Worst riots in Netherlands in 40 years directed against curfew. UPDATE: More riots announced

[LAKISYLVANIA]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55799919

[CumbrianLefty]

Obviously, there is more to this than *just* the curfew.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Obviously, there is more to this than *just* the curfew.

People are just sick of it. I actually understand why people are rioting now.

There have been messages on social media to riot in Belgium as well

[Zinneke]

Obviously, there is more to this than *just* the curfew.

People will point out Wilders and Baudet, and rightfully so, but when Rutte also engages in posturing about how the Dutch people are more capable of individual responsibility than the average European, he also needs to take some heat. He knew full well measures like this might have to be taken (and I'm against curfews even if I understand why lockdowns are being enforced) and he still indulged them in their sense of superiority.

Also, the radical religious fundementalists in Urk burned down a PCR center. Time to refill Flevoland until we know what the hell is going on!

[dead0man]

but when Rutte also engages in posturing about how the Dutch people are more capable of individual responsibility than the average European

yeah, Belgians are every bit as individually irresponsible as Greeks or Spaniards.  What an asshole this Rutte guy is, burn it all to the ground!

[palandio]

Depending on the location riots like these can involve bored football hooligans, far-right sympathizers, far-left sympathizers, frustrated migrant youths, camorra stooges, religious extremists, etc.

We often doubt that the apparent direct cause is the real cause and the violence involved makes us think that this is maybe only about the violence itself and not political at all.

But make no mistake. If certain segments of society were less frustrated, all the agitation would fall on much less fertile ground.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Well...

I know rioting isn't the solution. All they do is hurt shopowners and the people who accept the measures blindly. I mean they protested without masks and without social distancing.

What they could do instead is do massive organized attacks targetted on our governments or news media or Pfizer on the internet, taking down their sites, spread viruses and doxx on twitter or facebook massively. That way, people don't get hurt and covid measures stay intact.

I'm actually also very angry for the measures they take and are inequal. Older people who are vaccinated get a passport. If they have such a passport, will they allow their freedom back before we even are vaccinated? Secondly, we are only allowed to see one person, but people can still travel and bring these mutations here, they are idiots. Thirdly, we're forced to work until we're dead but we have no right for leisure time. Who gets caught gets a 1250 euro fine and a prison sentence. Those people who get caught, get my support. They're also ing up our vaccines programs, lagging behind on other nations and paying millions or billions of money to big pharma with taxpayer's money. The government including the greens are taking measures that hurt public transport (like not being able to pay on the bus or scraping less frequently used routes and "busses you can call to pick you up" as austerity measures, making it harder for people like me who deliberately chooses not to use a car for the environment, stress and eyesight/concentration issues) to be transported. On top of that, i live in a rural town with not a single shop (or one but it's closed because of covid).

And the greens are in the government. What the hell were those traitors thinking???

I'm not going to riot. But I would rather kill myself because i'm sick of it, and it's my method to protest. They don't care about mental health of people whose freedom have been taken away, like youngsters and students. Half of them suffers from a depression. Psychologists and health workers have louded alarm clocks and nothing is being done about it.

Let's face it. Our generation is a bunch of losers, myself included.

[Velasco]

but when Rutte also engages in posturing about how the Dutch people are more capable of individual responsibility than the average European

yeah, Belgians are every bit as individually irresponsible as Greeks or Spaniards.  What an asshole this Rutte guy is, burn it all to the ground!

You don't have a clue about the meaning of concepts like individual responsibility, so you better shut up before insulting people from other countries. Also, what kind of asshole liberartarian would refer to the Belgians, Greeks and Spaniards as collectivities?

Anyway your remarks don't surprise me. I always thought that libertarianism is foolish, unless you are a millionaire looking for the best ways to evade taxes.  Have you already bought a property in NZ or a bunker apartment in Kansas, in order to seek refuge when Doomsday comes?

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Depending on the location riots like these can involve bored football hooligans, far-right sympathizers, far-left sympathizers, frustrated migrant youths, camorra stooges, religious extremists, etc.

We often doubt that the apparent direct cause is the real cause and the violence involved makes us think that this is maybe only about the violence itself and not political at all.

But make no mistake. If certain segments of society were less frustrated, all the agitation would fall on much less fertile ground.

Football hooligans are confirmed, but it seems a combination of all of them including people who actually wanted to do something and have some fun by destroying shops and burning cars and bicycles

[dead0man]

but when Rutte also engages in posturing about how the Dutch people are more capable of individual responsibility than the average European

yeah, Belgians are every bit as individually irresponsible as Greeks or Spaniards.  What an asshole this Rutte guy is, burn it all to the ground!

You don't have a clue about the meaning of concepts like individual responsibility, so you better shut up before insulting people from other countries. Also, what kind of asshole liberartarian would refer to the Belgians, Greeks and Spaniards as collectivities?

