COVID-19 Megathread 6: Return of the Omicron

[compucomp]

Biden spox says Evropean travel ban won't be lifted.

https://twitter.com/jrpsaki/status/1351322381864890370?
Honestly, I think this is petty actionism. The rule requiring negative pcr is clearly more sensible. Non-essential travel by non-american citizens from those countries is negligible right now anyway. Just perptuates "protect us from them" narrative and unnecessary diplomatic damage, which is what their original purpose was.  

Why not both? Who said that imposing a negative test requirement meant that the travel ban had to be lifted?

Trump clearly made this move with an intention to sabotage Biden and I'm glad that Biden is not having it.

[compucomp]

Trump is just upset he didn't know about the FDA's decision in advance so he could tell his sons or inlaws to short J&J and buy up Moderna and BioNTech yesterday.

[compucomp]

I'm not a particularly religious person, but at this point it wouldn't take much to convince me that Tucker Carlson is an agent of the Devil.

If I were a Republican Party operative I'd pull Tucker aside and tell him to cut out the anti-vax nonsense. He's clearly pandering to the lowest common denominator in his audience, but it's completely not in Republican interests because

• If most Democrats will be vaccinated and most Republicans not vaccinated, then Republicans will disproportionately get sick and die from COVID.
• If Republicans embrace the vaccine, they can claim that since the vaccines were developed and rollout set up under Trump, Biden was handed the ball at the 1 yard line and he deserves little credit for the vaccine and the subsequent economic boom.

Based on his statement today Trump realizes this but Tucker seems to be doubling and tripling down on anti-vax rhetoric. He might just be a true believer in that?

[compucomp]

...Seems like people are just dooming for the sake of it or falling for the media's fearmongering.

We are 610,000 people dead in the US, and yet some people are still downplaying Covid as just "fearmongering."
Un-fing believable.

He said the media's coverage of COVID is fear mongering, not COVID itself. The media is vastly overstating the risks to the vaccinated. I haven't worn a mask anywhere in over a month and unless the business forces me to I have no plans to start again. I have no idea why other fully vaccinated Americans are still so fearful.

Vastly overstating? If anything, the media is not warning the public of the true danger, still peddling the line that if you're vaccinated you're safe with no mitigation measures and that you can resume your 2019 life safely. Consider the following:

-The Delta variant is much more contagious than before, with an R0 of 6-8. Walensky called it one of the most infectious respiratory viruses she's ever seen.
-There's substantial evidence the vaccine is not as effective against Delta than before at protecting against infection, from increasing anecdotal reports of mass infections of vaccinated people to the Israeli study. These have been discussed on this thread and there is cause to question them, but it would be sticking your head in the sand to still believe in the prior 95% efficacy.
-With mask mandates rescinded and cases on the rise across the US, one's exposure to COVID in public places is greater than it was before, and this is especially true if one chooses to resume activities like dining at restaurants, potentially cancelling out the protective effect.

If one gets infected, then one is playing a lottery, where the "good" option is asymptomatic infection or the sniffles, the "bad" option is a nasty fever, malaise, losing sense of smell/taste, etc, and there's still a 5-10% "disaster" option where one ends up hospitalized. We don't even know the odds between the "good" and "bad" options since they're both classified as "mild" symptoms. I don't expect everyone to come to the same conclusion, but to me it's reasonable for one to conclude that vaccination at this point is not sufficient to be safe and resumes mask-wearing or reduces risky activities. Denying this and continuing to proclaim absolute confidence in the vaccine may well end up on the Public Proclamation Wall of Shame alongside "Masks Don't Work" and "COVID-19 Is Not Airborne".

[compucomp]

And the "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" people are not even the same people you're debating on this issue--these are the people who claim vaccines are not necessary. So you're further positioning yourself with the antivax crowd.

No, I'm referring to the fact that "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" were common proclamations from public health officials early in the pandemic. They turned out to be completely untrue and embarrassingly recanted, particularly in the "Masks don't work" case.

