Chile Constitutional Referendum, September 4th 2022

[kaoras]

Chile is pretty interesting in that turnout seems to decrease with age compared to turnout tending to peak in late middle age/early elderhood in most countries I've seen and that it collapses with those over 70 unless its a Covid related effect.

Absolutely new phenomenon born of the estallido social. I was checking the other day and in 2013 some young people precincts in Puente Alto had 11% turnout.

The collapse of those over 70 is heavily exacerbated by COVID, though turnouts always fades in that age group given how far away most polling stations are.

I am very curious to hear our Chilean friends weigh-in on this hypothesis: while I am sure that fears of a return to the Pinochet years are much more potent for the elderly than international trends, is there any reason to think that parts of the Chilean middle class were motivated to vote for Boric against Kast because they were horrified that he could be a Chilean Bolsonaro? The main reason I ask is that I always got the sense that the South American left struggled in the late 2010s, in part, because any left candidate could be tied to PSUV. Is Bolsonaro now a boogeyman on this level?

Bolsonaro was used as a boogeyman, most notably by Sichel in one of the first debates, but it wasn't nearly as prominent as Chilezuela in 2017.

I wrote quite a bit on page 36 that historically, the Chilean left has always been stronger among the middle class, and FA, in particular, is very strong among the new middle classes that used to be poor during the dictatorship. These kind of people grow up hearing horror stories about how life was like under Pinochet and feel that their position is very precarious because there isn't a safety net, and they tend to keep their parent's mentality that the right doesn't care about people like them, even if they now are now much more affluent. (I would know, I live in the south but my family fits squarely into this category)

I would say that was Kast itself who was abhorrent to the middle classes, especially in Santiago who after the estallido social seem to be sick of the right (and have never been particularly fond on them). Kast is everything that is repulsive from the right but on steroids, pinochetism included.

Edit: Also, in that sense, this election should be interpreted foremost as a rejection of Kast more than anything else.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Reminder that Gabriel Boric is an anti-semite whose response to a Rosh Hashanah gift basket from Chilean Jews was to ask why they weren't calling upon Israel to end the occupation:

https://twitter.com/gabrielboric/status/1179498192985116672?lang=en

[kaoras]

Reminder that Gabriel Boric is an anti-semite whose response to a Rosh Hashanah gift basket from Chilean Jews was to ask why they weren't calling upon Israel to end the occupation:

https://twitter.com/gabrielboric/status/1179498192985116672?lang=en

Oh, the horror. If that's your standard for antisemitism, then right is worse. Just google Ivan Moreira Palestina. My city even was declared a territory free of Israel Apartheid under an UDI mayor

In fact, a senate resolution calling for sanctions to Israel over the anexation of the west bank passed with unanimous support in the Senate, after being presented by an UDI senator

[Velasco]

The manipulative tactics deployed by reactionaries and friends of the apartheid state are intolerable.  Gabriel Boric says in that tweet "thank you for the gift", but also says: " if your commitment to a fairer society is true, you should ask Israel to put and end to the illegal occupation". Certainly asking Israel to be fair and democratic is antisemitic, while endorsing or turning a blind eye to the abhorrent apartheid regime are the norm.

I will tell all the reactionaries, islamophobes,  hasbara trolls and pinkwashers that I have watched the film 'Shoah' at least twice. Also, I don't buy anything made in Israel and don't accept insults from miserable apartheidists

Gabriel Boric serms to be a decent person

[kaoras]

You may have noticed that Boric margin (56-44%) is almost exactly the same as the plebiscite of 1988. So in that sense it is interesting to compare the maps. Now, it should be noted that the 1988 plebiscite had an urban/rural divide that did not repeat itself in any other election. No to Pinochet won almost every city of importance while Yes won some rural areas that have not voted for the right ever since.

Still, on the left, 1988 plebiscite (Yes= Blue, No = Red), and on the right, 2021 election (Kast= Blue, Boric= Red )


_{I think the second map uses mercator projection or something, this was the best I could do for them to match}

[DL]

Reminder that Gabriel Boric is an anti-semite whose response to a Rosh Hashanah gift basket from Chilean Jews was to ask why they weren't calling upon Israel to end the occupation:

https://twitter.com/gabrielboric/status/1179498192985116672?lang=en

Oh, the horror. If that's your standard for antisemitism, then right is worse. Just google Ivan Moreira Palestina. My city even was declared a territory free of Israel Apartheid under an UDI mayor

In fact, a senate resolution calling for sanctions to Israel over the anexation of the west bank passed with unanimous support in the Senate, after being presented by an UDI senator

I do not think Boric is anti-Semitic (not that I know him personally and claim to know his sub-conscience). I think in this case he was ignorant of how his message plays into an anti-Semitic stereotype that all Jews in the world are somehow responsible for what the government of Israel does. They are not. Israelis are responsible for the actions of their government.

