Atlasia-India Free Trade Bill

[MasterJedi]

Atlasia-India Free Trade Bill


1. No tariffs, customs, or restrictions on movement of goods, except those that have been outlawed by the destination or interim nation, shall exist between the Republic of Atlasia and India.
2. The President and other officers of the Atlasian Government shall take such actions as may be necessary to implement the provisions of this act.
__________________________________________________________

Sponsor: Sen. MasterJedi

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

We can look forward to this doubling Atlasian unemployment.

[jerusalemcar5]

We can look forward to this doubling Atlasian unemployment.

You shouldn't underestimate BRTD.  Triple would be on the low end since this country is taking the vast majority of our jobs it appears we simply want to increase it.

[Speed of Sound]

Free Trade Bill. I rest my case, again.

[Democratic Hawk]

While there are aspects of Indian society, which I find utterly abhorrant (yes, the caste system which is worse than either Jim Crow or Apartheid ever was), India is an important strategic ally of Atlasia given it may prove a bulwark against bubbling Islamism in Pakistan and possible Chinese aspirations, this Bill will not be subject to my amendment

Nevertheless, India has made significant progress - though rural India lags far behind urban India - and it has been consistently a democracy since independence from Britain

However, should this Bill pass and be signed into Law, and it does have a detrimental impact on Atlasian jobs and living standards then I would not hesitate to introduce protectionist measures

Naturally, I hope economic and political liberalisation, ultimately, raises Indian living standards. Free trade should be about levelling their standards to ours not reducing ours to theirs. It should be mutually beneficial to both economies

'Hawk'

[jerusalemcar5]

While there are aspects of Indian society, which I find utterly abhorrant (yes, the caste system which is worse than either Jim Crow or Apartheid ever was)

Calling their religion abhorrent isn't exactly appropriate and you have no right to say it.  I don't call the Bible abhorrent on the Senate floor regardless of my personal opinions.

Naturally, I hope economic and political liberalisation, ultimately, raises Indian living standards. Free trade should be about levelling their standards to ours not reducing ours to theirs. It should be mutually beneficial to both economies

'Hawk'

Holy crap.  Sometimes you say things I disagree with, but this is just...Oh I don't know pick one:Shocking, horrific, terrifying, unbearably unsettling, disgraceful, etc.

How would free trade increase their standards? Please, the Senate passes free trade bill after free trade bill and I am not understanding how.  I have found many of these bills to be bad moves in the long run economic front, but this will be very bad.  I am sure you our aware many Atlasian jobs have gone overseas to India, even though some of the goods made their have tariffs over here, it is still better there due to their abyssmal child labor laws (they depend on it).  Without tariffs, there would be a flood.  The economic opportunities companies would have there!  What does this Senate care if tens of million of Indian children are the expense?  We want our cheap Wal-Mart (and other stores) goods!

[Speed of Sound]

Please, the Senate passes free trade bill after free trade bill and I am not understanding how.

Dont look at me.

[Democratic Hawk]

While there are aspects of Indian society, which I find utterly abhorrant (yes, the caste system which is worse than either Jim Crow or Apartheid ever was)

Calling their religion abhorrent isn't exactly appropriate and you have no right to say it.  I don't call the Bible abhorrent on the Senate floor regardless of my personal opinions.

But the caste system is abhorrent, especially when you consider that to this day there remains, especially in rural areas, discrimination and persecution towards the Harijans or Dalits, or what we in the West commonly know as 'Untouchables'. Nevertheless, the great man himself, Mahatma Gandhi sought to eradicate this 'untouchability', so much so it was adopted as policy by the Indian National Congress and, upon independence, it was officially abolished. Certainly progress has been made and a testament to that is the fact that a Dalit was recently President of India

You are the last person, I'd have thought would defend untouchability. Furthermore, don't you ever tell me what I can or cannot say

Naturally, I hope economic and political liberalisation, ultimately, raises Indian living standards. Free trade should be about levelling their standards to ours not reducing ours to theirs. It should be mutually beneficial to both economies

'Hawk'

Holy crap.  Sometimes you say things I disagree with, but this is just...Oh I don't know pick one:Shocking, horrific, terrifying, unbearably unsettling, disgraceful, etc.

