Border communities with Canada

[mileslunn]

Canada is a fairly liberal country and there 82% wanted Biden to win, while current PM Justin Trudeau is very much a progressive even more so than Biden.  Even there Tories stuck in low 30s, similar to GOP in the bluest states like California and Massachusetts yet not nearly as right wing.  My question is how come so many communities right on border voted for Trump.  Wouldn't with many having friends on other side, getting lots of cross border shopping be heavily influenced.  While some close to border like Bellingham, Washington (which is 30 miles south but gets a lot of Canadian shoppers) and Point Roberts went heavily for Biden, a few examples of ones heavily for Trump are as follows:

Hyder, Alaska - An enclave and people buy most stuff in Stewart, BC
Sumas, Washington - Right on border
Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan
International Falls, Minnesota
Grosse Ile, Michigan - Just a stone throw away from Canada
Grand Island, New York - Also a stone throw away
Lewiston, New York - can shout across the river at neighbors
Derby Line, Vermont - Road runs right down the middle of border with people on south side of street in US, north side Canada
Fort Kent, Maine - Predominately French speaking
Most border communities in Vermont despite Biden winning state big and almost all border communities in Maine.
Fort Fairfield, Maine - Has golf course that straddles border.

I am not talking about border counties as understand if 30-40 miles south of border impact much less, I am talking about communities right on border.  I could see maybe in Prairies them going for Trump as those areas go massively Conservative and that was the one part of Canada where Trump is fairly popular (yes he trailed in every province, but probably led in Rural Alberta and trailed overall due to being disliked in Calgary and Edmonton where most live. 

True in other provinces many are Conservative ridings like Niagara Falls, Fort Fairfield, Maine; Sumas, Washington but as mentioned above those are much more moderate type conservatives who I doubt would vote for present GOP led by Trump even if they still go Conservative in Canada. 

[Frenchrepublican]

Canada is a fairly liberal country and there 82% wanted Biden to win, while current PM Justin Trudeau is very much a progressive even more so than Biden.  Even there Tories stuck in low 30s, similar to GOP in the bluest states like California and Massachusetts yet not nearly as right wing.  My question is how come so many communities right on border voted for Trump.  Wouldn't with many having friends on other side, getting lots of cross border shopping be heavily influenced.  While some close to border like Bellingham, Washington (which is 30 miles south but gets a lot of Canadian shoppers) and Point Roberts went heavily for Biden, a few examples of ones heavily for Trump are as follows:

Hyder, Alaska - An enclave and people buy most stuff in Stewart, BC
Sumas, Washington - Right on border
Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan
International Falls, Minnesota
Grosse Ile, Michigan - Just a stone throw away from Canada
Grand Island, New York - Also a stone throw away
Lewiston, New York - can shout across the river at neighbors
Derby Line, Vermont - Road runs right down the middle of border with people on south side of street in US, north side Canada
Fort Kent, Maine - Predominately French speaking
Most border communities in Vermont despite Biden winning state big and almost all border communities in Maine.
Fort Fairfield, Maine - Has golf course that straddles border.

I am not talking about border counties as understand if 30-40 miles south of border impact much less, I am talking about communities right on border.  I could see maybe in Prairies them going for Trump as those areas go massively Conservative and that was the one part of Canada where Trump is fairly popular (yes he trailed in every province, but probably led in Rural Alberta and trailed overall due to being disliked in Calgary and Edmonton where most live. 

True in other provinces many are Conservative ridings like Niagara Falls, Fort Fairfield, Maine; Sumas, Washington but as mentioned above those are much more moderate type conservatives who I doubt would vote for present GOP led by Trump even if they still go Conservative in Canada. 

It doesn't mean that Biden would have won 82% of the vote in Canada.
You have the same issue in France, when asked who they prefered as future US president, French people were more or less 85/15 for Biden. Still it doesn't mean that Biden would have won 85% of the vote in France had he been a French politician or that 85% of French are left wing, a matchup between a French version of Trump vs a French version of Biden would have probably being 65/35 for the French Biden, not 85/15, because in a such scenario French people would have voted on domestic issues rather than on the personallity of the two candidates.

