening with the appearances of Félix Bolaños (PSOE) and Oriol Junqueras (ERC). The PSOE-ERC deal incorporates amnesty law and the transfer of suburban trains to the Catalan government

Live update:

https://elpais.com/espana/2023-11-02/pactos-y-negociaciones-para-la-investidura-de-sanchez-en-directo.html

[Flyersfan232]

Junts maiñtains suspense over last minute disagreements with the PSOE, reports El País. Puigdemont and the Junts leadership hold a meeting to decide on investiture agreement. The PP will promote a Senate reform (Feijóo's party has a majority in the Upper House), in order to delay the vote of the amnesty vote. PSOE and ERC will announce their deal this evening with the appearances of Félix Bolaños (PSOE) and Oriol Junqueras (ERC). The PSOE-ERC deal incorporates amnesty law and the transfer of suburban trains to the Catalan government

Live update:

https://elpais.com/espana/2023-11-02/pactos-y-negociaciones-para-la-investidura-de-sanchez-en-directo.html

how long the government last with a pp senate majority?

[MaxQue]

Junts maiñtains suspense over last minute disagreements with the PSOE, reports El País. Puigdemont and the Junts leadership hold a meeting to decide on investiture agreement. The PP will promote a Senate reform (Feijóo's party has a majority in the Upper House), in order to delay the vote of the amnesty vote. PSOE and ERC will announce their deal this evening with the appearances of Félix Bolaños (PSOE) and Oriol Junqueras (ERC). The PSOE-ERC deal incorporates amnesty law and the transfer of suburban trains to the Catalan government

Live update:

https://elpais.com/espana/2023-11-02/pactos-y-negociaciones-para-la-investidura-de-sanchez-en-directo.html

how long the government last with a pp senate majority?

That's irrelevent, as the House has the power to override the Senate for most bills.

[Mike88]

As expected, Puigdemont is "stretching the rope" as much as possible and delaying, or rather "derailing", Sanchéz investiture. He now wants a broader amnesty, which from what I understand involves corruption charges, something the PSOE has said it is a "red line".

We'll see how this unfolds.

[Antonio the Sixth]

As expected, Puigdemont is "stretching the rope" as much as possible and delaying, or rather "derailing", Sanchéz investiture. He now wants a broader amnesty, which from what I understand involves corruption charges, something the PSOE has said it is a "red line".

We'll see how this unfolds.

F**king unbelievable. Catalan nationalists are truly the masters of shooting themselves in the foot.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Ah, the Erdogan strategy.

[MaxQue]

As expected, Puigdemont is "stretching the rope" as much as possible and delaying, or rather "derailing", Sanchéz investiture. He now wants a broader amnesty, which from what I understand involves corruption charges, something the PSOE has said it is a "red line".

We'll see how this unfolds.

F**king unbelievable. Catalan nationalists are truly the masters of shooting themselves in the foot.

I think it's pretty clear by now that ERC is the only Catalan nationalist party, while JxC is Puidgemont nationalist.

[Mike88]

As expected, Puigdemont is "stretching the rope" as much as possible and delaying, or rather "derailing", Sanchéz investiture. He now wants a broader amnesty, which from what I understand involves corruption charges, something the PSOE has said it is a "red line".

We'll see how this unfolds.

F**king unbelievable. Catalan nationalists are truly the masters of shooting themselves in the foot.

I think it's pretty clear by now that ERC is the only Catalan nationalist party, while JxC is Puidgemont nationalist.

Puigdemont is completely unpredictable and is no source of stability. If this drags on, I don't know what Sanchéz gains in trying to cling on to power desperately. Being on the hands of someone like Puigdemont is not a solution.

[Oryxslayer]

As expected, Puigdemont is "stretching the rope" as much as possible and delaying, or rather "derailing", Sanchéz investiture. He now wants a broader amnesty, which from what I understand involves corruption charges, something the PSOE has said it is a "red line".

We'll see how this unfolds.

F**king unbelievable. Catalan nationalists are truly the masters of shooting themselves in the foot.

The exact opposite,  at least from the Junts/Puigdemont perspective. I have made my views on this clique clear already, so I will just restate their view.

Madrid is nothing. Catalonia is everything.  Whether it's just to get power, or whether they actually are determined hardliners,  Junts is the separatist/clean break party.  Some don't think they did anything wrong during the "referendum," and that it's results remain legitimate and Representative.  Far different from ERCs approach. 

To this end, their true position is accelerationism. They haven't exactly been secret about wanting Vox into government,  and restarting the Catalonia fights. Cause Junts wins those fights when it comes to nationalist voters, and they want more nationalists to support separatism.  So PSOE has to offer them a lot to continue legitimizing cooperation within Spain,  what is currently occurring,  and that price very well could just be prohibitively expensive.

[MaxQue]

As expected, Puigdemont is "stretching the rope" as much as possible and delaying, or rather "derailing", Sanchéz investiture. He now wants a broader amnesty, which from what I understand involves corruption charges, something the PSOE has said it is a "red line".

We'll see how this unfolds.

F**king unbelievable. Catalan nationalists are truly the masters of shooting themselves in the foot.

I think it's pretty clear by now that ERC is the only Catalan nationalist party, while JxC is Puidgemont nationalist.

Puigdemont is completely unpredictable and is no source of stability. If this drags on, I don't know what Sanchéz gains in trying to cling on to power desperately. Being on the hands of someone like Puigdemont is not a solution.

Because he is unwilling to leave women and gay people in the hands of Abascal?

[Mike88]

As expected, Puigdemont is "stretching the rope" as much as possible and delaying, or rather "derailing", Sanchéz investiture. He now wants a broader amnesty, which from what I understand involves corruption charges, something the PSOE has said it is a "red line".