That case is actually quite instructive, as it was a complete lie from the start that was intended to manipulate public opinion to prevent mask hoarding. Now, in a similar attempt to manipulate public opinion this time to boost vaccine uptake, apparently the public health authorities (and you) have decided to mislead about its efficacy and portray it as a virus-repelling force field that would let people do anything safely regardless of the exposure. This has proven to be quite a poor message in the face of the Delta variant and I'm guessing the CDC is now trying to find a way to gracefully recant this guidance. But if they had just told the whole truth from the start and not tried to twist it, they wouldn't be in this situation.

And I still refuse to budge an inch from my position that mask mandates are a zero-cost and effective mitigation measure that is only irrationally opposed due to feelings and Trumpist propaganda.

[compucomp]

And the "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" people are not even the same people you're debating on this issue--these are the people who claim vaccines are not necessary. So you're further positioning yourself with the antivax crowd.

No, I'm referring to the fact that "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" were common proclamations from public health officials early in the pandemic. They turned out to be completely untrue and embarrassingly recanted, particularly in the "Masks don't work" case.

That case is actually quite instructive, as it was a complete lie from the start that was intended to manipulate public opinion to prevent mask hoarding. Now, in a similar attempt to manipulate public opinion this time to boost vaccine uptake, apparently the public health authorities (and you) have decided to mislead about its efficacy and portray it as a virus-repelling force field that would let people do anything safely regardless of the exposure. This has proven to be quite a poor message in the face of the Delta variant and I'm guessing the CDC is now trying to find a way to gracefully recant this guidance. But if they had just told the whole truth from the start and not tried to twist it, they wouldn't be in this situation.

And I still refuse to budge an inch from my position that mask mandates are a zero-cost and effective mitigation measure that is only irrationally opposed due to feelings and Trumpist propaganda.

To the bold, those literally were Trumpist propaganda, hence what I said. They wanted to boost the 'everything's fine, this isn't a dangerous virus' talk. Telling people it's airborne and that masks were required would counter the false anti-science reality they sought to create. Those are not the same people saying mask mandates are not necessary--the ones who said that are the ones currently saying vaccines are also unnecessary, something the "return to mandate" mentality validates.

And I'm not going to budge an inch either on my stance, as it is backed by science, and not the misrepresentation of a single study that even the director of it said not to treat as relevant.

No, that's not Trumpist propaganda, that was public health messaging (from Jerome Adams, Fauci, Redfield, etc) in March 2020 that was false and designed to manipulate public opinion and which backfired horribly, straining public health credibility and providing a potent weapon for the Trumpists. Now the public health agencies are making the same mistake by misleading about the vaccine and you're joining right in with them.

You're full of it when you claim that you're backed by science, the science clearly says that masks work to slow the spread of respiratory diseases including COVID-19, and it's still spreading out of control in the community so we need something to slow it down. If we went purely by the science we would have indoor mask mandates in perpetuity.

[compucomp]

If we went purely by the science we would have indoor mask mandates in perpetuity.

This is just as deranged of a position as being anti vax. Wow. Can we please stop pretending there aren't people out there who want masks forever? MattRose might be trolling but it's clear that masks made a certain, extremely socially awkward segment of the population feel better in public and now they're scared to give them up. Unreal.

I can personally attest this is somewhat accurate (though it goes well beyond a mere social awkwardness in my case.) While I am continuing to mask for the time being, I'm also the sort of person that due to intense anxiety and panic issues--it only takes one negative experience to give me an irrational fear of a situation. There are roads I've avoided for the last 5-6 years even, over a single near miss on each of those roads, and instead opt to take slightly longer, lower traffic routes. I've avoided interstates since 2014 for the same reason.

But people who are trying to mandate masks for the vaccinated at this point are showing a complete disregard for rational thought, and using my driving example, would be the same as closing down half a city because of a few accidents rather than being satisfied with those who are nervous simply opting to avoid them.

Also, compucomp's position is antivax, no two ways about it.

I'm so anti-vax, I spent days in April staring at multiple tracker sites to find the earliest available vaccine appointment in three states, and am now considering getting another shot and wondering if there's anything to prevent me from just walking into CVS and getting one even without official sanction from public health agencies. If the truth, that given the current known information a reasonable person could conclude that the vaccine is not sufficiently protective to be safe, is damaging to public health messaging then the messaging needs to be changed, and it is changing right now.