Anyway your remarks don't surprise me. I always thought that libertarianism is foolish, unless you are a millionaire looking for the best ways to evade taxes.  Have you already bought a property in NZ or a bunker apartment in Kansas, in order to seek refuge when Doomsday comes?

lighten up Francis, it was a joke

(and your stereotypes, as always, are wrong...but don't let that stop you!)

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Why not enforce a lockdown for 2 months, close everything except healthcare like the first lockdown, and perhaps we get our freedom back in april...

But no ... they're too stupid and we shouldn't hurt our economy, while clearly numbers are not decreasing with these kind of measures...

Why is east asia able to stop the virus in japan, korea, china, new zealand, vietnam and australia while europe, the america's is not?

[Zinneke]

Why not enforce a lockdown for 2 months, close everything except healthcare like the first lockdown, and perhaps we get our freedom back in april...

But no ... they're too stupid and we shouldn't hurt our economy, while clearly numbers are not decreasing with these kind of measures...

Why is east asia able to stop the virus in japan, korea, china, new zealand, vietnam and australia while europe, the america's is not?

I'll answer more in full Laki but the biggest predictors for being effective in policy against Corona is simply prior experience with a pandemic. We in the West were too ill prepared. We don't have the capacity, both in terms of resource mobilization and as a society, to regulate ourselves during a pandemic. These riots are a symbol of that.

[Velasco]

but when Rutte also engages in posturing about how the Dutch people are more capable of individual responsibility than the average European

yeah, Belgians are every bit as individually irresponsible as Greeks or Spaniards.  What an asshole this Rutte guy is, burn it all to the ground!

You don't have a clue about the meaning of concepts like individual responsibility, so you better shut up before insulting people from other countries. Also, what kind of asshole liberartarian would refer to the Belgians, Greeks and Spaniards as collectivities?

Anyway your remarks don't surprise me. I always thought that libertarianism is foolish, unless you are a millionaire looking for the best ways to evade taxes.  Have you already bought a property in NZ or a bunker apartment in Kansas, in order to seek refuge when Doomsday comes?

lighten up Francis, it was a joke

(and your stereotypes, as always, are wrong...but don't let that stop you!)

Indeed. Stereotypes concerning national, ethnic or religious groups are wrong. They foster bad feelings and horrible ideas. I don't like very much jokes revolving on them, sorry

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Why not enforce a lockdown for 2 months, close everything except healthcare like the first lockdown, and perhaps we get our freedom back in april...

But no ... they're too stupid and we shouldn't hurt our economy, while clearly numbers are not decreasing with these kind of measures...

Why is east asia able to stop the virus in japan, korea, china, new zealand, vietnam and australia while europe, the america's is not?

I'll answer more in full Laki but the biggest predictors for being effective in policy against Corona is simply prior experience with a pandemic. We in the West were too ill prepared. We don't have the capacity, both in terms of resource mobilization and as a society, to regulate ourselves during a pandemic. These riots are a symbol of that.

in addition to decades of austerity measures targetted to healthcare, by all parties including social democrats.

[palandio]

Why not enforce a lockdown for 2 months, close everything except healthcare like the first lockdown, and perhaps we get our freedom back in april...

But no ... they're too stupid and we shouldn't hurt our economy, while clearly numbers are not decreasing with these kind of measures...

Why is east asia able to stop the virus in japan, korea, china, new zealand, vietnam and australia while europe, the america's is not?

As you wrote in your first sentence ("like the first lockdown") many European countries already had what you are proposing. And where do they stand now? Exactly.

If you hurt the economy, people will have more financial problems and more spare time that they can use for rioting.

East Asia had more experience with pandemics. But the real problem is that most European didn't prepare sufficiently for a possible second wave after the spring 2020 lockdown. And by preparing I don't mean "We should never have opened up!" or "We should have closed much earlier!" but copying South Korea and installing a much more efficient testing and tracing system and severe travelling restrictions.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Why not enforce a lockdown for 2 months, close everything except healthcare like the first lockdown, and perhaps we get our freedom back in april...

But no ... they're too stupid and we shouldn't hurt our economy, while clearly numbers are not decreasing with these kind of measures...

Why is east asia able to stop the virus in japan, korea, china, new zealand, vietnam and australia while europe, the america's is not?

As you wrote in your first sentence ("like the first lockdown") many European countries already had what you are proposing. And where do they stand now? Exactly.

If you hurt the economy, people will have more financial problems and more spare time that they can use for rioting.

East Asia had more experience with pandemics. But the real problem is that most European didn't prepare sufficiently for a possible second wave after the spring 2020 lockdown. And by preparing I don't mean "We should never have opened up!" or "We should have closed much earlier!" but copying South Korea and installing a much more efficient testing and tracing system and severe travelling restrictions.

