Does anyone else find it annoying that...

[MABA 2020]

Does anyone else find it annoying that Grover Cleveland is counted twice, is it not kinda stupid to call him the 22nd and the 24th president? He should just be the 22nd because it means that when people call Trump the 45th president their wrong and then sometimes I see people say "there have been 45 Presidents" and I'm like no there hasn't, I understand why you would think that considering Trump is labeled as the 45th but...

It's a little thing admittedly but it genuinely makes no sense to give him two numbers just cos there was a gap between his two terms.

Could some enterprising American start a campaign to get that changed thx that would help me out a lot

[brucejoel99]

A metaphor: let's say you make a big sandwich & cut it in half. You have the 1st half for breakfast, some pizza for lunch, & the 2nd half for dinner. You wouldn't still call the second half breakfast - even though it was the same sandwich as breakfast - because of the order in which you ate it.

Hence why Cleveland is counted twice: so the distinction can be made with regards to the non-consecutiveness. In Cleveland's case, he had somebody - Benjamin Harrison - interrupting him, so his 2nd non-consecutive term is distinct from his 1st as it wasn't the 2nd half of 1 continuous presidency. If you were to just match him to the number corresponding to his 1st non-consecutive term, then that wouldn't convey the distinctiveness of his subsequent non-consecutive term.

[MABA 2020]

A metaphor: let's say you make a big sandwich & cut it in half. You have the 1st half for breakfast, some pizza for lunch, & the 2nd half for dinner. You wouldn't still call the second half breakfast - even though it was the same sandwich as breakfast - because of the order in which you ate it.

I wouldn't call it breakfast but it is the same sandwich, it doesn't become a new sandwich because I ate pizza in-between, it's just the second half of the same sandwich. Cleveland can't be the 24th president because he is already the 22nd

I also don't think it's necessary to convey the distinctiveness of his subsequent non-consecutive term, I do think it's necessary to clearly convey how many people have been president.

[darklordoftech]

FWIW, William Barr is counted as both the 77th and 85th Attorney General and Bill Clinton is counted as both the 40th and 42nd Governor of Arkansas.

[brucejoel99]

A metaphor: let's say you make a big sandwich & cut it in half. You have the 1st half for breakfast, some pizza for lunch, & the 2nd half for dinner. You wouldn't still call the second half breakfast - even though it was the same sandwich as breakfast - because of the order in which you ate it.

I wouldn't call it breakfast but it is the same sandwich, it doesn't become a new sandwich because I ate pizza in-between, it's just the second half of the same sandwich. Cleveland can't be the 24th president because he is already the 22nd

I also don't think it's necessary to convey the distinctiveness of his subsequent non-consecutive term, I do think it's necessary to clearly convey how many people have been president.

You can only have the 2nd half of a given presidency if that presidency is continuous. A non-consecutive president's presidencies are inherently not continuous, because if you serve non-consecutive terms, then you have 2 different presidencies. That's just how it works.

And saying "I wouldn't call it breakfast but it is the same sandwich" actually proves my point: it's the same person (the "sandwich") holding the presidency, yes, but it's not the same presidency as their first presidency (the "breakfast").

[MABA 2020]

You can only have the 2nd half of a given presidency if that presidency is continuous. A non-consecutive president's presidencies are inherently not continuous, because if you serve non-consecutive terms, then you have 2 different presidencies. That's just how it works.

And saying "I wouldn't call it breakfast but it is the same sandwich" actually proves my point: it's the same person (the "sandwich") holding the presidency, yes, but it's not the same presidency as their first presidency (the "breakfast").

I understand the point your making, that is how it works, but I happen to think the way it works is dumb and that it should be counted by person. I guess I just wanted to see if anyone agreed with me or if I was literally the only who cares about this.

Also your metaphor is flawed, I would never only eat half a sandwich

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Japan counts appointments as Prime Minister separately even if they're consecutive. Abe is Japan's 90th, 96th, 97th, and 98th PM.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Hence why Cleveland is counted twice: so the distinction can be made with regards to the non-consecutiveness. In Cleveland's case, he had somebody - Benjamin Harrison - interrupting him, so his 2nd non-consecutive term is distinct from his 1st as it wasn't the 2nd half of 1 continuous presidency. If you were to just match him to the number corresponding to his 1st non-consecutive term, then that wouldn't convey the distinctiveness of his subsequent non-consecutive term.

I agree with OP tbh. That's just counting his terms, not the number of officeholders, which is the point of information supposed to be in question. There is no reason to believe his nonconsecutiveness is relevant when discussing how many individuals have held the office of President.

If an alien were to drop from the sky and ask us "how many Presidents the United States have there been?" the fact that Trump is considered 'the 45th President of the United States' would be entirely misleading because only 44 people have been POTUS.

This:

Japan counts appointments as Prime Minister separately even if they're consecutive. Abe is Japan's 90th, 96th, 97th, and 98th PM.

is a far more consistent way of counting Presidents if you want to count Cleveland twice. Just make it about terms.

[brucejoel99]

Hence why Cleveland is counted twice: so the distinction can be made with regards to the non-consecutiveness. In Cleveland's case, he had somebody - Benjamin Harrison - interrupting him, so his 2nd non-consecutive term is distinct from his 1st as it wasn't the 2nd half of 1 continuous presidency. If you were to just match him to the number corresponding to his 1st non-consecutive term, then that wouldn't convey the distinctiveness of his subsequent non-consecutive term.

