2024 Third Party and Independent Candidate General discussion

[StateBoiler]

Like Rocky Anderson and the People Party, ego’s get in the way of pragmatism.

Well it's the concept of power. For the main parties, unless you're Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders, you're required to compromise to climb the flag pole and achieve power which is the point of politics. Once you've decided you're not going to be a member of one of the main parties' power structure, the incentive to compromise on anything disappears. Because compromising and having no power is the same as not compromising and likewise having no power.

One reason for the heavily splintered left: cohesion requires them to all agree with one another - i.e. compromise. Even if you have all left-wingers or all right-wingers in a room together, you're still going to be required to compromise for the group to work. The only other option is you have a dictator in charge or a "politboro" running affairs.

[Heebie Jeebie]

Like Rocky Anderson and the People Party, ego’s get in the way of pragmatism.

Well it's the concept of power. For the main parties, unless you're Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders, you're required to compromise to climb the flag pole and achieve power which is the point of politics. Once you've decided you're not going to be a member of one of the main parties' power structure, the incentive to compromise on anything disappears. Because compromising and having no power is the same as compromising and likewise having no power.

One reason for the heavily splintered left: cohesion requires them to all agree with one another - i.e. compromise. Even if you have all left-wingers or all right-wingers in a room together, you're still going to be required to compromise for the group to work. The only other option is you have a dictator in charge or a "politboro" running affairs.

haha, how's Bernie's Medicare-for-All push going these days?  I agree with the point you're making, but I'd go even further and say that there are no prominent exceptions, not even Sanders or Trump.  Even prior to 2016, despite the rhetoric Sanders behaved like a normal Senator making pragmatic deals and votes to advance his goals--and he's certainly leaned into the horse trading since losing to Biden.  And even Trump "compromised" on his promises not to attack the social safety net or continue our pointless wars--the policies he actually pursued in office were Obamacare repeal, regressive tax cuts, and support for foreign autocrats.  Oh, and filling the federal judiciary with activist judges committed to crushing individuals' and workers' rights.  Basically, he adopted the traditional Republican agenda in exchange for party support.

[PSOL]

Well, I was referring to the fact that former Democratic and Republican officials usually don’t join already established third parties and stick to their own. Rocky Anderson formed his own party, the progressive activist base formed their own party, Strom Thurmond and Wallace formed their own party, and the Constitution party exists as a refuge for disgruntled ex-Republicans. The whole swathes of progressive, left, fascist, or conservative parties out there do not get formed R’s and D’s.

The only exception to this was the Reform Party, the Libertarians in a mainly limited role locally, and West Virginian progressives now apart of the Green Party.

[StateBoiler]

Well, I was referring to the fact that former Democratic and Republican officials usually don’t join already established third parties and stick to their own.

Justin Amash. I agree in general though.

Strom Thurmond and Wallace formed their own party

Thurmond at least was more the state Democratic Party affiliates leaving the national Democratic Party rather than Thurmond going off forming his own thing. Wallace was the same way but a much less organized extent than Thurmond was.

[PSOL]

Alright, I’m going to over analyze the incomplete results and go as the votes come in from the recall. From most votes for relevant third party and indy candidates to least, here’s my take

Dan Kapelowitz (G) Given the fact that the Green Party ran a nonexistant campaign where they ultimately endorsed a “No” vote, the fact that they came up on top with 1% of the No share is saying something. With a nonexistant campaign of a memester who had to compete with a Greenlib, and the rest of the Left (P&F, PSL, FRSO, DSA) sucking up to endorsing Newsom over Elder, the militancy of their campaign and stubbornness in endorsing No late shows something. Still a poor showing compared to 2003, but that was with a Green Party not conducting a rectification campaign and a more serious candidate. I must point out again that the progressive Anti-Newsom vote was split by greenlib Heather Collins and Dem newcomer Daniel “turncoat” Watts who got a higher raw vote total this time around.