[Bernie Derangement Syndrome Haver]

Being American - and the American political culture and education system - is what I think does it to these people. If the line was a bit further south and they were in Canada, there wouldn't be a discernible difference in voting patterns between these towns and the towns just north of them.

Being American immediately makes the average person dumber and more conservative compared to Canadians, as years of nationalistic, jingoistic American propaganda are drilled into their heads from a young age. This superiority complex also makes them less likely to care about human rights abroad, or even within their own country. And besides, despite all of Canada's systemic inequities, they are far worse in the United States.

Canadians are taught to be civil, caring, introspective, and overall just good people. Americans are taught that they can do no wrong. The education system in America is so poor that evolution is still a controversial subject to teach in public schools. And it's a more religious country, which also makes matters worse. The country is just extremely backwards, its citizens are on average extremely dumb, and they are the furthest thing from the beacon of Western civilization all the white supremacists there like to think they are.

Being American, therefore, automatically makes you a worse person, which is why it's in general a more conservative country than Canada.

[Frenchrepublican]

As for your question Biden lost International Falls by 10 (44/54) and lost Fort Kent by 3.5 (47/50.5)

[mileslunn]

As for your question Biden lost International Falls by 10 (44/54) and lost Fort Kent by 3.5 (47/50.5)

True, but other side of border, Tories cannot even win despite being more moderate.

[Bernie Derangement Syndrome Haver]

Btw, my comment was obviously very tongue in cheek and sarcastic, but I do think just the plain fact that those towns are American and America is a more conservative country is a big explainer of it.

[Kuumo]

Keep in mind that a lot of the communities on the Mexican border are populated with descendants of Mexicans who often still have relatives in Mexico while the vast majority of Americans living near the Canadian border are not descended from Canadian immigrants. A lot of the Republican swing in the Rio Grande Valley came from people who identify much more with generic Texan culture than with Mexican culture. People whose families have lived in the U.S. for generations are unlikely to think like or care much about people in foreign countries, even if one of those countries is right on their doorstep.

[super6646]

Being American - and the American political culture and education system - is what I think does it to these people. If the line was a bit further south and they were in Canada, there wouldn't be a discernible difference in voting patterns between these towns and the towns just north of them.

Being American immediately makes the average person dumber and more conservative compared to Canadians, as years of nationalistic, jingoistic American propaganda are drilled into their heads from a young age. This superiority complex also makes them less likely to care about human rights abroad, or even within their own country. And besides, despite all of Canada's systemic inequities, they are far worse in the United States.

Canadians are taught to be civil, caring, introspective, and overall just good people. Americans are taught that they can do no wrong. The education system in America is so poor that evolution is still a controversial subject to teach in public schools. And it's a more religious country, which also makes matters worse. The country is just extremely backwards, its citizens are on average extremely dumb, and they are the furthest thing from the beacon of Western civilization all the white supremacists there like to think they are.

Being American, therefore, automatically makes you a worse person, which is why it's in general a more conservative country than Canada.

This is just an awful post overall.

[lfromnj]

The French towns in Maine were very pro Obama , reaching up to 75% in some  areas  which was more D than Vermont was !.

[Donerail]

Canadians are taught to be civil, caring, introspective, and overall just good people.

I have been interacting with lots of Raptors fans on twitter over the last few days and I can assure you that this is not true.

[mileslunn]

The French towns in Maine were very pro Obama , reaching up to 75% in some  areas  which was more D than Vermont was !.

True, but they swung hard for Trump.  Biden won Madawaska, but Trump still got 44% there.  Interestingly enough, the Canadian riding across the border, Madawaska-Restigouche and provincial ridings in it have done exact opposite.  It was held by Tories at both levels, now solidly Liberal at both levels.  However, Fort Kent, I believe Romney got under 1/3, while Trump won it.