I agree with OP tbh. That's just counting his terms, not the number of officeholders, which is the point of information supposed to be in question. There is no reason to believe his nonconsecutiveness is relevant when discussing how many individuals have held the office of President.

If an alien were to drop from the sky and ask us "how many Presidents the United States have there been?" the fact that Trump is considered 'the 45th President of the United States' would be entirely misleading because only 44 people have been POTUS.

This:

Japan counts appointments as Prime Minister separately even if they're consecutive. Abe is Japan's 90th, 96th, 97th, and 98th PM.

is a far more consistent way of counting Presidents if you want to count Cleveland twice. Just make it about terms.

Eh, I'd disagree with that assertion; the point of information supposed to be in question isn't the number of officeholders or their terms (like in Japan), but rather to just express the order of who's been in charge: he was #22, then we had #23, but he came back as the 24th taker of the position. It doesn't matter that he was the same guy.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Eh, I'd disagree with that assertion; the point of information supposed to be in question isn't the number of officeholders or their terms (like in Japan), but rather to just express the order of who's been in charge: he was #22, then we had #23, but he came back as the 24th taker of the position. It doesn't matter that he was the same guy.

Then calling Trump the 45th POTUS is a confusion, because it's not numbering the number of Presidents but Presidencies. Properly Trump is 'presiding over the 45th Presidency'.

[brucejoel99]

Eh, I'd disagree with that assertion; the point of information supposed to be in question isn't the number of officeholders or their terms (like in Japan), but rather to just express the order of who's been in charge: he was #22, then we had #23, but he came back as the 24th taker of the position. It doesn't matter that he was the same guy.

Then calling Trump the 45th POTUS is a confusion, because it's not numbering the number of Presidents but Presidencies. Properly Trump is 'presiding over the 45th Presidency'.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Look, I suppose Italy counts people and not presidencies or governements, but simply no one cares.

Like, literally nobody refers to Conte as the 58th Prime Minister (or the 29th counting only the Republican era) or to Mattarella as the 12th President of the Republic. And I could bet extremely few people know the first two numbers and only some know the latter figure.

So I am just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Stop counting.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Look, I suppose Italy counts people and not presidencies or governements, but simply no one cares.

Like, literally nobody refers to Conte as the 58th Prime Minister (or the 29th counting only the Republican era) or to Mattarella as the 12th President of the Republic. And I could bet extremely few people know the first two numbers and only some know the latter figure.

So I am just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Stop counting.

Is listing the Prime Ministers or the Presidents of the Republic part of public instruction in Italy? In the US most schoolchildren are taught to list the Presidents in order.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Look, I suppose Italy counts people and not presidencies or governements, but simply no one cares.

Like, literally nobody refers to Conte as the 58th Prime Minister (or the 29th counting only the Republican era) or to Mattarella as the 12th President of the Republic. And I could bet extremely few people know the first two numbers and only some know the latter figure.

So I am just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Stop counting.

Is listing the Prime Ministers or the Presidents of the Republic part of public instruction in Italy? In the US most schoolchildren are taught to list the Presidents in order.

Hahahahahahaha not at all.
I know that in the United States they are because a friend of mine once introduced me to one of those massively irritating nursery-rhyme-ish songs that list all the Presidents in order.

[Sir Mohamed]

It just makes sense to count him twice. Just like Jerry Brown is the 34th and 39th CA gov. But I'm not sure whether it has always been that way. I saw footage/clips from 1945 after FDR's death saying Harry Truman was sworn in as 32nd prez.

[dead0man]

Look, I suppose Italy counts people and not presidencies or governements, but simply no one cares.

Like, literally nobody refers to Conte as the 58th Prime Minister (or the 29th counting only the Republican era) or to Mattarella as the 12th President of the Republic. And I could bet extremely few people know the first two numbers and only some know the latter figure.

So I am just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Stop counting.

Is listing the Prime Ministers or the Presidents of the Republic part of public instruction in Italy? In the US most schoolchildren are taught to list the Presidents in order.

Hahahahahahaha not at all.
I know that in the United States they are because a friend of mine once introduced me to one of those massively irritating nursery-rhyme-ish songs that list all the Presidents in order.

certainly some US students learn (for fun or because teacher told them to) the Presidents, most don't.  I didn't and none of my kids (4) did either.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Look, I suppose Italy counts people and not presidencies or governements, but simply no one cares.

Like, literally nobody refers to Conte as the 58th Prime Minister (or the 29th counting only the Republican era) or to Mattarella as the 12th President of the Republic. And I could bet extremely few people know the first two numbers and only some know the latter figure.

So I am just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Stop counting.

Is listing the Prime Ministers or the Presidents of the Republic part of public instruction in Italy? In the US most schoolchildren are taught to list the Presidents in order.

Hahahahahahaha not at all.
I know that in the United States they are because a friend of mine once introduced me to one of those massively irritating nursery-rhyme-ish songs that list all the Presidents in order.

certainly some US students learn (for fun or because teacher told them to) the Presidents, most don't.  I didn't and none of my kids (4) did either.

I see. Funnily I know all the US Presidents in order but I am less sure about Italian Prime Ministers, although that is because I personally have weird curiosities and frequent sites like this.

[TDAS04]

No.  What bugs me is the inconsistency, that it doesn't apply to the Speaker of the House.  "Paul Ryan, 54th Speaker, succeeded by 52nd Speaker, Nancy Pelosi."  That does not make sense.

[Meclazine for Israel]

There is no ambiguity in being the 45th President and the 44th person to hold the office.

That is just basic common sense.