Two Voices

[Josh/Devilman88]

Also you took that verse out of contexts. Go back and read the whole chapter. It is talking about offening people not people's sins.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

First of all its...

Matt 18: 15
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

We, since this forum is pretty anonymous, it is kind of far-fetched to claim I am subjecting Afleitch to public disgrace.  But in that regard, you are forgetting the very next verses:

Mat 18:16-17 But, if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'  17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

---

Secondly, give him a bible and tell him where to look. What he does with it is between him and God.

Considering Christ’s instructions were to “tell him” his fault and then to bring more witnesses along if he doesn’t listen, there is absolutely nothing wrong with spelling it out to him.  Obviously the point of the witnesses aren’t to hand him more earmarked bibles.

[adam]

The cross sounds like a self-centered prick and the crowd sounds like a party. Sorry Jesus, you lose again. Crowd.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Also you took that verse out of contexts. Go back and read the whole chapter. It is talking about offending people not people's sins.

I can’t believe you just said that, for someone who touts the King James, you certainly are very confused by its language.  Jesus is clearly talking about things that will send you to hell:

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

[Josh/Devilman88]

First of all its...

Matt 18: 15
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

We, since this forum is pretty anonymous, it is kind of far-fetched to claim I am subjecting Afleitch to public disgrace.  But in that regard, you are forgetting the very next verses:

Mat 18:16-17 But, if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'  17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

---

Secondly, give him a bible and tell him where to look. What he does with it is between him and God.

Considering Christ’s instructions were to “tell him” his fault and then to bring more witnesses along if he doesn’t listen, there is absolutely nothing wrong with spelling it out to him.  Obviously the point of the witnesses aren’t to hand him more earmarked bibles.

Did want to do this but oh well...

Matthew 18
 1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


This is talking about us " Christians" i.e. the little childern, and the people who offen us. Then go and talk to them between you and him. Then if he don't listen the go before few and talk to him. Then if he stills don't listen go before the church and tell.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The witnesses are there not for you to tell them what their sin, but what they offened you.

[Josh/Devilman88]

Also you took that verse out of contexts. Go back and read the whole chapter. It is talking about offending people not people's sins.

I can’t believe you just said that, for someone who touts the King James, you certainly are very confused by its language.  Jesus is clearly talking about things that will send you to hell:

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Offend means, in this case it is talking about causing you to sin. Also when it is talking about if someone offends you, it means done wrong againts you. I am not stupid. Like I said before, it is not talking about his sins he does in his life.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You see jmfcst. Josh gets it Unlike him, you don't want to reach any agreement. You do no bargaining and reach no agreement. You simply 'troll' the bible.

Josh "gets it"?  The man is incoherent!

Sorry, I don't bargain with the world (the Crowd).  I am not trying to reach agreement with the world.  Rather I am trying to snatch a few member of the Crowd away from the world and turn them to God.

[Josh/Devilman88]

You see jmfcst. Josh gets it Unlike him, you don't want to reach any agreement. You do no bargaining and reach no agreement. You simply 'troll' the bible.

Josh "gets it"?  The man is incoherent!

Sorry, I don't bargain with the world (the Crowd).  I am not trying to reach agreement with the world.  Rather I am trying to snatch a few member of the Crowd away from the world and turn them to God.

That is good, but you can't change someone unless they are willing to do so, a matter of fact our job is just to tell them and let the Holy Sprit do the rest. Thats why it is called planting a seed.

[minionofmidas]

The cross, duh. Hopefully you realizes that the crowd is the world i.e. devil, and the cross is Jesus.

They're both the same as far as I can tell.

[Josh/Devilman88]

The cross, duh. Hopefully you realizes that the crowd is the world i.e. devil, and the cross is Jesus.

They're both the same as far as I can tell.

[minionofmidas]

The cross, duh. Hopefully you realizes that the crowd is the world i.e. devil, and the cross is Jesus.

They're both the same as far as I can tell.

Not Jesus and the devil, but the two voices. Both are essentially crowd voices. You will have to transcend organized religion to find true spirituality.

[Josh/Devilman88]

The cross, duh. Hopefully you realizes that the crowd is the world i.e. devil, and the cross is Jesus.

They're both the same as far as I can tell.

Not Jesus and the devil, but the two voices. Both are essentially crowd voices. You will have to transcend organized religion to find true spirituality.