[Catalyst138]

Being American - and the American political culture and education system - is what I think does it to these people. If the line was a bit further south and they were in Canada, there wouldn't be a discernible difference in voting patterns between these towns and the towns just north of them.

Being American immediately makes the average person dumber and more conservative compared to Canadians, as years of nationalistic, jingoistic American propaganda are drilled into their heads from a young age. This superiority complex also makes them less likely to care about human rights abroad, or even within their own country. And besides, despite all of Canada's systemic inequities, they are far worse in the United States.

Canadians are taught to be civil, caring, introspective, and overall just good people. Americans are taught that they can do no wrong. The education system in America is so poor that evolution is still a controversial subject to teach in public schools. And it's a more religious country, which also makes matters worse. The country is just extremely backwards, its citizens are on average extremely dumb, and they are the furthest thing from the beacon of Western civilization all the white supremacists there like to think they are.

Being American, therefore, automatically makes you a worse person, which is why it's in general a more conservative country than Canada.

This is just an awful post overall.

I would agree, except he said it was sarcasm in his next post.

[mileslunn]

I could see how communities with say only 30 people along the border go heavily Trump as in those most likely people living there are all CBP and Border Patrol officers and their families and likely not originally from there.  I imagine most CBP and Border patrol officers voted for Trump.  However I would think places that rely a lot on cross border shopping would be more connected.  In Hyder, Alaska, its only 80 people and with no general grocery store, most go across border for shopping.  In fact most have friends on Canadian side so very connected.  Same with Derby Line, Vermont and many communities in New England bordering Canada.  Bellingham, Washington despite being 30 miles south has its economy based on Canadian shoppers and it voted heavily for Biden although also has a university so could be partially that.

Point Roberts, Washington for example is semi-rural and very white and relies a lot on Canadian tourists and it voted for Biden by almost 50 points.

[AGA]

Because they're mostly rural.

[super6646]

Being American - and the American political culture and education system - is what I think does it to these people. If the line was a bit further south and they were in Canada, there wouldn't be a discernible difference in voting patterns between these towns and the towns just north of them.

Being American immediately makes the average person dumber and more conservative compared to Canadians, as years of nationalistic, jingoistic American propaganda are drilled into their heads from a young age. This superiority complex also makes them less likely to care about human rights abroad, or even within their own country. And besides, despite all of Canada's systemic inequities, they are far worse in the United States.

Canadians are taught to be civil, caring, introspective, and overall just good people. Americans are taught that they can do no wrong. The education system in America is so poor that evolution is still a controversial subject to teach in public schools. And it's a more religious country, which also makes matters worse. The country is just extremely backwards, its citizens are on average extremely dumb, and they are the furthest thing from the beacon of Western civilization all the white supremacists there like to think they are.

Being American, therefore, automatically makes you a worse person, which is why it's in general a more conservative country than Canada.

This is just an awful post overall.

I would agree, except he said it was sarcasm in his next post.

Just saw that now.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

Old thread, but allow me to hijack it for one cool fact: border areas in Canada and the US actually share some political similarities, even if the Canadian side is almost always to the left of the American one.

You start out west on the left coast, and British Columbia has a similar political geography as Washington. The coastal area and Vancouver/Seattle areas are seen as a hotbed of progressive politics, while inland Washington and interior BC are much more conservative, but their conservatism often gets drowned out by the more populous coast.

Alberta is very conservative, much like the northern mountain states like Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho. But it's not primarily Bible-thumping conservatism like the deep south (though it exists somewhat), it's more "the feds should leave us alone and let us run our own area" conservatism.

Saskatchewan is similar to the Dakotas. Heavily agricultural with more recent resource development. Used to be home to an "agrarian left" kind of politics, but has drifted heavily to the right in the past few decades.

Manitoba can be thought of as Minnesota. The agrarian areas used to have that prairie left politics and are now quite conservative, although not as conservative or anti-federal government as the further west states/provinces. Majority of the population lives in one major metropolitan area which is more to the left, but not hard-left.