If an organization representing the Chinese community in Chile sent Boric a Happy Chinese New Year's message along with some moon cakes - do you think he would respond by saying "thanks for the cakes, but when was the last time you guys condemned the Chinese government for what its doing to the Uighurs?" - I think not.

[CumbrianLefty]

Well some might respond in that way - would they get called "anti-Chinese" for doing so?

And the irony of a blue avatar calling out AS - given that so many of their sort basically believe "WE SUPPORT ISRAEL SO THAT THEY CAN ALL PERISH IN THE RAPTURE" - has not gone unnoticed

[kaoras]

Reminder that Gabriel Boric is an anti-semite whose response to a Rosh Hashanah gift basket from Chilean Jews was to ask why they weren't calling upon Israel to end the occupation:

https://twitter.com/gabrielboric/status/1179498192985116672?lang=en

Oh, the horror. If that's your standard for antisemitism, then right is worse. Just google Ivan Moreira Palestina. My city even was declared a territory free of Israel Apartheid under an UDI mayor

In fact, a senate resolution calling for sanctions to Israel over the anexation of the west bank passed with unanimous support in the Senate, after being presented by an UDI senator

I do not think Boric is anti-Semitic (not that I know him personally and claim to know his sub-conscience). I think in this case he was ignorant of how his message plays into an anti-Semitic stereotype that all Jews in the world are somehow responsible for what the government of Israel does. They are not. Israelis are responsible for the actions of their government.

If an organization representing the Chinese community in Chile sent Boric a Happy Chinese New Year's message along with some moon cakes - do you think he would respond by saying "thanks for the cakes, but when was the last time you guys condemned the Chinese government for what its doing to the Uighurs?" - I think not.

Well, the thing is that the Jewish community in Chile, or rather the organization that send the message, tend to be extremely nasty on the Palestinian issue and engage in the same kind of attitude you are describing but with people of Palestinian descent and Hamas.

They also tend to promote some insane conspiracy theories about the Palestinian lobby that controls congress and government, secret indoctrination by Hezbollah and talking about the dual loyalties of Congress members of Palestinian descent. And well I want to believe they are doing it on purpose but Jesus Christ.

[Velasco]

Reminder that Gabriel Boric is an anti-semite whose response to a Rosh Hashanah gift basket from Chilean Jews was to ask why they weren't calling upon Israel to end the occupation:

https://twitter.com/gabrielboric/status/1179498192985116672?lang=en

Oh, the horror. If that's your standard for antisemitism, then right is worse. Just google Ivan Moreira Palestina. My city even was declared a territory free of Israel Apartheid under an UDI mayor

In fact, a senate resolution calling for sanctions to Israel over the anexation of the west bank passed with unanimous support in the Senate, after being presented by an UDI senator

I do not think Boric is anti-Semitic (not that I know him personally and claim to know his sub-conscience). I think in this case he was ignorant of how his message plays into an anti-Semitic stereotype that all Jews in the world are somehow responsible for what the government of Israel does. They are not. Israelis are responsible for the actions of their government.

If an organization representing the Chinese community in Chile sent Boric a Happy Chinese New Year's message along with some moon cakes - do you think he would respond by saying "thanks for the cakes, but when was the last time you guys condemned the Chinese government for what its doing to the Uighurs?" - I think not.

While it is true the Jewish diaspora is not liable for the crimes of Israel, the Jewish organizations worldwide lobbying and campaigning for Israel are responsible. The main example of this is the evil AIPAC. In what concerns the Jewish community in Chile,  I don't know to what extent its members and organizations are involved in Israel's propaganda machine. Anyway the claim that Boric is an ignorant who contributes to spread antisemitic stereotypes is false. Asking the Jewish community to take a moral stance on the actions of the self-proclaimed Jewish state is not equal to claim all the Jewish people is guilty of genocide and apartheid. Boric says in that rweet the Jewish community (or its representatives) told him something about the commitment to a fairer society.  The president elect is simply asking these Jewish representatives to be consistent to that commitment, asking Israel to stop committing crimes against humanity. There is not a generic accusation implicit in that call for consistency. In other words, nobody can claim support for equality or inclusiveness while endorsing an apartheid state

[DL]

Well some might respond in that way - would they get called "anti-Chinese" for doing so?