Ah, I get ya now.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

[Offend means, in this case it is talking about causing you to sin. Also when it is talking about if someone offends you, it means done wrong againts you. I am not stupid. Like I said before, it is not talking about his sins he does in his life.

I am going to say this very plainly:  In your case, for some reason, THE OLD ENGLISH OF THE KING JAMES VERSION IS INCOHERENT TO YOU, for even though Jesus was speaking about your foot and eye “enticing” you into sin, by the time he reaches 18:15, he is clearly speaking directly about “sin” itself and is NO LONGER EVEN USING THE SAME WORD.

The Greek word used in Mat 18:6, Mat 18:8, and Mat 18:9: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4624&version=kjv

Mt 18:6  
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mt 18:8  
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mt 18:9  
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

A DIFFERENT Greek word used in Mat 18:15 and Mat 18:21
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=mt&number=264&count=3&version=kjv

Mat 18:15  Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.  

Mt 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

---

Jesus’ instruction in Mat 18:22 to forgive others of their sins countless times is one of his most famous quotes, and it is UNIVERSALLY understood to be referring directly to sin and not simply enticement.

The word you're questioning in Mat 18:15 is the EXACT word used in Mat 18:21.  That same exact word is used 35 other times in the New Testament (see link above) and each and every time it is referring directly to sin itself.

[Josh/Devilman88]

What makes the NIV better then KJV?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

What makes the NIV better then KJV?

It's not, IMO the KJV is a more accurate translation (except for notable exceptions like "Easter" in Acts 12:4).

I really like the NKJV, but it would be a lot easier to read if it were in paragraph form and had subtitles like the NIV. 

[Alcon]

Neither the cross nor the crowd; I follow my mind because I do not trust my ears.

[Josh/Devilman88]

What makes the NIV better then KJV?

It's not, IMO the KJV is a more accurate translation (except for notable exceptions like "Easter" in Acts 12:4).

I really like the NKJV, but it would be a lot easier to read if it were in paragraph form and had subtitles like the NIV. 

It is not easier to read.

[Joe Republic]

Ahhh, a good ol' bible fight, just like the old days.

Jmfcst has always struck me as the kind of guy that not only would you not want to enjoy a beer with, but would be the guy who sits outside the bar screaming about how we should all be burned at the stake.

[Rob]

I proudly follow the crowd.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Jmfcst has always struck me as the kind of guy that not only would you not want to enjoy a beer with, but would be the guy who sits outside the bar screaming about how we should all be burned at the stake.

Actually, I just had two beers tonight.

[Nym90]

I certainly don't follow "the crowd" at all, but I'm not a Christian either. I believe firmly in God but in no particular religion. I am certainly more than open to arguments in favor of each, and am most certainly open to anything God himself may have to tell me about what he wants me to do or to believe. If it's critically important that I have a particular set of religious beliefs, I'm sure he'll let me know in a way that he knows I can and will understand. I used to be an agnostic, and changed my beliefs in the past due to this.

I most certainly do not base my actions or beliefs on what is popular with the world; I use my own logical brain which God has been gracious enough to give me to come up with my own positions, and if I see good evidence and reason to change my views, I do so.

[Josh/Devilman88]

Jmfcst has always struck me as the kind of guy that not only would you not want to enjoy a beer with, but would be the guy who sits outside the bar screaming about how we should all be burned at the stake.

Actually, I just had two beers tonight.

HAHA, ok now you can stop talking to me.

[Citizen James]

Well, there's always Matt 7:3-5, though I suppose in this case that giant redwood is near unmovable.

Of course, it is a free nation, and if someone wants to dogmatically follow the teachings of John Darby, ignoring centuries of history, culture, and theology they are free to do so.  As Jefferson once stated, it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.  (then again, if 'faith based' inititives are able to use the fungability of funds to support their evangelizing, I suppose it could be considered 'picking my pocket').

[MaC]

Both the cross and the crowd should shut the hell up.

[minionofmidas]

Ahhh, a good ol' bible fight, just like the old days.

Jmfcst has always struck me as the kind of guy that not only would you not want to enjoy a beer with, but would be the guy who sits outside the bar screaming about how we should all be burned at the stake.

Nah... that's what he does when he's had too many beers with us. j/k