What if the coup had achieved its objectives?
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  What if the coup had achieved its objectives?
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Author Topic: What if the coup had achieved its objectives?  (Read 3165 times)
Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin
Runeghost
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« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2021, 09:00:52 PM »

Maybe this is pedantic but I'm not willing to attribute any sort of strategic objective-setting to the coup. It was a raving mob. Trump deserves a lot of blame for actively encouraging them to do something (there's enough plausible deniability to say he didn't call for any specific acts of violence but not enough deniability to say he didn't call for any violence). There were no doubt lots of people who joined the mob with their own individual objectives (e.g., I'm sure the zip tie cosplayer wanted to tie up... someone).

But I haven't seen any evidence of anything coordinated on any noteworthy scale to, e.g., kill Pelosi, kidnap Schumer, hang Pence (???), or other strange claims I've seen floating around the internet in the last four days. If there were coordinated efforts, it's safe to say that law enforcement would have been able to detect and neutralize it given th publicly-planned and not-at-all-discrete nature of the demonstration. That's not to say the coup wasn't dangerous or filled with frothingly-mad people, just that it's unsupported to say there was a coordinated or universal objective.

Just like modern American conservatism is almost singularly defined by fighting over culture war symbology, the primary objective of the riots was a vague and symbolic show of anger, power, force, and resistance. But it's hard to be much more specific than that. The tell here is that of the people entering the capitol, >90% of them wandered aimlessly like dogs who caught the car. Listen to the testimonies of people entering the capitol and most of what they were willing to say to cameras was platitudinous drivel about demonstrating their power. That sense of chaotic and unpredictable energy is still very dangerous, and I think compared to the suite of possible outcomes we ended up with one of the less-violent and destructive ones. But it's different than coordinated effort with a set of well-defined objectives.
Capitol siege was planned online.
Quote
The planning for Wednesday’s assault on the U.S. Capitol happened largely in plain view, with chatters in far-right forums explicitly discussing how to storm the building, handcuff lawmakers with zip ties and disrupt the certification of Joe Biden’s election — in what they portrayed as responding to orders from President Trump.

This went far beyond the widely reported, angry talk about thronging Washington that day. Trump supporters exchanged detailed tactical advice about what to bring and what to do once they assembled at the Capitol to conduct “citizen’s arrests” of members of Congress. One poster said, “[expletive] zip ties. I’m bringing rope!”

I personally don't think the entire mob was organized to do more than overrun the Capitol after being incited by Donald Trump, Giuliani and Trump Junior. (The existence of the mob was engineered by Trump and his enablers.) However it looks to me like there are signs that parts of it were more organized and targeted. 

Some on-the-ground examples in addition to the above Washington Post reporting:

*to quote one officer describing the attackers,
Quote
They had radios, we found them, they had two-way communicators and earpieces. They had bear spray. They had flash bangs ... They were prepared. They strategically put two IEDs, pipe bombs, in two different locations. These guys were military trained. A lot of them were former military,”

*military and police intruders who "flashed their badges and I.D. cards" as they entered the building

*protesters found the unmarked office of Majority Whip Clyburn

*some police standing aside and letting Trump's mob in

*at least two attackers had zip-tie handcuffs

*After the violence had started, Giuliani was on the phone to Trump allies inside the Capitol trying to delay things.

And while I can't find the videos now, I clearly remember watching and noticing coverage of organized Proud Boys in their orange caps,  an organized file of fit males deliberately moving through the crowd and into the Capitol, and attackers with what looked like rappelling gear on terraced walls outside the Capitol.
 

And speaking of the "publicly-planned and not-at-all-discrete nature of the demonstration" ...

Why so few officers on duty with such comparative light gear?

And then there are the still unclear delays in response.


Reportedly some police allowed the breach and intrusion before later being called into action,
Quote
Eventually, I did see some cops inside. They seemed to be standing by, waiting for orders. I’ve been to plenty of protests in the past year, and let me tell you: They don’t usually wait for orders. I’ve never seen anything like it. There was a guy smoking a cigarette, and a cop actually walked over, gently placed his hand on the guy’s shoulder, and asked him to put it out. And that was it.