Jeff Hewitt (L) Like the above candidate, a significant amount of would-be voters ended up voting for the duopoly, which was Elder. However, given the fact that Hewitt’s campaign was more serious than the above in a party who’s schtick is capturing the anti-lockdown-and-vax-mandates people, it isn’t as impressive. What’s more, according to recent data, this is all with a party who dwarfs the Greens by tens of thousands of registered voters, or .53%. Talk about weak voter retention.

Angelyne: The real runner-up in performance. Getting tens of thousands of new voters and being in the middle of this pack sure is something.

David Moore (SEP) Weird Sex Website’s overachiever and “winner” compared to all time, but not in raw votes (that’s in 2018). How a microsect which barely even exists and is considered a joke could do this so under the radar is saying to how the SEP’s dedicated followers will go to applying rhetoric to action.

 Michael Loebs (CNP) The real meme party here in this election. Getting 20k votes promoting secession is really…

…really…

Impressive and deserving of note.

Dennis Richter (SWP) Ultimately, the party’s increased activity in staying alive is of note by itself. 7k votes for the second most idiosyncratic group of Boomers who like Trotsky is really of note here

James G Hanink (ASP) Atlas’s favorite meme candidate went nowhere compared to the hype, but with reality they’ve doubled their vote share compared to 2020. They captured a very devoted niche demographic coalition of autistic Catholic uni converts and tradcaths.
COFOE, CATO, and a tripartite pact (Constitution, Libertarian, Green) are suing the Ohio board of commissions for locking out third parties from the Ohio election commission.
So outside of Florida, these are the last state Reform Parties left
https://mobile.twitter.com/Trevorlunsford2/status/1434926047930236936
In analyzing which trends have occurred since Occupy Wall Street, a deflated would-be revolution, and have intensified under the relatively more impactful BLM protests, would be that the political scene has become more fractured and tending to specific niches and cleavages—whether regional (VPP, Hawai’ian separatists, AIP, CNP), class-based(SAlt, WCP, Libertarians, Haute small fief lords in Yang and Pierce), ethnic (Alt-Reich), and religious (Marianne’s posse and ASP). We’ve seen activists try to assert themselves and break apart more established groups—PSL winning out over WWP, the existence of the Mountain and People’s Party, and the factional conflict in the Libertarians. With such niche caterings and a buyers market in factionalist clubs, intra party work is still being done and has strengthened into electoral pacts to go over the insane regional ballot laws.

Given the fluidity of all this and a propensity for information to spread, anyone who isn’t preparing for the rough times ahead of greater ballot access rat••••ing will get torn to shreds. With the decomposition of the broad based and locally personality driven WWP, Reform, and Constitution Party—the old is making way for the new, and it’s being one with a lot of blood being drawn against opponents.

[StateBoiler]

I do enjoy following UK and Canadian elections which are the ones I follow the most outside of the U.S. I like how their media cover elections with nuance instead of how it works here of "did you win? awesome spectacular job; did you lose? f#%$ you, you're a failure". I feel it's due to here the election coverage is presidentially focused whereas in those 2 countries it's legislatively focused. And that's where the most real chance of a gain for minor parties can occur, especially if you believe that the vast majority of these districts are gerrymandered, there's no such thing as a wasted vote in a contest you think only one of the two major parties can win. Unfortunately, there's no real focus on running Congressional candidates instead of say running someone for president. PSOL I believe posted up the only party that's ran more than 100 candidates for the House are the Libertarians going back several years. Ballot access is part of it but even counting the partial ballot access that does exist, it's not fully utilized in the slightest.

I think one of the most successful non-presidential campaigns ever in this country was Newt Gingrich's Contract with America. Would it really hurt the Libertarians or the Greens or whoever to take a page from a Westminster-style democracy, "nominate" a leader pre-election, and that leader is charged with coming up with a Contract with America-style platform that gets every candidate's signature on it? The only way 3rd parties are ever going to get anywhere in a legislative sense is it has to be nationalized, which means nationalizing the campaign for everyone running for Congress.

[PSOL]

The thing is that the Libertarian or Green party would collapse if that was the case due to the many diverse interests in the parties.

