Petition to Stop the " National College Access Act"

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Making AP the norm for every student with a one size fits all track is a bad idea. Ted is right, different people have different needs and it also contributes to the fat that we have a lot of people going into fields with degrees that are saturated, meanwhile we have drastic shortages in skilled blue collar trades.

This is because we have created as stigma that the path to riches is paved in shelling out huge sums for college and loading up on debt to get their, only to find the rainbow doesn't lead to a pot of gold but a pot of misery. Meanwhile we have discouraged blue collar fields and treated them as second class people with secondary needs and as if they were unimportant and don't matter.

This 4 year school bias in our school system and the effects that it has had in driving the college debt crisis as well the shortage of skilled trades needs not to be made worse, it needs to be eliminated. AP is a great program, but here again, "one size fits all", "make it the standard", "force everyone to do the same thing", "nationalize the program" it all comes from the same mindset of policy makers dictating in advance what kids should do without considering their own skills, needs and interests on an individualized basis. The end result of this standardization, this regimentation of education is going to be far more drop outs and far more poverty.

[Saint Milei]

I don't think people should receive college credits for stuff they do before college. There is a concrete program for college.

So because you have some random belief people dont deserve to earn credits before college everyone should suffer higher costs? You didn't add anything in the bill dealing with gen ed requirements. The cost is going to rise. Additionally, you still haven't provided a reasonable argument on why AP exams are a bad thing.

Well like I said it is debatable whether a bill to deal with gen ed requirements should be a regional or a national bill. But hey, if that is your wish I will more than gladly introduce such an amendment

As for why killing AP is good, very simple. High school is high school and college is college and there should be little to no overlap between the 2. If there is something that you can do in high school that can give you credit for college; then it is not fit for college and should just be made mandatory in high school.

The purpose of college is to provide an specialized education that cannot be achieved in high school. If colleges are giving credit for stuff done in high school, that kinda defeats their own purpose.

Tack, you seem to have this one-dimensional view of college and don't provide enough support for your argument. Honestly, at this point, I'd rather you just post someone else making the same argument you did with actual data to back this up. I have my own issues with gen ed requirements, but to just abolish the requirements (this is still wrong) because you feel like it doesn't make sense to have AP exams is incredibly nonsensical. The goal of this wasn't to deal with college education directly and now it seems like there are a variety of other problems that need to be addressed. Gen ed requirements can help students decide what they want to major in. Yes, it's true that a student should already know before attending college, but not everyone has that luxury. If you are going to nationalize this, i need to see a complete plan for college as well

[Former President tack50]

We live in a very contorted world where "nationalization" of anything with its empowering of the centralized state and bureaucracy is "necessary" for the sake of regionalizing something.

Regionalism isn't about the Federal gov't doling out the crumbs of the cookies it doesn't fancy taking for itself. Regionalism is about the preservation of powers that originally belong to the regions and minimizing the extent to which the Federal Gov't has usurped either legally or illegally said powers from the regions originally.

It is my contention that education by rights belongs to the regions, and that the Federal Gov't should support the actions of the regions to ensure resources are available and while some strings necessarily come along with this, those should be minimized. Nationalization of private property and entities is not part of that equation. The Regions can regulate said entities to service their needs and the Federal Gov't can back them up in that regulatory effort if necessary. Yet we keep getting back to "well you need to nationalize to do this, nationalize to do that". NO! You Don't!

Get outside of the centralist hive mind and consider the alternatives before making declarative statements that "this is the only way" when such is patently false.

Tbh my RL background probably shapes me thinking "top down" rather than "bottom up" in terms of regionalization even when I hate that kind of thing irl

In any case, I personally believe that, since College Board is a corporation that operates federally, it should be nationalized by the federal government even when its replacements will be distributed among the regions. It certainly would not make sense for any of the regions to nationalize said corporation.

I actually do agree with the fact that education belongs to the regions and I am trying my best to not push for an undue centralization of education in the federal government any more than is necessary for the nationalization of College Board (and ACT Inc).

I have not hidden that this is a pro-government power bill or statist bill at all. But I will 100% contest seeing this bill as a pro-centralization bill

[Former President tack50]

Making AP the norm for every student with a one size fits all track is a bad idea. Ted is right, different people have different needs and it also contributes to the fat that we have a lot of people going into fields with degrees that are saturated, meanwhile we have drastic shortages in skilled blue collar trades.

This is because we have created as stigma that the path to riches is paved in shelling out huge sums for college and loading up on debt to get their, only to find the rainbow doesn't lead to a pot of gold but a pot of misery. Meanwhile we have discouraged blue collar fields and treated them as second class people with secondary needs and as if they were unimportant and don't matter.