How would free trade increase their standards? Please, the Senate passes free trade bill after free trade bill and I am not understanding how.  I have found many of these bills to be bad moves in the long run economic front, but this will be very bad.  I am sure you our aware many Atlasian jobs have gone overseas to India, even though some of the goods made their have tariffs over here, it is still better there due to their abyssmal child labor laws (they depend on it).  Without tariffs, there would be a flood.  The economic opportunities companies would have there!  What does this Senate care if tens of million of Indian children are the expense?  We want our cheap Wal-Mart (and other stores) goods!

I anticipate over the long term that progress will be made in India as regards its labor laws. Hopefully, labor unions will clamour for improved pay and conditions. Labor unions are a powerful catalyst for progressive social change

'Hawk'

[Ebowed]

I must say that I do not support hiding condemnation of certain aspects of religious systems if such condemnation is warranted in the name of political correctness.  Certainly none of us would have defended, say, polygamy in the 1850s solely because it was encouraged by the Mormon religion.  Surely the same standard should be applied to the caste system, which is abhorrent regardless of its connection to any religions.

[jerusalemcar5]

While there are aspects of Indian society, which I find utterly abhorrant (yes, the caste system which is worse than either Jim Crow or Apartheid ever was)

Calling their religion abhorrent isn't exactly appropriate and you have no right to say it.  I don't call the Bible abhorrent on the Senate floor regardless of my personal opinions.

But the caste system is abhorrent, especially when you consider that to this day there remains, especially in rural areas, discrimination and persecution towards the Harijans or Dalits, or what we in the West commonly know as 'Untouchables'. Nevertheless, the great man himself, Mahatma Gandhi sought to eradicate this 'untouchability', so much so it was adopted as policy by the Indian National Congress and, upon independence, it was officially abolished. Certainly progress has been made and a testament to that is the fact that a Dalit was recently President of India

You are the last person, I'd have thought would defend untouchability. Furthermore, don't you ever tell me what I can or cannot say

Naturally, I hope economic and political liberalisation, ultimately, raises Indian living standards. Free trade should be about levelling their standards to ours not reducing ours to theirs. It should be mutually beneficial to both economies

'Hawk'

Holy crap.  Sometimes you say things I disagree with, but this is just...Oh I don't know pick one:Shocking, horrific, terrifying, unbearably unsettling, disgraceful, etc.

How would free trade increase their standards? Please, the Senate passes free trade bill after free trade bill and I am not understanding how.  I have found many of these bills to be bad moves in the long run economic front, but this will be very bad.  I am sure you our aware many Atlasian jobs have gone overseas to India, even though some of the goods made their have tariffs over here, it is still better there due to their abyssmal child labor laws (they depend on it).  Without tariffs, there would be a flood.  The economic opportunities companies would have there!  What does this Senate care if tens of million of Indian children are the expense?  We want our cheap Wal-Mart (and other stores) goods!

I anticipate over the long term that progress will be made in India as regards its labor laws. Hopefully, labor unions will clamour for improved pay and conditions. Labor unions are a powerful catalyst for progressive social change

'Hawk'

Well once they do that, why don't we pass a free trade bill?  Giving it to them now would prevent such changes because it would increase the poriftability of exploiting workers in the country.  We should wait until as you said hopefully unions and others will bring about social change that makes their economy similar to ours.

[Virginian87]

Gentlemen of the Senate-

We have passed several bills to the President regarding free trade with other countries, such as Singapore and New Zealand.  But on almost all those occasions, the countries we dealt with were mostly prosperous whose labor laws and business practices were either similar to our own or else more stringent.  This is certainly not the case with India. 

India may be a democracy and a crucial Atlasian ally in South Asia, but its labor laws are extremely lax.  The minimum wage in India is only a fraction of that in Atlasia, and we can easily expect Atlasian corporations to take advantage of those laws to export more and more Atlasian-based services to the subcontinent.  These moves would ultimately lead to a dramatic increase in unemployment among Atlasian workers. 

