France issues new set of rules for Muslim Leaders

[lfromnj]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55001167
wow this is crazy!

Children have ID numbers etc.

The measures include a wide-ranging bill that seeks to prevent radicalisation. It was unveiled on Wednesday, and includes measures such as:

Restrictions on home-schooling and harsher punishments for those who intimidate public officials on religious grounds
Giving children an identification number under the law that would be used to ensure they are attending school. Parents who break the law could face up to six months in jail as well as large fines
A ban on sharing the personal information of a person in a way that allows them to be located by people who want to harm them

[NewYorkExpress]

First they came for the Muslims. I did not speak out, because I was not a Muslim.

Then they came for the Jews. I did not speak out, because I was not Jewish.

Then they came for me.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Macron going full heel in 2.2 seconds was...unexpected.

The mainstream two parties need to get their crap together.

[PSOL]

Can someone tell me the differences between Le Pen and Macron?

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

As someone’s whose always leaned towards action when it comes to dealing with Islamic Terrorism, I really don’t have a problem with most of this, although the ‘ID Numbers’ thing is bad branding from an American perspective, the concept of banning religious homeschooling is a good one when it leads to the kind of radical indoctrination we’ve seen in European countries.

I say this as someone who was religiously homeschooled, and would never do the same to my children or endorse it for any child.

French Muslims can assimilate to a pluralistic and secular society or leave.

[Santander]

First they came for the Muslims. I did not speak out, because I was not a Muslim.

Then they came for the Jews. I did not speak out, because I was not Jewish.

Then they came for me.

First they came after us. So we went after them.

[warandwar]

First they came for the Muslims. I did not speak out, because I was not a Muslim.

Then they came for the Jews. I did not speak out, because I was not Jewish.

Then they came for me.

First they came after us. So we went after them.

and then we won the Algerian War of Independence

[Dr. MB]

Remember when every woke lib was salivating over him?

[Santander]

Remember when every woke lib was salivating over him?

I still do.

[Horus]

I have no problem with more limits on homeschooling but I have a major problem with those limits being directed only at Muslims. While it may be true in France that most homeschoolers are Muslim, this still could've been worded in such a way as to not attack said group. Christian and Jewish homeschooling is just as bad, in a perfect country there would be no homeschooling at all.

[Battista Minola 1616]

Macronism = Woke Fortuynism

[Former President tack50]

Judging from the snipped lfromnj has posted these seem all common sense and fairly common things in Europe (even though for American red avatars they'd be unthinkable)

A homeschool ban is a fairly common thing to do and certainly something up for debate, even if you remove the religious arguments

The ban on sharing personal information to people who will then use it to harm others seem common sense to me.

And mandatory ID numbers, while I imagine they will be unthinkable for Americans, are a fairly common thing in Europe for adults and even teenagers. Indeed I would imagine that most kids already have ID cards. So making them mandatory isn't too big of a stretch.

For example, here in Spain everyone has to get a mandatory state issued ID card and ID number from age 14 (8 digits and 1 letter). I guess France will just force people to get one of those, but from a very young age. This is something far from unheard of in Europe.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

There is a weird mirror for this in french history with the whole Civil Constitution for the Clergy during the revolution. If course, that didn't end up a spectacular idea in the end.

The issue at hand is that france is trying to have it two ways at once: strict separation of church and state is one thing, but state-owned boards that regulate a religion's bureaucracy is another. Germany can get away with it, as can the UK, but France really starts looking hypocritical if it starts acting as a religious leader.

[CumbrianLefty]

Can someone tell me the differences between Le Pen and Macron?

Macron has better table manners?

(and given how many centrists so much value tone over actual content, that is depressingly relevant)

[parochial boy]

Without rehashing the debate we already had on exactly the same topic, just a couple of points to make are that

 - Homeschooling is already very rare in France (~0.3% of kids)
 - There is not a lot of evidence suggesting that Muslims kids are especially more likely to be homeschooled than anyone else
 - The existing sociology seem to indicate that decisions by Muslim families to homeschool their childre are made on a similar reasoning to non-Muslim families. In particular the desire to take them out of difficult schools in rough neighbourhoods.