This 4 year school bias in our school system and the effects that it has had in driving the college debt crisis as well the shortage of skilled trades needs not to be made worse, it needs to be eliminated. AP is a great program, but here again, "one size fits all", "make it the standard", "force everyone to do the same thing", "nationalize the program" it all comes from the same mindset of policy makers dictating in advance what kids should do without considering their own skills, needs and interests on an individualized basis. The end result of this standardization, this regimentation of education is going to be far more drop outs and far more poverty.

I thought about pointing this out on my reply to tmth but ended up deciding against it. But I will say that I do fully support encouraging and empowering apprenticeships and the like instead of creating a "one size fits all" of college or bust.

Certainly people that want to do an apprenticeship would have no need for a program like that.

We should 100% encourage people to pursue apprenticeships over college. But wouldn't such a reform be better for a regional bill?

[Former President tack50]

Anyways, if AP abolition is really the only issue people have with the bill it will not be the hill I choose to die on. I will propose an amendment like this if people want me to:

SECTION I. NATIONALIZING BIG TEST MAKERS
1. CollegeBoard is hereby nationalized and placed under the control of the Atlasian Department of Education.

2. The Educational Testing Service (ETS) is hereby nationalized and placed under the control of the Atlasian Department of Education.

3. ACT, Inc. is hereby nationalized and placed under the control of the Atlasian Department of Education.

SECTION II. PHASING OUT BAD TESTS AND PROGRAMS
1. The Scholastic Assessment Test (ACT) shall be phased out by the end of the 2021/2022 school year.

2. The ACT test shall be phased out by the end of the end of the 2021/2022 school year.

3. The design and execution of the Advanced Placement program (AP) shall be phased out transferred to the several regions of Atlasia by the end of the 2021/2022 school year.

4. The Atlasian Department of Education shall work towards reducing the amount of public standardized tests supplied to public high schools.

5. Any private organization seeking to supply assessments to any public high school in the Republic of Atlasia must comply with the standards specified in Section IV of this bill in addition to any standards implemented by regional governments.

SECTION III. NATIONAL TESTING ORGANISATION
1. CollegeBoard, the Educational Testing Service and ACT, Inc. shall be consolidated into a new assessment provider referred to as the National Testing Organisation (NTO). This new organization shall be formed as a subsidiary under the Department of Education.

2. The NTO shall be responsible for producing assessments to the standards provided in Section IV of this bill.

3. Regions are permitted to opt-out of any assessments imposed on a national level in favour of regional assessments.

4. The NTO shall have a separate department for each region which shall produce assessments according to the policies of the regional governments.

5. The NTO shall operate on a budget of $800 million per year, subject to inflation.

6. The NTO shall begin distributing assessments for academic year 2021/2022.

SECTION IV: ASSESSMENT STANDARDS
1. All specified assessment providers must meet the standards described in this section:
 a. All specified assessment providers must incorporate 2 or more of the following modes of assessment into any assessment regime:
 i. Essay-based assessment.
 ii. Research project.
 iii. Mathematical problem-solving.
 iv. Scientific experiment.
 v. Artistic project.
 vi. Work experience and internships.
 vii. Spoken exam.
 b. All specified assessment providers must have clear arrangements for giving special consideration to students facing the following circumstances:
 i. Physical and mental disabilities.
 ii. Learning difficulties.
 iii. Illness or injury.
 iv. Bereavement.
 
2. Schools must have clear arrangements to ensure access to assessments to students facing limiting circumstances.
 a. Eligible concerns:
 i. Physical and mental disabilities.
 ii. Learning disabilities.
 iii. Illness or injury.
 iv. Bereavement.
 b. Responsibilities:
 i. Schools must offer the opportunity to take an assessment at another date for students who are unable to take an assessment where there is a specific date.
 ii. Schools must inform the assessment provider if a student is eligible for special consideration as outlined in Part 1b.
 iii. Schools must respond to and record concerns issued by Students and Guardians regarding a need for special consideration.
 
3. All specified assessment providers must provide the following material free of charge:
 a. Past papers
 b. Sample papers
 c. Model answers
 d. Grading rubric
 e. Information about relevant learning materials available for students

4. A sub-department shall be formed under each regional department which shall be responsible for ensuring that the assessments produced by the NTO meet the standards provided in this section.

5. The sub-departments created by Part 4 are required to publish a report by the 1st of November every year examining the assessments they have produced, the results and feedback received; and explaining measures the organisation has taken to ensure the standards covered in this section and any additional policies implemented by the relevant region have been adhered to.
 a. This provision shall take effect on the 1st of January 2022.