Vaccine mandates are great in theory and I would be in favor of them, but in this country enacting a real one would amount to civil war, while if mask mandates were enacted people would grumble and complain for a bit but ultimately put them back on. They're still zero cost! Why oppose a zero cost mitigation measure that works? We mandate people put clothes on outdoors, and clothes cost money. We mandate people put on seat belts in cars, and those cost money and are uncomfortable. It's still irrational to oppose mask mandates and it is incredibly disappointing that many Democrats have fully embraced the Trumpist position on this issue. Seems even Trump haters have fallen victim to Trumpist brainwashing.

[compucomp]

They're still zero cost! Why oppose a zero cost mitigation measure that works? We mandate people put clothes on outdoors, and clothes cost money. We mandate people put on seat belts in cars, and those cost money and are uncomfortable. It's still irrational to oppose mask mandates and it is incredibly disappointing that many Democrats have fully embraced the Trumpist position on this issue. Seems even Trump haters have fallen victim to Trumpist brainwashing.

You do realize when we're talking about the cost effectiveness of masks that we aren't just talking about the literal price of them, right? They aren't comfortable to wear for extended periods of time, especially in summer heat with how muggy the air gets, and not being able to fully read people's facial expressions makes regular day to day interactions with people stiff and awkward.

After over a year of having no other option, of course people are going to be excited about having the possibility of taking them off. This is why many of us, and not just "Trumpists," are telling you why extending mask mandates would be an awful idea- the idea of not wearing a mask is a vaccine incentive to many people. That's why so many people waited for mask mandates to be lifted to get their vaccines in the first place. Most places have no real way of enforcing mask mandates so if you enacted one nowadays, the only people who would be wearing them are people like you who are vaccinated but paranoid out of their minds from doomscrolling on social media and not the unvaccinated people who would actually benefit from wearing one.

This is the reality even now. I suspect that the vast majority of those still wearing masks at this point are people who are fully vaccinated, but who are paranoid and don't feel comfortable with not wearing them. Most of those who are unvaccinated, and have no intentions of getting the vaccine, are not wearing masks anymore. Thus, a renewed mask mandate would be impractical.

You say a mask mandate would be impractical to enforce, which is a reasonable argument, but then claim that a vaccine mandate is the way? Suppose today one is stopped at the door of a store by an employee with a surgical mask in hand and told that one must wear a mask to enter. What happens? Most will grumble, put on the mask, and go about their business, some will get angry, yell loudly, and leave, and a few would get their guns and shoot the employee. Now imagine the same situation with the employee asking for proof of vaccination? Just about everyone will be angry and have to leave since the vaccine card was not designed for portability and few carry it with them everywhere, many will yell loudly, and more than a nominal number will get their guns and fire. If new mask mandates are impractical then vaccine mandates would be just about impossible.

[compucomp]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/27/cdc-to-reverse-indoor-mask-policy-to-recommend-them-for-fully-vaccinated-people-in-covid-hot-spots.html

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is expected to recommend Tuesday that fully vaccinated people begin wearing masks indoors again in places with high Covid-19 transmission rates, according to people familiar with the matter.

Finally the CDC corrects its mistake from May, better late than never. Dread it, run from it, mask mandates arrive all the same.

Anti-maskers in this forum are looking like this around now:

[compucomp]

The CNBC article I linked was expanded, with another blurb I think is worth taking note:

Dr. Paul Offit, a pediatrician and vaccine advocate who has served on advisory panels for both the CDC and the Food and Drug Administration, told CNBC earlier this month that the U.S. was still “undervaccinated,” with about half of the population not fully vaccinated.

Even people who are fully protected have cause for concern when it comes to Covid variants, Offit said. While the vaccines protect well against severe disease and death, they may not protect as well against mild disease or spreading Covid to others, he said. No vaccine is 100% effective, he noted.