This also doesn't just apply to blue-collar workers.  No, white-collar workers would be impacted by this just as much as the average Joe.  Recently, such prominent Atlasian companies as General Electric and United Technologies have begun opening research centers in Bangalore and Bombay.  Other corporations have moved customer support services over to India as well, eliminating the jobs of the American workers.  So you see, my fellow Senators, it is not just the blue-collar workers and the unions here in Atlasia that would be affected by the passsing of this bill. 

While I wish to see the Atlasian economy grow, I would also like to see our country prosper without suffering major losses to our workforce.  There must be a better way, gentlemen.  I have no support for this bill.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

white-collar workers would be impacted by this just as much as the average Joe.  Recently, such prominent Atlasian companies as General Electric and United Technologies have begun opening research centers in Bangalore and Bombay.  Other corporations have moved customer support services over to India as well, eliminating the jobs of the American workers.  So you see, my fellow Senators, it is not just the blue-collar workers and the unions here in Atlasia that would be affected by the passsing of this bill. 

The Mideast Executive is of the opinion that this is a good thing; why should we only care if white collar workers lose there jobs? Don't blue collar workers earn less, work harder and live on tighter margins than white collar workers? Don't they also find it harder to find new work if they lose their jobs?

And wouldn't an increase of well-paid jobs be better for the future development of India than yet more low-skilled, low-paid and high-risk jobs?

[jerusalemcar5]

The Mideast Executive is of the opinion that this is a good thing; why should we only care if white collar workers lose there jobs? Don't blue collar workers earn less, work harder and live on tighter margins than white collar workers? Don't they also find it harder to find new work if they lose their jobs?

And wouldn't an increase of well-paid jobs be better for the future development of India than yet more low-skilled, low-paid and high-risk jobs?

You have correctly stated why India would abolish our tariffs on them, but this is the Atlasian Senate.

[Democratic Hawk]

I'm waiting to hear from the Secretary of State as to his thoughts on this Bill before proceeding with a possible amendment. I must say that unlike with Australia, New Zealand and Israel I have reservations about free trade with India and we should proceed with caution

Also as regards the other free trade legislation with Morocco, Singapore and Bahrain, I supported these too but only because they were subject to my amendment given that they have a dubious, at best, and appalling, at worst, human rights record. My core conviction, that free trade, and economic liberalisation, should be linked to political liberalisation and with it liberal democracy, political freedoms and civil rights, stands

Of course, instrinsically linked to such notions of political liberalisation is the right of the workforce to belong to free and recognised labor unions. Labor unions can be a powerful catalyst for progressive social change as a means of raising living standards to a more morally acceptable level

Although I remain a committed free trader, it is important that I remain a principled one. And I've stated loud and clear, that I believe free trade should be a means of realising 'universal' prosperity. Furthermore, I've stated loud and clear that should free trade ever have a negative impact on Atlasian jobs and living standards that I wouldn't think twice about introducing protectionist measures if the equilibrium is significantly stacked against us. Indeed, it was my original intent that free trade agreements should only be considered with those countries, whose labor laws and socio-economic conditions compared favorably with our own; however, on reflection, this would have ruled out just about everyone beyond Canada,  Australia, New Zealand and the European Union, so in effect, most of Africa and Asia wouldn't have had a look in and, in the grand scheme of things, this would have defeated the object

Indeed, my learned colleague and fellow Christian Democrat, Senator Virginian 87, has raised a number of concerns, which I believe it is vital that we address. Furthermore, free trade with Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Morocco, Singapore and  Bahrain is one thing, India, however, is quite another given its sheer size. Indeed, I have criticised Thailand's use of child labor and, it is partially on these grounds, that I have introduced my amendment to that Bill

Let's make one thing clear, child labor is exploitation and there is no getting away from that fact. Personally, all children, the world over, should be in school receiving a good education not working for some pittance in sweat shops

Nevertheless, India is, indeed, strategically important to Atlasia given bubbling Islamism in Pakistan and possible aspirations on the part of China and as a free trader (albeit one who would like to play on a level playing field so that Atlasia does not lose out), I remain committed in principle to this Bill but I'm seriously minded to table an amendment that would seek to address the concerns, which the senator has raised. It is my intention to proceed with caution on this Bill

'Hawk'

[afleitch]

I'm waiting to hear from the Secretary of State as to his thoughts on this Bill before proceeding with a possible amendment.