SECTION V: INVESTING IN THE NEXT GENERATION
1. The budget of the Department of Education shall be increased by $10 billion.
 a. This money shall be used to fund the grant provided in Part 3.
 b. The remainder of this money shall be distributed to schools.
 i. The Department of Education shall be tasked with calculating a formula which prioritises schools with large class sizes, low funding per student and low achievement.

2. The price for a textbook or other learning material required to take an assessment shall be capped at $75 per item.

3. Students living below the Atlasian Federal Poverty line shall be eligible for a $200 grant to pay for books and supplies.

SECTION VI. PAYING FOR THE NATIONALIZATIONS
1. A tax of 2% per annum shall be levied on endowments supported by educational institutions who have net assets of more than $500,000 per student.
 a. The threshold of net assets of more than $500,000 shall be subject to inflation.

SECTION VII. ENACTMENT
1. This bill, except for the parts that specify otherwise, shall become enacted immediately after passage

[SevenEleven]

Why would different regions have different requirements? There's no reason education shouldn't be guided by national standards and priorities.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

It certainly would not make sense for any of the regions to nationalize said corporation.

WHHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY??

I actually do agree with the fact that education belongs to the regions and I am trying my best to not push for an undue centralization of education in the federal government any more than is necessary for the nationalization of College Board (and ACT Inc).

I have not hidden that this is a pro-government power bill or statist bill at all. But I will 100% contest seeing this bill as a pro-centralization bill

You see this is the slow drip, the trickle to centralization right here. "I am trying not to centralize education, except for what is necessary to do x". When you aren't accounting for is the next guy that comes along and says the same thing for y and then the guy after that does it for z, then the guy after that is Xahar 2.0 calling for the elimination of the regions.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Why would different regions have different requirements? There's no reason education shouldn't be guided by national standards and priorities.

If you strip the regions of all responsibilities over time, activity at the regional level will collapse leading to a push to abolish the regions and possibly even the game itself.

The success of the game requires a balance of activity just as much as their is a balance of power. Failure to do so could result in a 2015 style redux, in which you had a radical group of centralists sparked an event called bloody July. There were many factors playing into this including too many offices relative to activity levels hence consolidation to three regions, but part and parcel to that is the activity levels themselves and thus why there was a move towards decentralizing certain policy areas to the regions, while at the same time expanding game play in foreign policy via the GM to keep everything active and balanced.

[Former President tack50]

It certainly would not make sense for any of the regions to nationalize said corporation.

WHHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY??

I actually do agree with the fact that education belongs to the regions and I am trying my best to not push for an undue centralization of education in the federal government any more than is necessary for the nationalization of College Board (and ACT Inc).

I have not hidden that this is a pro-government power bill or statist bill at all. But I will 100% contest seeing this bill as a pro-centralization bill

You see this is the slow drip, the trickle to centralization right here. "I am trying not to centralize education, except for what is necessary to do x". When you aren't accounting for is the next guy that comes along and says the same thing for y and then the guy after that does it for z, then the guy after that is Xahar 2.0 calling for the elimination of the regions.

I mean, do you seriously think say, Fremont has the right to start nationalizing businesses in Florida or wherever? Hell, better yet, do you think this bill would be any better if say, Lincoln was nationalizing the College Board in all of Atlasia?

Federal corporations should be nationalized by the federal government. It is something self-explainatory I would argue?

Also, like I say, this is a bill that tries to reduce the centralization to a minimum. Like I've said, it would be much, much easier for me to create a bill that sweepingly centralizes college access in all of Atlasia as well as all of college education by abolishing gen eds and what not. That'd go a long way to, for instance, calm at least some of Deadprez's concerns.

But I am taking the hard route and going out of my way to leave several avenues for the regions to tackle college education at a later time, much like Fremont under Truman has done.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Is that the limit of your vision? Can you not see how a region could do this?

[Former President tack50]

Is that the limit of your vision? Can you not see how a region could do this?

If you mean nationalization, no I don't. I cannot see how a region can perform such a nationalization.

If you mean solving the current issues without nationalization yes I do see it. But in this case, nationalization is not only a means to an end, but an end in itself as well. Quite simply, why should publicly funded colleges and public high schools depend on private corporations to decide how their students are tested?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Is that the limit of your vision? Can you not see how a region could do this?

If you mean nationalization, no I don't. I cannot see how a region can perform such a nationalization.