Ontario is too big to be analogous across the border, but the industrial cities of SW Ontario have a similar political culture as the rust belt cities. The border cities of Windsor and Detroit are both heavily left-wing (NDP/Democrat). Some of the smaller, run-down postindustrial cities like Sarnia used to lean left, but in recent years has trended hard to the right. Toronto is a bit like Chicago politically, the cities themselves are quite left-wing, but the massive suburban belt can go either way, and end up deciding how the whole state/province votes.

Quebec can't be used in this analogy, it really is a distinct society. I guess there's similarity to the French-Canadian minority in New England, but Quebec's political culture is more similar to Europe than North America.

The maritime provinces are a bit like upper New England plus Boston (Halifax). Historically important, mostly populated by people from the British Isles (with a significant French minority), and a bit of a "Red Tory" political culture that can be receptive to moderate conservatism (and historically was the hotbed of it), but these days tends to prefer liberals.

[mileslunn]

Old thread, but allow me to hijack it for one cool fact: border areas in Canada and the US actually share some political similarities, even if the Canadian side is almost always to the left of the American one.

You start out west on the left coast, and British Columbia has a similar political geography as Washington. The coastal area and Vancouver/Seattle areas are seen as a hotbed of progressive politics, while inland Washington and interior BC are much more conservative, but their conservatism often gets drowned out by the more populous coast.

Alberta is very conservative, much like the northern mountain states like Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho. But it's not primarily Bible-thumping conservatism like the deep south (though it exists somewhat), it's more "the feds should leave us alone and let us run our own area" conservatism.

Saskatchewan is similar to the Dakotas. Heavily agricultural with more recent resource development. Used to be home to an "agrarian left" kind of politics, but has drifted heavily to the right in the past few decades.

Manitoba can be thought of as Minnesota. The agrarian areas used to have that prairie left politics and are now quite conservative, although not as conservative or anti-federal government as the further west states/provinces. Majority of the population lives in one major metropolitan area which is more to the left, but not hard-left.

Ontario is too big to be analogous across the border, but the industrial cities of SW Ontario have a similar political culture as the rust belt cities. The border cities of Windsor and Detroit are both heavily left-wing (NDP/Democrat). Some of the smaller, run-down postindustrial cities like Sarnia used to lean left, but in recent years has trended hard to the right. Toronto is a bit like Chicago politically, the cities themselves are quite left-wing, but the massive suburban belt can go either way, and end up deciding how the whole state/province votes.

Quebec can't be used in this analogy, it really is a distinct society. I guess there's similarity to the French-Canadian minority in New England, but Quebec's political culture is more similar to Europe than North America.

The maritime provinces are a bit like upper New England plus Boston (Halifax). Historically important, mostly populated by people from the British Isles (with a significant French minority), and a bit of a "Red Tory" political culture that can be receptive to moderate conservatism (and historically was the hotbed of it), but these days tends to prefer liberals.

I would further add the following:

Starting in BC, under Harper Tories won all border ridings.  While Point Roberts strongly Democrat, Tswwassen on other side fairly conservative.  Yes Delta went Liberal, but largely due to strong support in North Delta which is more densely populated and diverse.  Tsswwassen is very much your white suburban married family type community.

Fraser Valley used to be quite conservative on both sides, but due to high housing prices, its become more competitive on Canadian side although only in last few years while on US side no such shift.

Southern Saskatchewan and Southern Manitoba were actually always Conservative, it was more central rural areas that used to go NDP but have swung right.

Northern Ontario unlike the American side still votes NDP/Liberal, it hasn't swung right like Upper Peninsula of Michigan which used to vote Democrat but now GOP.  Iron Range of Minnesota still goes Democrat but not by the margins it did in past.  Sarnia and Port Huron both have swung right as mentioned.