Jill Steiners, ex-Panthers, and #BernieOrBusters ultimately are not the same people and have disparate interests on account of their material realities. Jill Steiners don’t like the social conservatives holding the Democratic Party hostage, but socialism is scary to these middle-income dimwits. Meanwhile, the lack of enthusiasm for Black liberation and building black wealth among the Garveyist path differs from soft-left technocrats who just want free healthcare and education.

Meanwhile the white collar professionals, small gay bookclub owners, and potheads. Ultimately, due to homophobia in society and the traumas of being in the closet and having to deal with theft, the middle grouping is very revolutionary and willing to do it all to stop the poor horde of brown people and the tax agents from discovering the ecstasy under the floorboards. The white collar professional isn’t revolutionary and wants lower taxes and the pothead has a good relationship with modern America’s eccentric cast of under-caste drug dealers they play PS4 every so often.

It’s difficult to find unity then if your party is a United band of different collectives and movements only there for convenience, who live different lifestyles and don’t enter out into others’ own worlds. Even the PSL, whose ideology is vaguely left-opportunism, has power struggles that they mend by ensuring that each leader has their own fiefdom and a chance to leave “cleanly”.

Purging is one way, but go too far and you are in for a bad time if you are small and under lots of pressure, as the SPA and Communist party can profess. Ultimately, diversity is a virtue that one can’t shed unless they are in a very high position of power and do a purging slow enough to still have the momentum (or guiding push of inertia). Look also at how the Transhumanist party got even more irrelevant with their main dude being pushed out, and how the Constitution Party’s purity and dictatorial egos broke the party.

Ultimately that’s why I think that unless the Catholic ASP broadens their horizons other than attuned uni students and strict Catholics, they will never hit it big even with them knowing how to run campaigns and have flashy PR, or how I see the Alliance as possibly growing even bigger given the balancing act they have mastered.
So apparently according to Canis a few DSA and lefty groups endorsed the SEP. Well that’s how the dedicated writing team at WSWS does it.

In other news the main Green Party candidate is at striking distance of passing the lowest voting Dem by 3k votes at this moment and the ASP is set to triple their vote share in this election. The Green liberal is set to surpass the CNP memester too.


Preliminary results brought to you by Can(nab)is shows an interesting map. Green Party strength is primarily in the North and Coast while Southern Interior California is barely Libertarian and Central Valley is competitive. The SEP candidate won oddly in geographically dispersed areas while the rest are by independents.

While this all may change, I have my ideas on why the Green Party did not sweep the vote compared to 2001’s recall. The answer primarily lies in the P&F party, whose strength lies with now elderly Latino agricultural workers and ex-students of Berkeley gentrified into Sacremento. They and the PSL among others endorsed and voted for Newsom. Outside of this, more radical Socialists see the Green Party as Bobos and prefer the SEP and their first party, the queen splitting SWP, as an alternative.

I’ll give a brief closing statement once the votes are counted.
The nonbinary candidate the PSL ran got >40% of the vote for city councilor, which is good all things considered given how cash strapped and alienating the PSL is to older voters even in a college town.

Anyway, outside of their usual Stop the Rent campaign, the PSL have been helping Hurricane Ida victims with food and supplies and helping LGBTQ groups in Utah organize against Queerphobia in Brightam Young University. Lotta activity coming from the party.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Trevorlunsford2/status/1434926047930236936

Take out Florida and New York, and these are the last full state parties left. Of course in some rural areas in the middle regions east of the Mississippi there’s a few Reform officeholders going off nostalgia.
So IPR and BAN’s comment section has gotten real nasty lately. You know you are in some deep s••• for brains when someone is railing against “big noses” in the AIP leadership and hearing “Oakies” outside of a Glenn Steinbeck novel. The real question is, what made these places the cesspits of reaction for third party enthusiasts? Were they all Ron Paulites who just never logged off. Do young people not care for discussions like this here?

[StateBoiler]

The thing is that the Libertarian or Green party would collapse if that was the case due to the many diverse interests in the parties.