If you mean solving the current issues without nationalization yes I do see it. But in this case, nationalization is not only a means to an end, but an end in itself as well. Quite simply, why should publicly funded colleges and public high schools depend on private corporations to decide how their students are tested?

The correct answer is: The Regions can create their own test and limit/regulate/not utilize other alternatives at their discretion.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

If you mean solving the current issues without nationalization yes I do see it. But in this case, nationalization is not only a means to an end, but an end in itself as well. Quite simply, why should publicly funded colleges and public high schools depend on private corporations to decide how their students are tested?

Why should publicly funded hospitals rely on private corporations to supply them with medical supplies?

Why should they rely on Colorox to provide them with bathroom cleaner?

A competitive, private sector market can provide these goods and services more efficiently and cheaper than having the government do it itself.

Publicly funded entities rely on the private sector all of the time, the question is thus not whether or not public entities should rely on private sector suppliers, but whether or not they are getting the service or good in the manner that fits the need and also is a reasonable cost.

If Regions aren't satisfied with the quality of the tests provided they should regulate and/or create their own. Either way, it isn't grounds to send in jackbooted thugs to steal private property for the central state to distribute the crumbs from.

[Former President tack50]

Is that the limit of your vision? Can you not see how a region could do this?

If you mean nationalization, no I don't. I cannot see how a region can perform such a nationalization.

If you mean solving the current issues without nationalization yes I do see it. But in this case, nationalization is not only a means to an end, but an end in itself as well. Quite simply, why should publicly funded colleges and public high schools depend on private corporations to decide how their students are tested?

The correct answer is: The Regions can create their own test and limit/regulate/not utilize other alternatives at their discretion.

Yes and they still can. I don't get the issue here?

If you mean solving the current issues without nationalization yes I do see it. But in this case, nationalization is not only a means to an end, but an end in itself as well. Quite simply, why should publicly funded colleges and public high schools depend on private corporations to decide how their students are tested?

Why should publicly funded hospitals rely on private corporations to supply them with medical supplies?

Why should they rely on Colorox to provide them with bathroom cleaner?

A competitive, private sector market can provide these goods and services more efficiently and cheaper than having the government do it itself.

Publicly funded entities rely on the private sector all of the time, the question is thus not whether or not public entities should rely on private sector suppliers, but whether or not they are getting the service or good in the manner that fits the need and also is a reasonable cost.

If Regions aren't satisfied with the quality of the tests provided they should regulate and/or create their own. Either way, it isn't grounds to send in jackbooted thugs to steal private property for the central state to distribute the crumbs from.

There are certainly instances where indeed things are better left to the free market but this is not one of them.

Honestly I feel there is just a philosophical divide here. Sure, the regions could in theory adopt such laws, essencially not recognizing the SAT tests nor any other similar tests; and then creating their own regional standards.

However nationalizing the College Board and then distributing its remainders is also a good option.

You can think of it as "bottom-up" vs "top-down" devolution. The latter is still regionalism in my view.

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

Is that the limit of your vision? Can you not see how a region could do this?

If you mean nationalization, no I don't. I cannot see how a region can perform such a nationalization.

If you mean solving the current issues without nationalization yes I do see it. But in this case, nationalization is not only a means to an end, but an end in itself as well. Quite simply, why should publicly funded colleges and public high schools depend on private corporations to decide how their students are tested?

The correct answer is: The Regions can create their own test and limit/regulate/not utilize other alternatives at their discretion.

Yes and they still can. I don't get the issue here?

If you mean solving the current issues without nationalization yes I do see it. But in this case, nationalization is not only a means to an end, but an end in itself as well. Quite simply, why should publicly funded colleges and public high schools depend on private corporations to decide how their students are tested?

Why should publicly funded hospitals rely on private corporations to supply them with medical supplies?

Why should they rely on Colorox to provide them with bathroom cleaner?

A competitive, private sector market can provide these goods and services more efficiently and cheaper than having the government do it itself.

Publicly funded entities rely on the private sector all of the time, the question is thus not whether or not public entities should rely on private sector suppliers, but whether or not they are getting the service or good in the manner that fits the need and also is a reasonable cost.

If Regions aren't satisfied with the quality of the tests provided they should regulate and/or create their own. Either way, it isn't grounds to send in jackbooted thugs to steal private property for the central state to distribute the crumbs from.

There are certainly instances where indeed things are better left to the free market but this is not one of them.

Honestly I feel there is just a philosophical divide here. Sure, the regions could in theory adopt such laws, essencially not recognizing the SAT tests nor any other similar tests; and then creating their own regional standards.