Emphasis mine. Finally public health officials are starting to drop the untenable and false position, espoused by many here, that the vaccine is a virus repelling force field that allows one to do whatever they want safely, without any mitigation, regardless of the exposure. Finally they are acknowledging reality, that the vaccine is not 100% effective and the effectiveness is fluid and may be lower now than it was before, and are warning of the danger of breakthrough infections. It took way too long but better late than never.

[compucomp]

This is basically the teacher punishing the entire class for the behavior of a few bad apples.

The CDC is also undermining its credibility through this move. Now, we're going to see the anti-vaxxers say that they are "vindicated" by this, and the alarmists will be "vindicated" also. Both groups will claim that the vaccine is ineffective. I will be very angry if my workplace decides to reimpose its mask requirement, and if mask mandates return to Colorado. This is the kind of thing I could see having a detrimental effect politically in next year's midterms.

What these past few weeks have taught me is that the anti vax movement is still alive and well on the left. They just hide their vaccine skepticism by being super pro mask.

I'm so deeply opposed to the vaccine, I sat at my desk refreshing multiple tracker sites in April to find the earliest appointment possible in three states and would seriously consider getting a third shot (or 4th, 5th, etc) without official sanction if the spread gets bad enough. If that's being "anti-vax" maybe everyone should be anti-vax.

The "skepticism" is due to the fact that public health authorities and people like you have adopted the message that the vaccine is an impenetrable virus-repelling force field allowing one to be safe against COVID-19 regardless of the exposure. This message is false and now untenable given Delta. "Oh, but you're mostly protected against severe illness and death" you say. Well, I prefer to avoid being bedridden for a week with a high fever, losing my sense of smell and taste, and suffering long-term effects afterwards with a "mild" infection, and hospitalization is such a disastrous result that honestly 95% protection isn't even that good of a number.

No matter how much you want it to be, the pandemic is not over, COVID-19 is still a threat to the public, it's still spreading out of control, and mitigation measures are necessary. I would love a real vaccine mandate where unvaccinated are effectively barred from public places, but since that's impractical and masks are zero cost and worked before, I advocate for mask mandates. Clearly the public health authorities are coming around to my point of view.

[compucomp]

Well, I came back from work about an hour ago, and I can say that nobody has changed their masking habits (as of yet). I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people ignore the CDC guidance and continue on as before. And it's highly unlikely that there will be any new mask mandates in Colorado at this point.

This is a massive political loss for Democrats, and if it continues into 2022 it will greatly impact their performance in the midterms.  Most people have moved past COVID.  The hysterical people on Atlas or Twitter claiming Republicans are death squads are a very small minority of Americans.  The new masking rules are confusing and aggravating to many.  Why get vaccinated if you still have to mask up?  People are waking up and moving on.

In your dreams (or your Trumpist bubble): a poll from a few weeks ago found that 68% of people reported wearing a mask outside their home, including 77% of vaccinated:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/07/08/mask-wearing-plummets-especially-among-unvaccinated--but-delta-variant-creates-growing-anxiety-about-covid-19-polls-find/?sh=6546d3276b85

The poll also found 68% of respondents said they wore a face mask outside their home in the past week, down from 79% in May.

After the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention changed their guidelines on mask wearing for the fully vaccinated, the share of fully vaccinated Americans who reported wearing masks plunged from 90% in May to 77% in June.

[compucomp]

The CDC made another change to their guidance indicating that vaccinated people should get tested upon exposure, even if not showing symptoms. It's clear that the CDC now acknowledges at least one of the following is true: that either breakthrough infections are not rare events and more common than previously acknowledged, or vaccinated people can be contagious just like unvaccinated, or both.

So Democrats and others who take the virus seriously, if you refuse to put on a mask now, you're both endangering yourself and endangering others like the unvaccinated plague rats. Do the right thing. Wear a mask.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/28/health/cdc-covid-testing-vaccine.html

In addition to revising its mask guidance on Tuesday, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention also quietly updated its testing recommendations for people who are fully vaccinated against the coronavirus.