Eventually, word must have come down. The cops started to smack through crowds with their batons and push them back. They pepper-sprayed people. Eventually, the officers retook the concourse outside the House side of the Capitol by using percussion grenades and tear gas. They had a fire extinguisher that appeared to be filled with pepper spray that they would explode in people’s faces to keep them outside. By then, rioters were using barricades to try to smash back through the doors. They were trashing the place.


Although there was a mob incited to violent sedition by Donald Trump, that does not appear to be the entirety of the story
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compucomp
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« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2021, 09:15:00 PM »

What if Trump had actually led the crowd to the Capitol, directed the assault and issued orders to the mob who to capture?
I'm sure the Capitol Police would have offered no resistance and maybe would have joined the rioters.

What would have been the outcome then?


That would have been an extraordinarily foolish move for Trump. It would have removed any plausible deniability he had, and the coup was still a poorly thought-out coup. Joe Biden would get on TV and call on the military to remove Trump from power, the National Guard and Army gather and march on Washington, easily wipe out the insurrectionists, and arrests Trump. Biden is declared president with immediate effect.
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Badger
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« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2021, 09:39:32 PM »

Where’re we getting the idea that the protesters at the Capitol wanted to kill Schumer and Pelosi?  Is that what they were chanting?  Did they kill anyone else along the way?  lmao

If the mob had been allowed to overrun the Capitol well into the night, then the House/Senate would have convened somewhere else to certify the electoral college results.  This actually isn’t unprecedented.  An emergency forced the Senate to convene at an alternate location in 2011.  Anyone want to guess what it was?

They were loudly yelling to hang Mike Pence for starters. It has come out in numerous reports that there was a concerted desire to capture and kidnap Pelosi and Schumer, Plus as many other Democratic and other "disloyal" members of Congress as possible.

At best we would have had Pence lynched, and a hostage situation with Pelosi and other members of Congress almost surely executed. The hostage situation could be going on now.

FYI, being an amoral apologist for brownshirts is a bad look.
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Badger
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« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2021, 09:44:46 PM »
« Edited: January 11, 2021, 02:54:25 AM by Badger »

Where’re we getting the idea that the protesters at the Capitol wanted to kill Schumer and Pelosi?  Is that what they were chanting?  Did they kill anyone else along the way?  lmao

If the mob had been allowed to overrun the Capitol well into the night, then the House/Senate would have convened somewhere else to certify the electoral college results.  This actually isn’t unprecedented.  An emergency forced the Senate to convene at an alternate location in 2011.  Anyone want to guess what it was?

They killed Officer Sicknick.

They were also chanting "Hang Mike Pence" and constructed a makeshift gallows, so the idea that it can just be assumed they would have stayed peaceful is absurd, and classic Del Tachi far-right-coddling.

Haven’t antifa and BLM protesters done things like burn Trump in effigy?  Maxine Waters told supporters to “knock off” Trump and Pence?  even Hollywood been complicit when celebs say Trump should be killed?  At any rate, what did you have to say about all the left wing demonstrations that descended into destruction and anarchy last summer?  If you were silent then, be silent now too

But crazies putting up some pretend gallows up?  WAY TOO MUCH.  Plus, didn’t we hear non-stop last year how “peaceful protesters” shouldn’t be lumped in with the more radical elements attending their gatherings?

I am not in the business of condoning clearly unlawful, disruptive mass gatherings of radicalized rubes.  But it should be clearly obvious to everyone, no matter your partisan persuasion, that people are reading into Wednesday’s events what they like.    

Are you truly so dense, you can't make a distinction between burning someone in effigy, Kathy Griffin posing on some magazine cover with a plastic severed Trump head for shock value, in the literal swimming by an armed mob with the avowed and loud gold to literally Lynch vice president Pence and members of Congress?!? Really??!?

Oh wait. Yes. Yes you are.

PS you abject liar. Go ahead and cite some examples of all ghese Hollywood actors supposedly calling on President Trump to be killed. Go on! Are you seriously going to use Kathy Griffith's tasteless photo as your example? Or you going to post something by 1 or two c list-list never was or has been actors as if to claim the entire Boogeyman Hollywood establishment, let alone liberals as a whole, called for Trump's death? Surely that is completely comprable to the president of the United States himself calling on Congress to be taken over by force by a mob.

Put up, or admit you are a cowardly poltroon, sir!
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