However nationalizing the College Board and then distributing its remainders is also a good option.

You can think of it as "bottom-up" vs "top-down" devolution. The latter is still regionalism in my view.

The status quo however is still no nationalization at the top.

[Sestak]

My thoughts on this are kind of scattered, but...the main thing here for me is that if nationalization is something we are doing here, then it’s at the very least something that we need to get absolutely right on one go. And I’m not sure about that here.

First of all, the move being made in this bill appears to be replacing the SAT with a new test while eliminating the AP program entirely; which personally I feel should be the other way around; the single test score is far more useless than a program which at least provides some consistent level of higher tier teaching (even if the curriculum is not done the best way). As Truman said, the main issue with AP is that it very actively encourages “teaching for the test”, which is almost never a great way of teaching. Modifying/changing the AP to fix this would be something I strongly support; eliminating it because of a belief that every single student should have to take the exact same classes at the same levels is something I believe is wrong and extremely authoritarian.

The problem with CB is technically not even that it exists or that it’s programs exist: I see it’s problems as threefold.

1. It’s a test which nearly every competitive college requires you to take for a chance at admission, and you have to take their test (or ACT’s) creating a monopoly/duopoly. For AP it’s an extremely strong monopoly as colleges in the US/Atlasia don’t really play that nice with IB/A-levels/etc. The monopolies here are perpetuated by both public and private colleges.

2. Despite this, CB/ACT etc. are completely unaccountable organizations, so the students of Atlasia are basically bound by whatever they choose to test, however they choose to hold then, etc

3. Despite being ostensibly a nonprofit, they charge high fees for their exams ($50 for SATs, close to $100 for each AP), while paying million dollar salaries to their top executives while still ending up with a reasonably large surplus (which in this case we have another name for in the business world which they aren’t really supposed to have).


I mean, if we are concerned about too sweeping a solution, a potential alternative from the federal level I propose is this: the federal goverment creates their own tear and then requires that all colleges must accept the federal test in lieu of the SAT or any other such exam if am applying student so chooses. This still allows flexibility, and allows the regions to still set up their own testing; and for those who will inevitably say “but government testing is bad” the other alternatives will still exist; while now having to actually be accoutable in order to maintain relevance. The monopoly/duopoly situation is of course completely overrun by the fact that universities must also accept the new test.

Again, my thoughts are scattered so I may say more later; this is what I have for now though.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

My thoughts on this are kind of scattered, but...the main thing here for me is that if nationalization is something we are doing here, then it’s at the very least something that we need to get absolutely right on one go. And I’m not sure about that here.

First of all, the move being made in this bill appears to be replacing the SAT with a new test while eliminating the AP program entirely; which personally I feel should be the other way around; the single test score is far more useless than a program which at least provides some consistent level of higher tier teaching (even if the curriculum is not done the best way). As Truman said, the main issue with AP is that it very actively encourages “teaching for the test”, which is almost never a great way of teaching. Modifying/changing the AP to fix this would be something I strongly support; eliminating it because of a belief that every single student should have to take the exact same classes at the same levels is something I believe is wrong and extremely authoritarian.

The problem with CB is technically not even that it exists or that it’s programs exist: I see it’s problems as threefold.

1. It’s a test which nearly every competitive college requires you to take for a chance at admission, and you have to take their test (or ACT’s) creating a monopoly/duopoly. For AP it’s an extremely strong monopoly as colleges in the US/Atlasia don’t really play that nice with IB/A-levels/etc. The monopolies here are perpetuated by both public and private colleges.

2. Despite this, CB/ACT etc. are completely unaccountable organizations, so the students of Atlasia are basically bound by whatever they choose to test, however they choose to hold then, etc

3. Despite being ostensibly a nonprofit, they charge high fees for their exams ($50 for SATs, close to $100 for each AP), while paying million dollar salaries to their top executives while still ending up with a reasonably large surplus (which in this case we have another name for in the business world which they aren’t really supposed to have).


I mean, if we are concerned about too sweeping a solution, a potential alternative from the federal level I propose is this: the federal goverment creates their own tear and then requires that all colleges must accept the federal test in lieu of the SAT or any other such exam if am applying student so chooses. This still allows flexibility, and allows the regions to still set up their own testing; and for those who will inevitably say “but government testing is bad” the other alternatives will still exist; while now having to actually be accoutable in order to maintain relevance. The monopoly/duopoly situation is of course completely overrun by the fact that universities must also accept the new test.

Again, my thoughts are scattered so I may say more later; this is what I have for now though.

Now lets probe to an important point, what is inducing the universities to require the SAT?