They're still smaller tents than the 2 main parties.

I'm not saying this thinking it'd be easy. But any party that has a practical platform should be able to take said platform and build up a list of legislative priorities that 75% can agree on and put their name to. There's very low-hanging fruit that is uncontroversial out there. Said item can also make who does run a little more serious which is not a bad thing.

[Continential]

I think one of the most successful non-presidential campaigns ever in this country was Newt Gingrich's Contract with America. Would it really hurt the Libertarians or the Greens or whoever to take a page from a Westminster-style democracy, "nominate" a leader pre-election, and that leader is charged with coming up with a Contract with America-style platform that gets every candidate's signature on it? The only way 3rd parties are ever going to get anywhere in a legislative sense is it has to be nationalized, which means nationalizing the campaign for everyone running for Congress.

StateBoiler, could this strategy work statewide presuming there is a gubernatorial election with a "good" third party candidate running for Governor? 

[StateBoiler]

I think one of the most successful non-presidential campaigns ever in this country was Newt Gingrich's Contract with America. Would it really hurt the Libertarians or the Greens or whoever to take a page from a Westminster-style democracy, "nominate" a leader pre-election, and that leader is charged with coming up with a Contract with America-style platform that gets every candidate's signature on it? The only way 3rd parties are ever going to get anywhere in a legislative sense is it has to be nationalized, which means nationalizing the campaign for everyone running for Congress.

StateBoiler, could this strategy work statewide presuming there is a gubernatorial election with a "good" third party candidate running for Governor? 

Don't see why not. Needs a governor candidate there to represent the party doing well instead of being a one-man show of a wealthy independent however. (So if Andrew Yang does start his 3rd party, does he actually help all the other people running for office that are not him or is he Ross Perot?)

[PSOL]

The thing is that the Libertarian or Green party would collapse if that was the case due to the many diverse interests in the parties.

They're still smaller tents than the 2 main parties.

Dude, no they are not.

[StateBoiler]

The thing is that the Libertarian or Green party would collapse if that was the case due to the many diverse interests in the parties.

They're still smaller tents than the 2 main parties.

Dude, no they are not.

If the tents were larger than there should be more people presently inside the tent.

I'm not a person that treats Marxism-Leninism and Trotskyism (or Minarchism and Objectivism) as if they're completely different philosophies that are impossible to reconcile.

[PSOL]

The thing is that the Libertarian or Green party would collapse if that was the case due to the many diverse interests in the parties.

They're still smaller tents than the 2 main parties.

Dude, no they are not.

If the tents were larger than there should be more people presently inside the tent.

I'm not a person that treats Marxism-Leninism and Trotskyism (or Minarchism and Objectivism) as if they're completely different philosophies that are impossible to reconcile.

Well the larger tents’ major leaders and politicians come from one lane.

Ideology often comes from the material reality, and given the mixed aspect of the party’s income come from different sectors and industries, you get factionalism.

Don’t look at the racial and occupational diversity in the duopoly as meaning anything, most are b••••s and slaves of the dominant donors.

[Orwell]

The difference between Perot and Yang is Perot was a billionaire and Yang is a grifter.

[Canis]

The thing is that the Libertarian or Green party would collapse if that was the case due to the many diverse interests in the parties.

Jill Steiners, ex-Panthers, and #BernieOrBusters ultimately are not the same people and have disparate interests on account of their material realities. Jill Steiners don’t like the social conservatives holding the Democratic Party hostage, but socialism is scary to these middle-income dimwits. Meanwhile, the lack of enthusiasm for Black liberation and building black wealth among the Garveyist path differs from soft-left technocrats who just want free healthcare and education.

Meanwhile the white collar professionals, small gay bookclub owners, and potheads. Ultimately, due to homophobia in society and the traumas of being in the closet and having to deal with theft, the middle grouping is very revolutionary and willing to do it all to stop the poor horde of brown people and the tax agents from discovering the ecstasy under the floorboards. The white collar professional isn’t revolutionary and wants lower taxes and the pothead has a good relationship with modern America’s eccentric cast of under-caste drug dealers they play PS4 every so often.