Oh yes they would!! That I can assure you. I can only speak for what would happen in Canada. But I can say with certainty that if the Chinese-Canadian National Council sent the leader of any major political party a gift of mooncakes and a card wishing Happy New year - and the politician responded by tweeting "thanks for the cakes, but when are you going to denounce human rights abuses committed by China in Tibet etc..." - the reaction would be white hot fury - that person would be denounced for inciting anti-Chinese bigotry and for implying that Chinese Canadians are in any way responsible for the actions of the Chinese government. They would be pilloried across the political spectrum, would be persona non grata and would likely be forced to resign their position as leader.

It would be a similar story if the Canadian Arab Federation wished anyone happy Eid and got a response telling them they better do a better job of denouncing ISIS...

[DL]

Well, the thing is that the Jewish community in Chile, or rather the organization that send the message, tend to be extremely nasty on the Palestinian issue and engage in the same kind of attitude you are describing but with people of Palestinian descent and Hamas.

They also tend to promote some insane conspiracy theories about the Palestinian lobby that controls congress and government, secret indoctrination by Hezbollah and talking about the dual loyalties of Congress members of Palestinian descent. And well I want to believe they are doing it on purpose but Jesus Christ.

If the leader of one of these Chilean-Jewish organizations decides to run for public office in Chile then they can be held accountable for wat they have said - but attacking Jews in the diaspora for anything Israel does is pure anti-Semitism. If you don't like what Israel is doing - send a note to the Israeli ambassador 

[Velasco]

Boric didn't attack the Jewish diaspora. Improve your reading comprehension or take some Spanish language lessons, please. Stop telling lies and polluting everywhere with topics related to Israel

[DL]

Boric didn't attack the Jewish diaspora. Improve your reading comprehension or take some Spanish language lessons, please. Stop telling lies and polluting everywhere with topics related to Israel

I don't think he meant to attack all Jews in Chile. He made a mistake and hopefully next time he will know better. When an organization representing the Jewish community in your country sends you new years greetings and a jar of honey - the correct response is something along the lines of "Thank you so much and I look forward to getting building closer ties with the Jewish community which has contributed so much to our country blah blah blah..." - you don't try to turn it into another Israel vs Palestinians food fight. Leave that for another day.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

I know a lot of leftist, anti-Zionist Jews who are extremely tired of people bringing up Israel whenever they mention that they’re Jewish in political discussions. I think it’s nasty, if not intentionally so, to receive a gift from the Jewish community and turn it into an attack on a country where most of them have likely never set foot due solely to their ethnicity, and I think this sort of thing is a major driver of the perception that the left has an anti-Semitism problem because doing this is anti-Semitic. (I also believe that the Jewish community in the US is, as far as I can tell, much less tied to Israel than many other Jewish diaspora communities.) With that said, I decided to actually look up the Comunidad Judía de Chile (the specific organization, that is) and the five most recent news stories on their website are all about Israel, and they have a whole section on their website about hasbara.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Israel uses the diaspora as a political tool and a sledgehammer against those who don't favor giving it a blank check, whether the diaspora knows it or not. Boric asking them to demand what he sees as good behavior from them? That is not Anti-Semitism. Israel relies on support from diaspora communities, in fact, they might be the best-placed of anyone to restrain it. But since they are very deferential towards it, there is precisely zero pressure for them to compromise in substantive way with Palestinians.

I don't see any issue with Boric's remarks. If anything, it shows how hard it is for Israel to get any real pressure either from people who think it to be going off the rails, or from those who passionately disagree with its actions towards Palestinians.

That just encourages Israel to think it is completely above any criticism or accountability for its actions, however justified they may be. And that's unhealthy. Isn't Boric doing Israel a favor? Agree or disagree with his words here - surely giving Tel Aviv a blank check isn't healthy? Isn't basically muzzling a man for expressing solidarity with his side on this issue in the event it isn't the pro-Israeli side doing just that?

If Bolsonaro, in a free society, can express his solidarity with Israel, then Boric can do the same with Palestine. That's just how a healthy, balanced discourse works.

[PSOL]

What’s happening with the constitutional convention?

[DL]

If Bolsonaro, in a free society, can express his solidarity with Israel, then Boric can do the same with Palestine. That's just how a healthy, balanced discourse works.