The agency now advises that vaccinated people be tested for the virus if they come into contact with someone with Covid-19, even if they have no symptoms. Previously, the health agency had said that fully vaccinated people did not need to be tested after exposure to the virus unless they were experiencing symptoms.

“Our updated guidance recommends vaccinated people get tested upon exposure regardless of symptoms,” Dr. Rochelle P. Walensky, the agency’s director, said in an email to The New York Times. “Testing is widely available.”

Fully vaccinated people should wear a mask in public indoor spaces after exposure, the agency said. Three to five days later, they should be tested for the virus.

[compucomp]

The CDC made another change to their guidance indicating that vaccinated people should get tested upon exposure, even if not showing symptoms. It's clear that the CDC now acknowledges at least one of the following is true: that either breakthrough infections are not rare events and more common than previously acknowledged, or vaccinated people can be contagious just like unvaccinated, or both.

So Democrats and others who take the virus seriously, if you refuse to put on a mask now, you're both endangering yourself and endangering others like the unvaccinated plague rats. Do the right thing. Wear a mask.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/28/health/cdc-covid-testing-vaccine.html

In addition to revising its mask guidance on Tuesday, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention also quietly updated its testing recommendations for people who are fully vaccinated against the coronavirus.

The agency now advises that vaccinated people be tested for the virus if they come into contact with someone with Covid-19, even if they have no symptoms. Previously, the health agency had said that fully vaccinated people did not need to be tested after exposure to the virus unless they were experiencing symptoms.

“Our updated guidance recommends vaccinated people get tested upon exposure regardless of symptoms,” Dr. Rochelle P. Walensky, the agency’s director, said in an email to The New York Times. “Testing is widely available.”

Fully vaccinated people should wear a mask in public indoor spaces after exposure, the agency said. Three to five days later, they should be tested for the virus.

Stop putting public distrust in the vaccine! You are just making it worse.

"When I ran for President, I promised to be straight with you about COVID—good news or bad. And I promised to follow the science."

-Statement by President Joe Biden on CDC Guidance, 7/27/2021

Well said, Mr. President. The recent developments on COVID are unfavorable for the vaccine and bad for everyone, no doubt about it, but we need to know the facts and downplaying it or outright covering it up is a sure way to get an even worse result. Do you really want to return to the days of "We have it totally under control", "You have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero", "Anyone that wants a test can get a test", and "The risk is low to the average American"?

[compucomp]

The CDC made another change to their guidance indicating that vaccinated people should get tested upon exposure, even if not showing symptoms. It's clear that the CDC now acknowledges at least one of the following is true: that either breakthrough infections are not rare events and more common than previously acknowledged, or vaccinated people can be contagious just like unvaccinated, or both.

So Democrats and others who take the virus seriously, if you refuse to put on a mask now, you're both endangering yourself and endangering others like the unvaccinated plague rats. Do the right thing. Wear a mask.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/28/health/cdc-covid-testing-vaccine.html

In addition to revising its mask guidance on Tuesday, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention also quietly updated its testing recommendations for people who are fully vaccinated against the coronavirus.

The agency now advises that vaccinated people be tested for the virus if they come into contact with someone with Covid-19, even if they have no symptoms. Previously, the health agency had said that fully vaccinated people did not need to be tested after exposure to the virus unless they were experiencing symptoms.

“Our updated guidance recommends vaccinated people get tested upon exposure regardless of symptoms,” Dr. Rochelle P. Walensky, the agency’s director, said in an email to The New York Times. “Testing is widely available.”

Fully vaccinated people should wear a mask in public indoor spaces after exposure, the agency said. Three to five days later, they should be tested for the virus.

Stop putting public distrust in the vaccine! You are just making it worse.

"When I ran for President, I promised to be straight with you about COVID—good news or bad. And I promised to follow the science."

-Statement by President Joe Biden on CDC Guidance, 7/27/2021

Well said, Mr. President. The recent developments on COVID are unfavorable for the vaccine and bad for everyone, no doubt about it, but we need to know the facts and downplaying it or outright covering it up is a sure way to get an even worse result. Do you really want to return to the days of "We have it totally under control", "You have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero", "Anyone that wants a test can get a test", and "The risk is low to the average American"?