So, is this a piece of legislation that is really addressing the issues around integration and radicalisation? Or is it meaningless fluff chiefly designed with the objective of electioneering?

Adding to Crabcake's point, what is interesting is the way in which the understanding of laïcité has evolved in recent times. Going by IFOP's recent polling, as recently as 2015 it was mainly understood as meaning "separation of church and state" or "treating all religions equally". Since 2005, the number of people who consider it's main meaning is to "reduce the influence of religion on society" has tripled.

[darklordoftech]

Hasn’t homeschooling been illegal for a long time in Germany?

[Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan]

Is there actually any political party in France which is not obsessed with cranked up laicite? Or at least not as much as Macron in recent few months with his raids against halal food in grocery shops etc.?

[Red Velvet]

Remember when every woke lib was salivating over him?

I still do.

He was only hot before. The stress of the presidency made his looks uglier, you can notice the difference in his face before the election and nowadays.

It made him ugly on the inside too.

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

- There is not a lot of evidence suggesting that Muslims kids are especially more likely to be homeschooled than anyone else
 - The existing sociology seem to indicate that decisions by Muslim families to homeschool their childre are made on a similar reasoning to non-Muslim families. In particular the desire to take them out of difficult schools in rough neighbourhoods.

Link to these claims?

French schools are very secular (right?), so it seems fairly likely that one of the reason to chose homeschooling is religious.

[parochial boy]

- There is not a lot of evidence suggesting that Muslims kids are especially more likely to be homeschooled than anyone else
 - The existing sociology seem to indicate that decisions by Muslim families to homeschool their childre are made on a similar reasoning to non-Muslim families. In particular the desire to take them out of difficult schools in rough neighbourhoods.

Link to these claims?

French schools are very secular (right?), so it seems fairly likely that one of the reason to chose homeschooling is religious.

Yes, religion is a motivation, but not one that uniquely concerns Muslim families

Here is exactly the same source I linked to in the last thread.

In particular

Si elles expliquent leur choix par les besoins de l’enfant, les causes sont plurielles. Elles sont certes religieuses, mais aussi professionnelles, résidentielles et pédagogiques. La violence scolaire au sein des quartiers de résidence, l’appréhension ou le refus de l’école sécularisée ainsi que la volonté de rompre avec les temporalités dominantes motivent le choix de ces femmes.

...

Toutefois, hormis la situation minorisée dans laquelle elles se trouvent, à de nombreux égards, il semblerait que les motivations de ces familles ne se distinguent pas tellement de celles mises en avant par les familles non musulmanes.

And about statistics, the key point is there is no way of getting accurate stats because collecting that sort of data is not legal but:

Tous les groupes sociaux semblent concernés ! Dans le cadre des enquêtes que nous menons à l’université de Cergy-Pontoise, les parents non scolarisants résident dans des territoires ruraux comme urbains, parfois dans des quartiers extrêmement défavorisés. Ils exercent des métiers très divers au plan économique, et leurs identités nationales et ethniques sont également contrastées.

If you don't understand the French, deepl is your friend here.

Put simply, the phenomenon is marginal - we're talking 25'000 homeschooled kids, and less than 8'000 who are completely removed from the school system. Even if every single one of them was Muslim, it would still be a marginal fraction of the (rough estimate) slightly over one million or so muslim school aged children in France.

Is there actually any political party in France which is not obsessed with cranked up laicite? Or at least not as much as Macron in recent few months with his raids against halal food in grocery shops etc.?

Well, plenty of figures in LFI or Les Républicains have a rather odd relationship with the concept. The current minister of the interior, in addition to his complicate relationship with the idea of consent, pushed a pretty hardline Catholic position before discovering the horrifying existence of kosher aisles in supermarkets. Christine Boutin also made a career out of being nasty to the gays.

the NPA also once created a shïtstorm by placing a hijab wearing candidate on one of their lists.