We'll see how this unfolds.

F**king unbelievable. Catalan nationalists are truly the masters of shooting themselves in the foot.

I think it's pretty clear by now that ERC is the only Catalan nationalist party, while JxC is Puidgemont nationalist.

Puigdemont is completely unpredictable and is no source of stability. If this drags on, I don't know what Sanchéz gains in trying to cling on to power desperately. Being on the hands of someone like Puigdemont is not a solution.

Because he is unwilling to leave women and gay people in the hands of Abascal?

Like what Oryxslayer said, that's exactly what he wants. But, the point is that there has to be a moment in which Junts decides either if it is part of the solution or part of the problem. As of now, they are sidding in being part of the problem.

[Antonio the Sixth]

As expected, Puigdemont is "stretching the rope" as much as possible and delaying, or rather "derailing", Sanchéz investiture. He now wants a broader amnesty, which from what I understand involves corruption charges, something the PSOE has said it is a "red line".

We'll see how this unfolds.

F**king unbelievable. Catalan nationalists are truly the masters of shooting themselves in the foot.

The exact opposite,  at least from the Junts/Puigdemont perspective. I have made my views on this clique clear already, so I will just restate their view.

Madrid is nothing. Catalonia is everything.  Whether it's just to get power, or whether they actually are determined hardliners,  Junts is the separatist/clean break party.  Some don't think they did anything wrong during the "referendum," and that it's results remain legitimate and Representative.  Far different from ERCs approach. 

To this end, their true position is accelerationism. They haven't exactly been secret about wanting Vox into government,  and restarting the Catalonia fights. Cause Junts wins those fights when it comes to nationalist voters, and they want more nationalists to support separatism.  So PSOE has to offer them a lot to continue legitimizing cooperation within Spain,  what is currently occurring,  and that price very well could just be prohibitively expensive.

So their plan is... to turn Catalonia into Northern Ireland ca. 1970?

I rest my case. Absolute idiocy.

[Flyersfan232]

As expected, Puigdemont is "stretching the rope" as much as possible and delaying, or rather "derailing", Sanchéz investiture. He now wants a broader amnesty, which from what I understand involves corruption charges, something the PSOE has said it is a "red line".

We'll see how this unfolds.

F**king unbelievable. Catalan nationalists are truly the masters of shooting themselves in the foot.

The exact opposite,  at least from the Junts/Puigdemont perspective. I have made my views on this clique clear already, so I will just restate their view.

Madrid is nothing. Catalonia is everything.  Whether it's just to get power, or whether they actually are determined hardliners,  Junts is the separatist/clean break party.  Some don't think they did anything wrong during the "referendum," and that it's results remain legitimate and Representative.  Far different from ERCs approach. 

To this end, their true position is accelerationism. They haven't exactly been secret about wanting Vox into government,  and restarting the Catalonia fights. Cause Junts wins those fights when it comes to nationalist voters, and they want more nationalists to support separatism.  So PSOE has to offer them a lot to continue legitimizing cooperation within Spain,  what is currently occurring,  and that price very well could just be prohibitively expensive.

So their plan is... to turn Catalonia into Northern Ireland ca. 1970?

I rest my case. Absolute idiocy.

HOpe they enjoy prime Minister Santiago Abascal

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Junts is a right-wing party so I'm sure a de facto Abascal government would be perfectly congenial to Puigdemont on many policy levels as well. We need to stop assuming there is anything inherently progressive about these rich-region separatisms.

[It's Perro Sanxe wot won it]

Yesterday, PSOE party HQs all across the country were surrounded by demonstrators protesting against amnesty for Catalan pro-independence leaders. The chants heard at these gatherings ranged from cries for the jailing of Pedro Sánchez to ones related to conspiracy theories about the 2004 11-M Madrid terrorist bombings. In the capital, at least three people were arrested and police dispersed protesters in front of central PSOE HQs with tear gas and rubber bullets.

Simultaneously, at an emergency session, the General Council of the Judiciary passed an institutional declaration condemning the proposed amnesty law as an unprecedented threat to the rule of law. This comes after the conservative Professional Association of the Judiciary, representing almost 25% of all judges, stated last week that any amnesty law would mean the beginning of the end of democracy in Spain.

In the meantime, Junts and PSOE are on the brink of reaching an agreement. It is not completely clear what the disagreement causing the delay is, but both sides have signaled that its resolution is imminent. Most likely, Junts simply wishes to be seen as more reluctant than ERC in reaching a deal.

[Zinneke]

Junts is a right-wing party so I'm sure a de facto Abascal government would be perfectly congenial to Puigdemont on many policy levels as well. We need to stop assuming there is anything inherently progressive about these rich-region separatisms.

Junts is nowhere near as right wing as Vox lol, it's the very definition of a catch all party that has slowly turned into a bizarre true believers cult.

You may want to tarnish Catalan nationalism with "rich region" separatism, the fact remains that it is incomparable to Lega Nord or post-Volksunie Flemish nationalism, in that those two have really emerged almost purely out of wanting to enact right-wing separatism (I would go as far to say they are artificial), whereas Catalan nationalism has a variety of wings, with the overall assumption, believe it or not, that an independent Catalonia would at the very least be far more socially progressive than the median Spain. Given that without Basque and Catalan voters we'd have a Vox-PP government this isn't exactly far fetched. As for economic policy, while Convergencia was clearly a formation of people who cared about their tax brackets a lot, what tipped the scales in Catalonia was the (re-)emergence of ERC as one of the largest parties around the time where the debate in the southern European countries revolved around austerity and public services were being butchered. It isn't a far fetch to say that ERC were successful in turning Catalan nationalism popular tha KS to anti-austerity politics, so calling it "rich region bourgeois nationalism" is too reductionist imo.