I have no problem whatsoever with Boric expressing solidarity with Palestinians and if he wants to condemn the current government of Israel, then 9 times out of 10 I'd probably agree with him. But there is a huge difference between doing that and implying that diaspora Jews should take any responsibility for Israel. Boric is of Croatian descent - does anyone demand that he repudiate the government of Croatia for anything atrocities it might have committed in the Bosnian conflict?

[Velasco]

Boric didn't attack the Jewish diaspora. Improve your reading comprehension or take some Spanish language lessons, please. Stop telling lies and polluting everywhere with topics related to Israel

I don't think he meant to attack all Jews in Chile. He made a mistake and hopefully next time he will know better. When an organization representing the Jewish community in your country sends you new years greetings and a jar of honey - the correct response is something along the lines of "Thank you so much and I look forward to getting building closer ties with the Jewish community which has contributed so much to our country blah blah blah..." - you don't try to turn it into another Israel vs Palestinians food fight. Leave that for another day.

Kaoras, who is better informed than us as a Chilean insider, already told to us that particular Jewish organization is like a Chilean AIPAC

So please don't argue a gift from that particular Chilean organization is an innocent sign of goodwill. Boric is a staunch critic of the Israeli state and those folks know it. It is reasonable to wonder why these folks send a gift to that leftist leader claiming commitment to a fairer and more inclusive society. I think this could be a clear example of hypocrisy and trolling


We should make a distinction between the Jewish community or the Chilean diaspora and that particular organization.

Boric didn't attack the Jewish diaspora nor he did a mistake. He gave an addecuate response to a particular Jewish organization. According to kaoras that organization is spreading conspiracy teoríes,  stereotypes and hate speech against Palestinians. Trolls
 

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

If Bolsonaro, in a free society, can express his solidarity with Israel, then Boric can do the same with Palestine. That's just how a healthy, balanced discourse works.

I have no problem whatsoever with Boric expressing solidarity with Palestinians and if he wants to condemn the current government of Israel, then 9 times out of 10 I'd probably agree with him. But there is a huge difference between doing that and implying that diaspora Jews should take any responsibility for Israel. Boric is of Croatian descent - does anyone demand that he repudiate the government of Croatia for anything atrocities it might have committed in the Bosnian conflict?

What we have to go by is the ground rules Israel itself has laid down, as seen in its modus operandi. And Israel certainly tries to play up a "homeland connection" to Jewry worldwide. They aren't bad for doing that, I'd add - but it means that the diaspora are part of Israel's PR strategy, i.e. they are already "political" in terms of the wider Israel-Palestine issue. That's unfortunate, but you have to deal with the world as it is, not the world as it should be.

Boric has not expressed one word of hatred for the Jewish people, as far as I've seen. What little he's said is that he thinks there is an occupation (the UN thinks so as well - but people in a democratic society with a healthy discourse can and should be allowed to disagree without necessarily being judged too harshly), and that he, implicitly, thinks the diaspora is a stakeholder. Since people, on either side of the issue, seem to generally agree that the diaspora's opinions matter on this - as evidenced by Bernie Sanders getting slammed for his stances on Israel during the primaries during the brief time he was seen as frontrunner (yes, there were pro-Israel people in the media who worked with that line of attack) - then why is Boric somehow uniquely hateful on this front?

I say let people have their opinions. Avoid the thought-terminating cliches, and have spirited debate when need be. And let's avoid thinking too ill of each other, whatever our side.

'Anti-Semite' is not a term to used in a way that will inevitably turn into political football (to the extent that is greater than it already is).

It does great disservice to the identifying of actual anti-Jewish bigotry to use the term this carelessly. You need something that has the potency, that communicates the evil of hating them, well - and at the rate the term is being used, if someone emerges who has that vile animus in their heart, we won't know, because it's being wasted.

[DL]

I have said over and over again and that I do NOT think Boric is anti-Semitic. I'm Jewish and if i were Chilean i would have enthusiastically voted for him!! But, I just think he needs to be more careful to avoid these "micro-aggressions" against Jews whereby they feel held to account all the time for whatever Israel does. I take zero responsibility for what Israel says or does i resent the implication that I should have to take a "position" on the Middle East or that i should feel any need to "apologize" for anything.

[kaoras]

Kaoras, who is better informed than us as a Chilean insider, already told to us that particular Jewish organization is like a Chilean AIPAC

Well, let's not overblown it. Though they at institutional press releases do engage in routinary catfights with the Palestinians about which of them has the real all-powerful lobby.

What’s happening with the constitutional convention?