Thank you Senator. I will, later on today lay out my position on the bill. For now I can say I am concerned that an economic snub to the words largest democracy could, in my mind, turn out to be a diplomatic nightmare. We need to keep India on side. I would support any justifiable amendment that can keep this bill from falling, even if it results in more restricted or conditional free trade than I personally would have liked.

[jerusalemcar5]

Nevertheless, India is, indeed, strategically important to Atlasia given bubbling Islamism in Pakistan and possible aspirations on the part of China and as a free trader (albeit one who would like to play on a level playing field so that Atlasia does not lose out), I remain committed in principle to this Bill but I'm seriously minded to table an amendment that would seek to address the concerns, which the senator has raised.

'Hawk'

I disagree here.  I think our alliance in Pakistan is far more important for quelling Islam in the country than boosting an alliance with India by offering them free trade and not Pakistan.  In fact, I think free trade with India would only anger Islamists and our allies in government and would be devastating to our cause.  As for China, I think India has been doing very well against China without any of our help.  I would hope this may lead to workers rights for the Indian people.  However, it has not as of yet.  I would also be shocked if India eliminated its tariffs on our goods since it would only help India to develop if those tariffs stood in place, further hurting Atlasia. 

[afleitch]

I don't have to say as much as I was prepared to earlier as those in support of this bill have pretty much made the case for it as clear as possible.

In response to Jerusalemcar's point, while it is important we main a heathly if uncomfortable relationship with Musharraf it has to be stressed that Pakistan is no where as near as economically and politically advanced as India. I can understand that India's strongthening economy and service sector may be seen as a threat to Atlasian economic interests, but to suggest that India is managing just fine with its relationship to China is naive. Tensions between the two nations are still in existance but they have been suspended as both nations need stability in order to help their economies flourish. If one country undergoes an economic downturn this haphazard 'pact' is shattered.

If these two nations ever go to war, it will be over economic issues or issues in realtion to economics such as energy, water and so forth. Therefore we have to be very careful in how we handle economics and trade in this region. China may be a trading parter, but she can never be as strong and as genuine a friend to us both militaily and politically as India is.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Just thinking but a compromise might be to leave tariffs and so on, on manufactured goods only.

[jerusalemcar5]

Just thinking but a compromise might be to leave tariffs and so on, on manufactured goods only.

Or we could just leave it how it is since it is working quite well now.

I don't believe that it is necessary to instate free trade to better our friendship with them.  I think there are several other ways we can do this.

[Democratic Hawk]

Just thinking but a compromise might be to leave tariffs and so on, on manufactured goods only.

Existing, and other, potential free trade agreements don't concern me as much as this one for the reasons some of my learned colleagues have cited. Naturally, I sincerely hope that free trade agreements work to the mutual benefit of both Atlasia and India, and all other nations party to free trade agreements for that matter

Since India is a democracy and the trend is that it's human rights record will improve of its own volition. The excesses of the caste system are slowly but steadily diminishing, how else would a Dalit have served as President? Still, India needs to be watched closely should the Hindu-chauvinistic BJP ever regain power. Therefore, I don't think my amendment as it stands is quite appropriate

However, I'm minded to agree with Al that tariffs might be a reasonable compromise. This in itself would be a stick and carrot approach to free trade with India, for example, as labor laws, wages improve, and the use of child labor diminishes we could then consider reducing tariffs phase by phase with a view to eliminating them altogether. Atlasia will be sending a message loud and clear that such practices are unacceptable, and as long they remain, or until such time as the situation improves, tariffs on manufactured goods stand