Windsor and Detroit may both lean left, but I think for very different reasons.  Detroit is over 80% African-American while Windsor large union movement.  Detroit suburbs are a mix, but white collar have trended Democrat while GOP still competitive in white blue collar ones.  Windsor doesn't have same degree of suburbs as Detroit does although Essex tends to although not always go Conservative, but its a lot more rural than Macomb or Oakland County.  Its more akin to Monroe County.

Niagara Falls are analogous but Niagara on the Lake lots of seniors so in past quite conservative but many urban boomer retirees moving there so changing while Lewiston more blue collar small town.  Fort Erie is more like Buffalo suburbs, blue collar so trending right while Buffalo large city and large African-American population unlike Canadian side.

In Eastern Ontario/North Country New York fairly conservative although both have swung rightwards over past 20 years.  Stormont-Dundas-South Glengarry was once a solid Liberal riding now solid Tory, while on New York side New York 21st and border counties as recently as Obama 2012 went Democrat, but have really swung right under Trump.

For Maine, northern part fascinating as Obama did well in border towns, but swung hard towards Trump while Madawaska county voted Conservative a decade ago but has swung hard towards Liberals.  Along Saint John River Valley, its quite conservative on both sides.  Tobique-Mactaquac and New Brunswick Southwest way more conservative than most of Atlantic Canada.  Harper almost held those two in 2015 disaster while Scheer despite poor showing in Atlantic Canada won both by over 20 points.  Large Baptist population on Canadian side so more conservative than rest of Atlantic Canada.  Maine may be a blue state, but its coastal parts furthest from border where Democrats are strongest.  There you have lots of New York city and Boston transplants while areas near Canadian border are mostly older rural white without a college degree thus voting for Trump. 

[VPH]

The French towns in Maine were very pro Obama , reaching up to 75% in some  areas  which was more D than Vermont was !.

True, but they swung hard for Trump.  Biden won Madawaska, but Trump still got 44% there.  Interestingly enough, the Canadian riding across the border, Madawaska-Restigouche and provincial ridings in it have done exact opposite.  It was held by Tories at both levels, now solidly Liberal at both levels.  However, Fort Kent, I believe Romney got under 1/3, while Trump won it.

While there are certainly demographic and economic similarities, the fault lines in both countries' politics line up in different ways. I struggle to explain otherwise why places like Northern Maine vs Madawaska-Restigouche behave so differently. Or Sault Ste Marie on one side voting for Trump but on the other giving 66% total to left-leaning parties. My guess is places like Northern Ontario still vote for the center-left and even left-wing due in part to the lower salience of certain hot button cultural issues than in the US--guns, abortion, etc. Plus unions are also much stronger in these regions and shape political identities more than in the Iron Range. Another example of different issues mattering: even if Northern Maine towns speak French, that doesn't matter so much politically in the US. While in Canada, it's been a point of difficulty for the Conservative Party to reach out to Francophone voters in recent decades.

That said, you do see broader trends on both sides as others have noted. Rural parts of SK and MB have shifted rightward much like rural parts of SD and ND have in the US. Smaller Ontario cities like Sarnia have gone the way of Port Huron or Bay City. Sydney Nova Scotia's rightward lurch has mirrored coal mining regions in the US, albeit quite a bit later.

[mileslunn]

The French towns in Maine were very pro Obama , reaching up to 75% in some  areas  which was more D than Vermont was !.

True, but they swung hard for Trump.  Biden won Madawaska, but Trump still got 44% there.  Interestingly enough, the Canadian riding across the border, Madawaska-Restigouche and provincial ridings in it have done exact opposite.  It was held by Tories at both levels, now solidly Liberal at both levels.  However, Fort Kent, I believe Romney got under 1/3, while Trump won it.