If the vaccine wasn't working why are all the covid hot spots in largely unvaccinated jurisdictions?

I never said vaccines don't work. 80% efficacy or whatever it is now is still much better than 0%. However, the prior messaging convinced many, including most on this forum, that the vaccine is an impenetrable COVID-repelling force field that would allow one to do anything safely with no protection. This was never true, but while in May it could be classified as a mild exaggeration, now with the Delta variant it is outright false and a dangerous lie. I applaud Joe Biden for having the courage to risk political blowback in order to do the right thing and allowing the CDC to amend the guidance.

I also never called for closing businesses or bringing back social distancing restrictions. Those cause economic damage while masks cause zero economic damage. You can go back through my posts in this forum, in May I called for removing the social distancing restrictions while retaining the mask mandate. Social distancing is absolutely not sustainable for long periods of time while masking should be.

[compucomp]

It's fascinating (if incredibly depressing) quite how many liberals have memed themselves into taking what amount to soft anti-vaxxer positions. This thread heaves with that kind of nonsense.

If by "meme" you mean "I want to protect myself and want to know the most accurate current developments so I can adjust my behavior accordingly", then you'd be right. Unlike Trumpists, I'm not interested in sacrificing my own health so the president has a better approval rating.

[compucomp]

Can anyone explain how badly (or not) I need to worry about Delta right now, being in north Georgia?

I'm fully vaccinated (Moderna, in January and again in February).  But my anxiety level has risen considerably over the last week or so.

If severe infection/hospitalization is what you're concerned with, then you're probably still fine, although the chance of it has increased a bit from "may not even be worth thinking about" to "very unlikely but probably worth at least considering".

If you'd like to avoid infection entirely, though, then it's probably time to consider changing your behavior to mask up indoors and avoid risky activities like dining indoors or attending unmasked gatherings. Delta is both much more contagious and has shown greater capability of causing breakthrough infections than prior variants. Also keep in mind that being bedridden for a week with a fever and feeling like complete trash, losing sense of smell and taste, and possibly suffering long term effects is still a "mild" infection if it didn't involve shortness of breath or a hospital trip.

[compucomp]

Can anyone explain how badly (or not) I need to worry about Delta right now, being in north Georgia?

I'm fully vaccinated (Moderna, in January and again in February).  But my anxiety level has risen considerably over the last week or so.

If severe infection/hospitalization is what you're concerned with, then you're probably still fine, although the chance of it has increased a bit from "may not even be worth thinking about" to "very unlikely but probably worth at least considering".

If you'd like to avoid infection entirely, though, then it's probably time to consider changing your behavior to mask up indoors and avoid risky activities like dining indoors or attending unmasked gatherings. Delta is both much more contagious and has shown greater capability of causing breakthrough infections than prior variants. Also keep in mind that being bedridden for a week with a fever and feeling like complete trash, losing sense of smell and taste, and possibly suffering long term effects is still a "mild" infection if it didn't involve shortness of breath or a hospital trip.

Reported for outright misinformation

You're full of it. I'm reporting your post right back. Read 'em and weep:

Mild Illness: Individuals who have any of the various signs and symptoms of COVID-19 (e.g., fever, cough, sore throat, malaise, headache, muscle pain, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, loss of taste and smell) but who do not have shortness of breath, dyspnea, or abnormal chest imaging.

Moderate Illness: Individuals who show evidence of lower respiratory disease during clinical assessment or imaging and who have an oxygen saturation (SpO2) ≥94% on room air at sea level.

Severe Illness: Individuals who have SpO2 <94% on room air at sea level, a ratio of arterial partial pressure of oxygen to fraction of inspired oxygen (PaO2/FiO2) <300 mm Hg, respiratory frequency >30 breaths/min, or lung infiltrates >50%.

Critical Illness: Individuals who have respiratory failure, septic shock, and/or multiple organ dysfunction.  

https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/overview/clinical-spectrum/

[compucomp]

Now we know why the CDC changed their guidance; they analyzed an outbreak in Cape Cod and realized that it spread among a largely vaccinated population.