The first lockdown isn't the problem because it worked, but you provided the answer.

copying South Korea and installing a much more efficient testing and tracing system and severe travelling restrictions.

So we need a tighter lockdown, more efficient testing and tracing system, and full ban on travel for entire 2021, except for trade of basic needs (vaccines, food, ...)

[It’s so Joever]

A lot of it is cultural.
Europeans and Americans in general simply are too individualistic as a culture and aren’t family oriented enough. Also there isn’t the shaming element East Asian cultures have.
You can argue the merits of both, but it’s obvious that the Confucian influenced culture is simply more effective in these types of situations.

[palandio]

A lot of it is cultural.
Europeans and Americans in general simply are too individualistic as a culture and aren’t family oriented enough. Also there isn’t the shaming element East Asian cultures have.
You can argue the merits of both, but it’s obvious that the Confucian influenced culture is simply more effective in these types of situations.

That's a very widespread take that is focusing too much on the population and not enough on government responsibility in this whole failure.

It's understandable that at the beginning the governments were overwhelmed, but then numbers went down mostly because the populations followed the rules. In June numbers in Germany, France and Italy were better than they are now in Japan and South Korea. Japan and South Korea managed to keep numbers low and still live relatively free, we in Europe did not because our governments thought that they had solved this.

[StateBoiler]

Japan had likewise seen an increase in cases and in December announced new clampdown measures. Just making a matter of fact point.

[It's not just that you are a crook senator]

I live in a country where there are very strict covid restrictions for a long time and I try to abide by them because I would like to keep other people safe. However, as someone who is at home all the time it has been getting extremely tough mentally (and I also have had a health issue for low activity), I really see why people have had it enough. I do think people should wear masks and keep the social distance as much as they can but I don't think lockdowns should continue if we don't know how much this is going to go on.

[Lechasseur]

I live in a country where there are very strict covid restrictions for a long time and I try to abide by them because I would like to keep other people safe. However, as someone who is at home all the time it has been getting extremely tough mentally (and I also have had a health issue for low activity), I really see why people have had it enough. I do think people should wear masks and keep the social distance as much as they can but I don't think lockdowns should continue if we don't know how much this is going to go on.

Exactly, this can't go on indefinitely

[Pericles]

I live in a country where there are very strict covid restrictions for a long time and I try to abide by them because I would like to keep other people safe. However, as someone who is at home all the time it has been getting extremely tough mentally (and I also have had a health issue for low activity), I really see why people have had it enough. I do think people should wear masks and keep the social distance as much as they can but I don't think lockdowns should continue if we don't know how much this is going to go on.

Exactly, this can't go on indefinitely

There is hope, with the vaccine being rolled out the end of the pandemic and the restrictions are getting closer and closer. However, the Netherlands aren't helping themselves by being the slowest in Western Europe with their vaccinations (or close to it). The Dutch lockdown has started to work with case numbers coming down too, but it's certainly been a very tough winter for people there.

[Alcibiades]

I live in a country where there are very strict covid restrictions for a long time and I try to abide by them because I would like to keep other people safe. However, as someone who is at home all the time it has been getting extremely tough mentally (and I also have had a health issue for low activity), I really see why people have had it enough. I do think people should wear masks and keep the social distance as much as they can but I don't think lockdowns should continue if we don't know how much this is going to go on.

Exactly, this can't go on indefinitely

There is hope, with the vaccine being rolled out the end of the pandemic and the restrictions are getting closer and closer. However, the Netherlands aren't helping themselves by being the slowest in Western Europe with their vaccinations (or close to it). The Dutch lockdown has started to work with case numbers coming down too, but it's certainly been a very tough winter for people there.

Yeah, with the vaccine now available, hunkering down until it takes effect is fine, but if there was no such exit, a more imaginative strategy than stumbling from lockdown to lockdown would have been required.

[Zinneke]

Btw I know they are the favourite whipping boys but the football hools are fighting the protestors in some cases (Maastricht, Den Bosch, Stillem II Tilburg - all with more left sided scenes compared to Dutch average), in some others they are also joining them. So yeah it's bored young men but some are helping out too =D in the end you saw tonight people coming out to help the community.

[It’s so Joever]

I get it if you are unemployed because of this or have lost income, but just how hard is it to stay at home if you can do so while still earning the same income?
I always hear about how bad this is for mental health and whatnot...but I have been staying at home for everything except school (and if I had a choice I would be at home for that lmao) and I don’t get the problem?
Maybe it’s because I live with other people? I’m guessing it’s a lot different if you are alone.

Although even then, my grandmother has been in her tiny apartment alone since March and she has repeatedly said people complaining about it are lying or just pathetic. I’m actually curious because I hear a lot on the news about how hard this has been, but I haven’t felt it personally nor have the few people I do talk with a lot.

Not trying to diminish it, just want to know who exactly is experiencing this as a result of staying at home?