Nevertheless, I reaffirm my commitment to free trade with India in principle but the ball will be in their court as to when total free trade between India and Atlasia will become the desired goal

I'll await comments from other senators before proceeding with such an amendment, which would raise tariffs on manufactured goods being imported from India. We must endeavour to look after the interests of the Atlasian producer as much as we do the Atlasian consumer but, even then, its a balancing act

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

Nevertheless, India is, indeed, strategically important to Atlasia given bubbling Islamism in Pakistan and possible aspirations on the part of China and as a free trader (albeit one who would like to play on a level playing field so that Atlasia does not lose out), I remain committed in principle to this Bill but I'm seriously minded to table an amendment that would seek to address the concerns, which the senator has raised.

'Hawk'

I disagree here.  I think our alliance in Pakistan is far more important for quelling Islam in the country than boosting an alliance with India by offering them free trade and not Pakistan.  In fact, I think free trade with India would only anger Islamists and our allies in government and would be devastating to our cause

If free trade were ever to be considered with Pakistan then it will be subject to my usual amendment. Furthermore, we should under no circumstances allow any nation, friend or foe, to dictate our trading policies

Indeed, I most sincerely hope that relations betweem India and Pakistan continue to make good progress. Both are of strategic importance to Atlasia and we should endeavour to encourage, and support, that 'rapproachement' in the interests of, regional and global, security

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

I'm still awaiting more feedback from senators and, indeed, others on what I have said in response to Mideast Governor's suggestion of a compromise, which would be greatly appreciated. I'm minded now that if this Bill is to succeed, a compromise must be reached

Nevertheless, I intend to introduce such an amendment to this Bill around 13.00 EDT. Basically, it will be a 'limited' free trade Bill which will raise tariffs on manufactured goods only

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

I, hereby, propose the following amendment:

1. No tariffs with the exception of manufactured goods only , customs, or restrictions on movement of goods, except those that have been outlawed by the destination or interim nation, shall exist between the Republic of Atlasia and India.
2. The following tariffs will apply to the following manufactured goods:
i. High-technological products and non-technological manufactured goods valued at over $500 shall be subject to an ad valorem tariff of 10% [i.e. a fixed % of the value of the good that is being imported].
ii. High-technological products and non-technological manufacturing products valued at $500 or under and non-technological products shall be subject to an ad valorem tariff of 20% [i.e. a fixed % of the value of the good that is being imported] .
3. The President and other officers of the Atlasian Government shall take such actions as may be necessary to implement the provisions of this act.
4. This Agreement requires a commitment on the part of India to make progress in improving pay and working conditions; and taking steps to reduce, and ultimately, abolish, exploitative child labor practices. This will be monitored by the Secretary of State. Should he determine that India is making steady progress in fulfilling these commitments then he shall request that the Senate
either reduce, or abolish, such tariffs as stipulated in Section 2 Clauses i. and ii. of this Act; however, should he determine that pay and working conditions ever deteriorate and exploitative child labor practices ever increase, then he shall request that the Senate either increase such tariffs as stipulated in Section 2 Clauses i. and ii. of this Act, or extend beyond manufactured goods as stipulated in Section 1. 

'Hawk'

[Virginian87]

I would be in favor of the amendment.  It addresses working conditions in India and establishes an committment on part of Indian employers to improve them.  More importantly, it puts a tariff on selected manufactured goods, which would minimize any pain that this would inflict on the Atlasian worker. 

The only qualm I have with the amendment is that it does not seem to address the problem of white-collar jobs that are moving overseas.  I suppose that issue should be covered in another bill, since the flow of these jobs and services is not directly caused by free trade.

[Democratic Hawk]

I would be in favor of the amendment.  It addresses working conditions in India and establishes an committment on part of Indian employers to improve them.  More importantly, it puts a tariff on selected manufactured goods, which would minimize any pain that this would inflict on the Atlasian worker. 

I'm glad my amendment meets with your approval

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Yes, I believe the problem of white-collar jobs being moved overseas is an issue, which can, and, more importantly, should, be addressed with other appropriate legislation

'Hawk'