It’s difficult to find unity then if your party is a United band of different collectives and movements only there for convenience, who live different lifestyles and don’t enter out into others’ own worlds. Even the PSL, whose ideology is vaguely left-opportunism, has power struggles that they mend by ensuring that each leader has their own fiefdom and a chance to leave “cleanly”.

Purging is one way, but go too far and you are in for a bad time if you are small and under lots of pressure, as the SPA and Communist party can profess. Ultimately, diversity is a virtue that one can’t shed unless they are in a very high position of power and do a purging slow enough to still have the momentum (or guiding push of inertia). Look also at how the Transhumanist party got even more irrelevant with their main dude being pushed out, and how the Constitution Party’s purity and dictatorial egos broke the party.

Ultimately that’s why I think that unless the Catholic ASP broadens their horizons other than attuned uni students and strict Catholics, they will never hit it big even with them knowing how to run campaigns and have flashy PR, or how I see the Alliance as possibly growing even bigger given the balancing act they have mastered.
So apparently according to Canis a few DSA and lefty groups endorsed the SEP. Well that’s how the dedicated writing team at WSWS does it.

In other news the main Green Party candidate is at striking distance of passing the lowest voting Dem by 3k votes at this moment and the ASP is set to triple their vote share in this election. The Green liberal is set to surpass the CNP memester too.


Preliminary results brought to you by Can(nab)is shows an interesting map. Green Party strength is primarily in the North and Coast while Southern Interior California is barely Libertarian and Central Valley is competitive. The SEP candidate won oddly in geographically dispersed areas while the rest are by independents.

While this all may change, I have my ideas on why the Green Party did not sweep the vote compared to 2001’s recall. The answer primarily lies in the P&F party, whose strength lies with now elderly Latino agricultural workers and ex-students of Berkeley gentrified into Sacremento. They and the PSL among others endorsed and voted for Newsom. Outside of this, more radical Socialists see the Green Party as Bobos and prefer the SEP and their first party, the queen splitting SWP, as an alternative.

I’ll give a brief closing statement once the votes are counted.
The nonbinary candidate the PSL ran got >40% of the vote for city councilor, which is good all things considered given how cash strapped and alienating the PSL is to older voters even in a college town.

Anyway, outside of their usual Stop the Rent campaign, the PSL have been helping Hurricane Ida victims with food and supplies and helping LGBTQ groups in Utah organize against Queerphobia in Brightam Young University. Lotta activity coming from the party.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Trevorlunsford2/status/1434926047930236936

Take out Florida and New York, and these are the last full state parties left. Of course in some rural areas in the middle regions east of the Mississippi there’s a few Reform officeholders going off nostalgia.
So IPR and BAN’s comment section has gotten real nasty lately. You know you are in some deep s••• for brains when someone is railing against “big noses” in the AIP leadership and hearing “Oakies” outside of a Glenn Steinbeck novel. The real question is, what made these places the cesspits of reaction for third party enthusiasts? Were they all Ron Paulites who just never logged off. Do young people not care for discussions like this here?

Lol thank you for the nickname and sharing of the map!

[PSOL]

Robert Davis Steele is dead. He was the last of the fascist loons to run for Libertarian nomination before going straight ticket R.
SAlt has published their annual reflection of the going ons of the nation. Of note is their admittance that they came very much empty handed in their work within the DSA, and the shift right of the organization as a whole. They also, paradoxically, denounce “ultra-leftism” of building dual power in the streets, instead opting for acting as legal aid for labor unions in power.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AmSolidarity/status/1443265950204272649
https://mobile.twitter.com/PeoplesParty_US/status/1443743796680921098

[NYSforKennedy2024]

Any GP/LP news lately?

[Senator-elect Spark]

We want YE.

[PSOL]

Any GP/LP news lately?

Outside of trying to save their ballot access in New York,no .

[StateBoiler]

Any GP/LP news lately?