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

- There is not a lot of evidence suggesting that Muslims kids are especially more likely to be homeschooled than anyone else
 - The existing sociology seem to indicate that decisions by Muslim families to homeschool their childre are made on a similar reasoning to non-Muslim families. In particular the desire to take them out of difficult schools in rough neighbourhoods.

Link to these claims?

French schools are very secular (right?), so it seems fairly likely that one of the reason to chose homeschooling is religious.

Yes, religion is a motivation, but not one that uniquely concerns Muslim families

Here is exactly the same source I linked to in the last thread.

In particular

Si elles expliquent leur choix par les besoins de l’enfant, les causes sont plurielles. Elles sont certes religieuses, mais aussi professionnelles, résidentielles et pédagogiques. La violence scolaire au sein des quartiers de résidence, l’appréhension ou le refus de l’école sécularisée ainsi que la volonté de rompre avec les temporalités dominantes motivent le choix de ces femmes.

...

Toutefois, hormis la situation minorisée dans laquelle elles se trouvent, à de nombreux égards, il semblerait que les motivations de ces familles ne se distinguent pas tellement de celles mises en avant par les familles non musulmanes.

And about statistics, the key point is there is no way of getting accurate stats because collecting that sort of data is not legal but:

Tous les groupes sociaux semblent concernés ! Dans le cadre des enquêtes que nous menons à l’université de Cergy-Pontoise, les parents non scolarisants résident dans des territoires ruraux comme urbains, parfois dans des quartiers extrêmement défavorisés. Ils exercent des métiers très divers au plan économique, et leurs identités nationales et ethniques sont également contrastées.

If you don't understand the French, deepl is your friend here.

Put simply, the phenomenon is marginal - we're talking 25'000 homeschooled kids, and less than 8'000 who are completely removed from the school system. Even if every single one of them was Muslim, it would still be a marginal fraction of the (rough estimate) slightly over one million or so muslim school aged children in France.

Pretty poor source tbh. Basically admitting there is no good numbers/studies and article itself lacks any number whatsoever.

Religious and religious, I don't know if you can compare "radical" Islam to "radical" Christianity in France. Again, no hard numbers there, but poor and religious homeschooling is likely more dangerous than not poor.

Don't really understand why you think 25 000 is a low number. We'are arguably talking about radicalism due homeschooling and radicalism is almost per definition rare.

My point is that I doubt that Macron's attacks against [muslim] french homeschooling is just rhetorical and symbolical populism. Pretty sure, it's data driven (I assume French intelligence agencies has good data on Radicals).

[parochial boy]

Rejecting an academic source because you don't like what it says is basically an admission that you have lost the argument. Especially when your only counterpoint is "I assume".

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Hasn’t homeschooling been illegal for a long time in Germany?

Yeah, I believe it was specifically targeted at the old nobility and their habits of privately tutoring; it was brought in to level the differences between the old estates.

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

Rejecting an academic source because you don't like what it says is basically an admission that you have lost the argument. Especially when your only counterpoint is "I assume".

You genuinely think your source is good one? It has no data, citing his own thesis and blogs(??) and is pretty vague, no? Also, is it a *political* academic source? Poli sci is not really a science IMO. Not all science created equal   


Is it your only source?

[parochial boy]

Rejecting an academic source because you don't like what it says is basically an admission that you have lost the argument. Especially when your only counterpoint is "I assume".

You genuinely think your source is good one? It has no data, citing his own thesis and blogs(??) and is pretty vague, no? Also, is it a *political* academic source? Poli sci is not really a science IMO. Not all science created equal   


Is it your only source?

She's a Sociologist and there are a load of footnotes at the bottom if you care to check them out.

But thank you for making it clear you either didn't read or didn't understand the source.