While there are certainly demographic and economic similarities, the fault lines in both countries' politics line up in different ways. I struggle to explain otherwise why places like Northern Maine vs Madawaska-Restigouche behave so differently. Or Sault Ste Marie on one side voting for Trump but on the other giving 66% total to left-leaning parties. My guess is places like Northern Ontario still vote for the center-left and even left-wing due in part to the lower salience of certain hot button cultural issues than in the US--guns, abortion, etc. Plus unions are also much stronger in these regions and shape political identities more than in the Iron Range. Another example of different issues mattering: even if Northern Maine towns speak French, that doesn't matter so much politically in the US. While in Canada, it's been a point of difficulty for the Conservative Party to reach out to Francophone voters in recent decades.

That said, you do see broader trends on both sides as others have noted. Rural parts of SK and MB have shifted rightward much like rural parts of SD and ND have in the US. Smaller Ontario cities like Sarnia have gone the way of Port Huron or Bay City. Sydney Nova Scotia's rightward lurch has mirrored coal mining regions in the US, albeit quite a bit later.

Its true in Canada union movement much stronger and also I think class despite being much more equal still plays a bigger role in voting although diminishing but a bit behind US.  As for Northern Maine vs. Madawaska county you are right on language.  Number of Americans who are French speaking is pretty small so no one realistically expects government to provide service in French whereas in Canada it is a large part of the population and generally Liberals have been bigger supporters of bilingualism and linguistic minorities than Tories (English speakers in Quebec vote heavily Liberal for same reason).

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

The French towns in Maine were very pro Obama , reaching up to 75% in some  areas  which was more D than Vermont was !.

True, but they swung hard for Trump.  Biden won Madawaska, but Trump still got 44% there.  Interestingly enough, the Canadian riding across the border, Madawaska-Restigouche and provincial ridings in it have done exact opposite.  It was held by Tories at both levels, now solidly Liberal at both levels.  However, Fort Kent, I believe Romney got under 1/3, while Trump won it.

While there are certainly demographic and economic similarities, the fault lines in both countries' politics line up in different ways. I struggle to explain otherwise why places like Northern Maine vs Madawaska-Restigouche behave so differently. Or Sault Ste Marie on one side voting for Trump but on the other giving 66% total to left-leaning parties. My guess is places like Northern Ontario still vote for the center-left and even left-wing due in part to the lower salience of certain hot button cultural issues than in the US--guns, abortion, etc. Plus unions are also much stronger in these regions and shape political identities more than in the Iron Range. Another example of different issues mattering: even if Northern Maine towns speak French, that doesn't matter so much politically in the US. While in Canada, it's been a point of difficulty for the Conservative Party to reach out to Francophone voters in recent decades.

That said, you do see broader trends on both sides as others have noted. Rural parts of SK and MB have shifted rightward much like rural parts of SD and ND have in the US. Smaller Ontario cities like Sarnia have gone the way of Port Huron or Bay City. Sydney Nova Scotia's rightward lurch has mirrored coal mining regions in the US, albeit quite a bit later.

On that Sault Ste Marie point, I think a big difference is that US politics these days is much more nationalized and Canadian more localized/regionalized, which is interesting because technically Canada is supposed to be the more unitary country and the US more federal. Far as I can tell, the Liberal/NDP voters in Northern Ontario are culturally much more similar to Conservative voters in Saskatchewan than Liberal/NDP voters in Toronto. But regional identity plays a really big part in party preference here.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I could see how communities with say only 30 people along the border go heavily Trump as in those most likely people living there are all CBP and Border Patrol officers and their families and likely not originally from there.  I imagine most CBP and Border patrol officers voted for Trump.  However I would think places that rely a lot on cross border shopping would be more connected.  In Hyder, Alaska, its only 80 people and with no general grocery store, most go across border for shopping.  In fact most have friends on Canadian side so very connected.  Same with Derby Line, Vermont and many communities in New England bordering Canada.  Bellingham, Washington despite being 30 miles south has its economy based on Canadian shoppers and it voted heavily for Biden although also has a university so could be partially that.

Point Roberts, Washington for example is semi-rural and very white and relies a lot on Canadian tourists and it voted for Biden by almost 50 points.

Hyder has no border control, so that's not a reason for them.