LP seems to be mostly focused on 2022 and the upcoming National Convention. There's a comedian named Dave Smith that has said he'll run in 2024. I know nothing about him. Like with the main parties, I think you'll start seeing real candidates enter the ring in 2023. My gut take is Amash runs in 2024 although he's not said anything official or unofficial in that regard. He's still tweeting pro-Libertarian Party things. If that's the case, you'll probably get some Hornberger type to be Amash's main opposition.

September edition of BAN updated ballot access for 2022. There it has Libertarians on 33 states, Greens 15, and Constitution 13.

Couple highlights:

Full party access in Alaska now requires 10821 members:

Libertarians 6846
Greens 1479
Constitution 667

Look like Greens are close to meeting requirement in Delaware.

[StateBoiler]

https://mobile.twitter.com/AmSolidarity/status/1443265950204272649

Yeah, the 3rd party results thread on here at the time I mentioned this. A tiny candidate by third party standards - "President" Boddie - was credited more than 2000 write-in votes in one county. Winger at BAN at the time said this was an error by the county election board and that the main beneficiary was likely Carroll, but results had already been submitted and since it didn't affect who the winner is, that was what was reported federally.

[PSOL]

#CancelTheRents protests in more than 60 cities. P&F, PSL, PP’s Code Pink, and the FSP are participating.

Like I hinted at previously, I would not be surprised for a relationship to form of the new PP to the PSL on account of two factors, the nexus of both organizations being from California and that there’s a relationship angle between Empire Files host Abby Martin and her Husband, Veteran Mike Prysner.

Oddly enough, the PP’s women section is apart of a new Internationale with the PSL.

[PSOL]

Before our main course, a word on the Liberation Party

”My spark started on May 14, 2018."

It was the day Blanding’s brother, Marcus-David Peters, was shot and killed by a Richmond Police Officer while experiencing a mental health crisis. The shooting was later ruled justified by the Richmond Commonwealth’s Attorney's office.

“Since my brother’s murder, myself, family members, and a continuously growing supporter base here in Richmond and beyond, have begged our local officials that we can’t bring Marcus back, but we can at least enact legislation that prioritizes community care and safety,” she said.

Lenin’s radicalization was the death of his brother through extrajudicial murder…
The California Libertarian vote exceeds 50,000 and the SEP has exceeded its 2018 high mark to 5,000 more raw votes. The CNP scored higher than the Green Liberals.
A lot of new additions have entered into the ring, getting in the back of old ones. The new Forward Party joins the CNP, SEP, and SWP in parties which have made their mark recently. The exceptional founding by a former Democratic primary candidate with mainstream attention joins the SWP’s rekindling presence nationwide. The SEP, through World Socialist Website, have provided superb journalism and a reinvention into a major presence among the American Left under everyone’s noses.

The list however joins older contenders. I’ve stated early on that I was thinking about adding the Socialist Party on accounts of their influence inside the Green Party and PCUSA’s entrance into the scene. So far the latter has done nothing of note and went through a split.

My idea is to remove at least two other entries in the list, specifically Kanye and the Constitution Party’s corpse given how burnt and inactive they are since 2020. I will wait till after New Jersey’s election to decide. Till then, I would like all of your thoughts on this matter.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AndrewYang/status/1445161231443189764

[StateBoiler]

Constitution Party should stay on the list. They're still more of a national political party than any group in this country not named the Libertarians or Greens.

If the Republicans don't nominate Trump in 2024 and kind of leave Trump a bit, I expect they'll have a great 2024 by their standards.

[StateBoiler]

People's Party now ballot-qualified in Florida. Per Richard Winger, Florida has more ballot-qualified parties than any other state at 11.

Major Political Parties

Florida Democratic Party  DEM
Republican Party of Florida  REP

Minor Political Parties

Constitution Party of Florida  CPF
Ecology Party of Florida  ECO
Green Party of Florida  GRE
Independent Party of Florida  IND
Libertarian Party of Florida  LPF
Party for Socialism and Liberation - Florida  PSL
People's Party  PEO
Reform Party of Florida  REF
Unity Party of Florida  UPF