The bubble has burst. The party is over. The blind adherence to the idea that the "vaccine makes you and the community safe from COVID" must end. Clearly in the face of the Delta variant, the vaccine alone is not enough and we need mitigation measures. Given that masks are effective at slowing down the spread and cost nothing, it is utter folly at this point to not institute mask mandates.

But within weeks, health officials seemed to be on to something much bigger. The outbreak quickly grew to the hundreds and most of them appeared to be vaccinated.

As of Thursday, 882 people were tied to the Provincetown outbreak. Among those living in Massachusetts, 74% of them were fully immunized, yet officials said the vast majority were also reporting symptoms. Seven people were reported hospitalized.

The initial findings of the investigation led by the Massachusetts Department of Public Health, in conjunction with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, seemed to have huge implications.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cdc-mask-decision-stunning-findings-cape-cod-beach/story?id=79148102

[compucomp]

You have repeatedly characterized literally everything short of hospitalization as mild, which is simply false.

No, go read the NIH's definition and my post again, which you're literally quoting. As I said before, everything short of hospitalization or shortness of breath is a mild case; dyspnea is the same thing as shortness of breath and nobody would get "abnormal chest imaging" unless they were already hospitalized. All the typical unpleasant symptoms, fever, malaise, vomiting, loss of smell/taste, muscle aches, etc, all mild symptoms.

Just because you yell something loudly doesn't make it true. Quite Trumpist of you to think that it does.

[compucomp]

No, go read the NIH's definition and my post again, which you're literally quoting. As I said before, everything short of hospitalization or shortness of breath is a mild case; dyspnea is the same thing as shortness of breath and nobody would get "abnormal chest imaging" unless they were already hospitalized. All the typical unpleasant symptoms, fever, malaise, vomiting, loss of smell/taste, muscle aches, etc, all mild symptoms.

Just because you yell something loudly doesn't make it true. Quite Trumpist of you to think that it does.

By the way, the definition of a "mild" infection is one that doesn't require hospitalization. If you're bedridden for a week with a high fever, lose your sense of smell and taste, and have lingering symptoms like breathing issues, brain fog, and continue lack of smell and taste for months afterward, that was still a mild infection.

So in one post you claim lingering trouble breathing is mild, yet in another you claim that you've always said that everything short of that is mild. A high grade fever is also not mild, as that alone often warrants a visit to the emergency room.

Contradicting yourself in a public place in a way that's easy to prove is very Trumpist.

I acknowledged the first definition was incorrect, you conveniently didn't quote that post. In every post subsequent to it, I used the correct definition. But of course you had to make yourself look like a Trumpist fool, not bother to read what I post, and quoting repeatedly when I use the correct definition.

[compucomp]

No, go read the NIH's definition and my post again, which you're literally quoting. As I said before, everything short of hospitalization or shortness of breath is a mild case; dyspnea is the same thing as shortness of breath and nobody would get "abnormal chest imaging" unless they were already hospitalized. All the typical unpleasant symptoms, fever, malaise, vomiting, loss of smell/taste, muscle aches, etc, all mild symptoms.

Just because you yell something loudly doesn't make it true. Quite Trumpist of you to think that it does.

By the way, the definition of a "mild" infection is one that doesn't require hospitalization. If you're bedridden for a week with a high fever, lose your sense of smell and taste, and have lingering symptoms like breathing issues, brain fog, and continue lack of smell and taste for months afterward, that was still a mild infection.

So in one post you claim lingering trouble breathing is mild, yet in another you claim that you've always said that everything short of that is mild. A high grade fever is also not mild, as that alone often warrants a visit to the emergency room.

Contradicting yourself in a public place in a way that's easy to prove is very Trumpist.

I acknowledged the first definition was incorrect, you conveniently didn't quote that post. In every post subsequent to it, I used the correct definition. But of course you had to make yourself look like a Trumpist fool, not bother to read what I post, and quoting repeatedly when I use the correct definition.

Your definition keeps changing, as if you hope people will forget. And calling everyone Trumpist because they won't bow to your harassment campaign is the best way to make sure nobody takes you as anything but a troll who is hellbent on derailing the thread.