They are doing hearings and receiving proposals from the citizens. The widespread sentiment is that they have been very slow because they still haven't got to the actual discussion of stuff. While that obviously come from unrealistic expectation about how constitutional conventions work, I do believe they have been way too relaxed about how many weeks they have spent on hearings (this is the second round), speeches, and other things.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I have said over and over again and that I do NOT think Boric is anti-Semitic. I'm Jewish and if i were Chilean i would have enthusiastically voted for him!! But, I just think he needs to be more careful to avoid these "micro-aggressions" against Jews whereby they feel held to account all the time for whatever Israel does. I take zero responsibility for what Israel says or does i resent the implication that I should have to take a "position" on the Middle East or that i should feel any need to "apologize" for anything.

Ok, that sounds more measured than your initial take on this, as worded.
The unfortunate fact is that the Israeli state isn't willing to let you have total, placid withdrawal from what happens over there, and it's still absolute fact it will use sentiments from diaspora organizations that happen to be in its favor as a shield to avoid criticism.

The current PR battlefield on this has been shaped mostly by Israel.

That is the ecosystem Boric is dealing with. Boric has no personal quibble with you and there probably is not one iota of daylight between you and him on the matters of importance on this issue. But* he has differences with Israel's government and its supporters. And as Velasco noted, a Chilean insider who posts on this forum has noted that this organization is essentially a Chilean equivalent of one of America's top pro-Israel lobbying organizations. Again, not all-powerful, far from it, but it's clear how they see the world and precisely how they are aligned on this matter, no matter how they present themselves.

I'm not going to fault Israel for its competency in playing the game of politics. But neither can I fault its opponents.

Nonetheless, your impulse is a healthy one when taken as a whole. I wish more in the diaspora had your position and rejected the entreaties of Israel's PR operation (which, I maintain, is not really very much of a special thing in terms of its functions - most states have a PR operation; in the same vein I'd argue Mossad isn't very special in its functions either). In general neither Palestine nor Israel's leadership deserve much support from the diaspora, imo.
*=probably should have put And here, apologies in retrospect

[Velasco]

I have said over and over again and that I do NOT think Boric is anti-Semitic. I'm Jewish and if i were Chilean i would have enthusiastically voted for him!! But, I just think he needs to be more careful to avoid these "micro-aggressions" against Jews whereby they feel held to account all the time for whatever Israel does. I take zero responsibility for what Israel says or does i resent the implication that I should have to take a "position" on the Middle East or that i should feel any need to "apologize" for anything.

You are an individual and not an organization claiming to represent the Jewish community in a Latin American country.  As a Jewish individual you are neither responsible for Israel, nor you are obliged to take a position. Nobody who is reasonable would say you should apologize for anything Israel is doing in the territories under its rule (Jewish Israelis are a different case)

However organizations are different from individuals. Also, according to kaoras, this organization has taken a clear stance on the "Middle East affairs" that is clearly "pro-Israel" and "anti-Palestine". When this organization is trolling a certain Gabriel Boric sending him some "poisoned gifts", I think that Boric is entitled to ask that organization for commitment to decolonization in Palestine. That call from Boric shouldn't be taken as an attack against the rest of the Jewish community or particular individuals, for he is not questioning them

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I have said over and over again and that I do NOT think Boric is anti-Semitic. I'm Jewish and if i were Chilean i would have enthusiastically voted for him!! But, I just think he needs to be more careful to avoid these "micro-aggressions" against Jews whereby they feel held to account all the time for whatever Israel does. I take zero responsibility for what Israel says or does i resent the implication that I should have to take a "position" on the Middle East or that i should feel any need to "apologize" for anything.

You are an individual and not an organization claiming to represent the Jewish community in a Latin American country.  As a Jewish individual you are neither responsible for Israel, nor you are obliged to take a position.

I would like to express my full, total, and complete agreement with these words in particular.

[DL]

Also, according to kaoras, this organization has taken a clear stance on the "Middle East affairs" that is clearly "pro-Israel" and "anti-Palestine". When this organization is trolling a certain Gabriel Boric sending him some "poisoned gifts", I think that Boric is entitled to ask that organization for commitment to decolonization in Palestine. That call from Boric shouldn't be taken as an attack against the rest of the Jewish community or particular individuals, for he is not questioning them

Sometimes the smart thing to do when you think you are being "trolled" is not to take the bait by sending a response that will inevitably be misinterpreted. and BTW: referring to a jar of honey from a Jewish organization as a "poisoned gift" sounds like a Medieval "blood libel" accusing Jews of spreading poison and pestilence - so maybe you should watch your language a bit more.