I changed the definition because the first one I used was wrong. But you couldn't even be bothered to read and then quoted the right definition and called it misinformation and then got punked by a simple link. It's not my fault I got to dunk in your face.

[compucomp]

In other words: The CDC’s reversa was not based on nothing like so many arrogant posters have been saying. If you want to be mad, be mad at the virus itself, don’t shoot the messenger for simply doing their job.

They lost all credibility when they lifted the mask guidance and suggested an honor system for unvaccinated in the first place as that was a purely political decision, so personally I'm going to be highly skeptical of anything that follows. And I remain skeptical of the change in guidance here for that reason--It's all about political pressure.

I change my mind when we have either enforced mask mandates for the unvaccinated, or vaccinate mandates.

To you, the CDC lost all credibility in May when they said vaccinated don't need to wear masks? The guidance change that everyone here agreed is tantamount to recommending mask mandates be rescinded, because there is no practical way to enforce a vaccination-dependent mask mandate? So you're in favor of mask mandates now? What the hell have you been arguing for the last week then?

[compucomp]

To you, the CDC lost all credibility in May when they said vaccinated don't need to wear masks? The guidance change that everyone here agreed is tantamount to recommending mask mandates be rescinded, because there is no practical way to enforce a vaccination-dependent mask mandate? So you're in favor of mask mandates now? What the hell have you been arguing for the last week then?

They lost all credibility when they lifted the mask guidance and suggested an honor system for unvaccinated in the first place as that was a purely political decision

Learn to read, context is important. A rushed lifting of guidance was done with little notice--many in the various agencies had less than 24h notice. Whether the decision was right or wrong down the road doesn't matter--it was made with too little haste to have taken anything beyond public opinion into account. And the honor system suggestion treated the unvaccinated as if they were upstanding citizens who would never lie about their status rather than the selfish delusional hypocrites that they are. The current guidance is an overcorrection. This will also be my last reply on this argument in this thread as I don't wish to derail it further.

Go back to the thread on this forum about the May guidance; whether the poster was in favor or against the guidance, all agreed that there would be mask mandates for everyone or mask mandates for no one. How the hell can you consider the May guidance to be a bad and completely political decision yet oppose mask mandates?  If you're seriously arguing for a vaccine-dependent mask mandate, then you're arguing for a completely artificial construction that simply doesn't exist in the real world, unserious to the point of trolling.

[compucomp]

They are purposely spreading misinformation about the vaccines simply because they know it will get them more attention and clicks

nytimes knows full well that Vaccinated people do not transmit this virus at the same rate as the unvaccinated. They should be ashamed of themselves for potentially putting some of the readers lives at risk by scaring them away from waiting to get vaccinated and making them think that vaccines are not as effective when it comes to protecting them

Again, the slide presentation does say that, and all they tweeted was that it says this. I quoted it above.

"Delta variant vaccine breakthrough cases may be as transmissible as unvaccinated cases"

That's from the CDC slide presentation.  The NYT tweet is:

"Breaking News: The Delta variant is as contagious as chickenpox and may be spread by vaccinated people as easily as the unvaccinated, an internal C.D.C. report said."

It's a restatement and attributes it to the report. What is the issue?

Exactly. People here just can't stand the fact that the pandemic is not over and the vaccines are not the impenetrable shield they envisioned, so they border on Trumpism in denying any unfavorable news as fake news. News flash, you may be done with the virus but it is not done with you, and it's clearly upgraded its game.

There was a post I saw on Twitter that put it excellently, seat belts were not removed from cars when airbags were invented, and now cars are mandated to have both. Masks and vaccines should work in the same way. Mask mandates should be reinstated immediately.

As far as "alarmism" and "fearmongering", the pandemic would have gone much differently and better for everyone if the authorities listened to the alarm instead of taking the attitude that "We have everything under control", "There are 15 cases, soon to go to 0", "The risk is low to the average American", etc. Now that the evidence is staring you in the face that Delta is the real deal and has made serious dents in the vaccine defense, you're seriously still going to downplay it?