Minor Party and Independent General Election Discussion

[GlobeSoc]

https://mobile.twitter.com/HowieHawkins/status/1314400215756046339

I’m more than willing to accept the PSL from taking the electoral mantle away from the Green Party at this point. The reactionary boomer leadership, vaccine denialism, and allowing factions and state chapters to wreck your campaign shouldn’t be tolerated anymore.

you should vote PSL

[PSOL]

https://mobile.twitter.com/HowieHawkins/status/1314400215756046339

I’m more than willing to accept the PSL from taking the electoral mantle away from the Green Party at this point. The reactionary boomer leadership, vaccine denialism, and allowing factions and state chapters to wreck your campaign shouldn’t be tolerated anymore.

you should vote PSL

A bit too late for that now.

[BaldEagle1991]

This third party debate should be on The CW for the lols.

[AltWorlder]

The Workers World Party is definitely behind the PSL, but I get the impression it's a distant second. For instance, I see Alyson Kennedy getting the smallest bit of acknowledgement in "here's the 3rd party candidates" articles like this one. Makes me wish she was at the debate so we can see her and Gloria La Riva do dueling vanguards in person.

It's super-disappointing that they've never gotten all the tiny socialist/communist parties, all of the libertarian parties, all the tiny centrist parties, all the Constitution Party far right split-offs, etc., to each do their own debates.

[PSOL]

The Workers World Party is definitely behind the PSL, but I get the impression it's a distant second. For instance, I see Alyson Kennedy getting the smallest bit of acknowledgement in "here's the 3rd party candidates" articles like this one. Makes me wish she was at the debate so we can see her and Gloria La Riva do dueling vanguards in person.

It's super-disappointing that they've never gotten all the tiny socialist/communist parties, all of the libertarian parties, all the tiny centrist parties, all the Constitution Party far right split-offs, etc., to each do their own debates.

I think you mean the SWP, and no, they aren’t in distant second to the PSL. The former is irrelevant in the scene of the left as a socially reactionary party without presence “on the street” and the WWP is so irrelevant that I only discovered it was apart of NAARP yesterday.

Yeah, maybe that would stimulate a clash of sorts.

[AltWorlder]

I think you mean the SWP, and no, they aren’t in distant second to the PSL. The former is irrelevant in the scene of the left as a socially reactionary party without presence “on the street” and the WWP is so irrelevant that I only discovered it was apart of NAARP yesterday.

The SWP is currently on six state ballots and has write-in status in six other states. Wonder how they're doing so decently, could it just be easy states to get access on?

[StateBoiler]

For all the splintered far left, there was a humorous discussion about what made them all different at Ballot Access News:

http://ballot-access.org/2020/02/01/socialist-workers-party-announces-national-ticket-3/

[Unbeatable Titan Susan Collins]

https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/520655-kanye-west-calls-for-write-in-campaign-in-his-first-2020-ad

Kanye has his first ad

[BaldEagle1991]

https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/520655-kanye-west-calls-for-write-in-campaign-in-his-first-2020-ad

Kanye has his first ad

Hopefully he doesn't go full Bloomberg on us with ads.

[PSOL]

For all the splintered far left, there was a humorous discussion about what made them all different at Ballot Access News:

http://ballot-access.org/2020/02/01/socialist-workers-party-announces-national-ticket-3/

That’s a bit of an unfair assessment if you look at the material conditions that brought us here.

Firstly, starting with the mother of all of American Leftism, the Socialist Party of America is the root of most of these groups through it expelling its members sympathetic to eitherTrotsky or Stalin, which was in its history the utmost majority of its members purged from the top. This had the effect of getting rid of most labor leaders and the lower strata of the working class. The SPA stagnated for decades until breaking apart into what became the right (DSA) and Left (SPUSA, arguably the Green Party, LUP, and PFP) of self-identified socialists against revolution.

CPUSA, in being a party adhering to Soviet line, was cursed in both getting unhelpful orders from the Comintern that damaged party support and being target #1 of the alphabet security agencies. Poor decisions like abandoning the national question, purges of Orthodox MLs, and alienation of immigrants and minorities in being the Democratic Party’s b!tch caused major splits that gave us both the New Communist Movement Inspired by Mao Tsedung thought and the anti revisionism of Hoxha (PLP, Black Panthers & Co., FRSO, SDS in its later years before becoming insurrectionary fools, and the Avakian cult) and our Trot parties.

So the SWP broke apart into the husk very similar to CPUSA actually; a lack of change for the times, ideological rigidness, reactionary festations, failure to remain relevant, etc. although it had the opposite problem with CPUSA in that it failed to make alliances with the more moderate socialist and social democrats in the worst of times. This gave birth to all our trot parties one way or another. More interestingly is the zealousness of converts against what was being perceived as the shortcomings of thinking that we’ve never past the 1930’s. Coupled with the revolutions in Vietnam and Latin America, along with the SWP being against the invasions in Hungary and Czechoslovakia, the now ML Sam Marcy and his posse broke apart from them to form the next big thing—the Workers World Party.

Now the WWP is interesting for modernizing the left here in ways that match up to the influence of the NCM and new left. A commitment to stringent anti-imperialism against capitalism, Warsaw Pact simping, and being fully on board with advancing the rights of people that weren’t heterosexual, American-integrated white workers. The WWP is in no doubt a major reason for the militancy that led to great strides in rights for LGBTQ+ folks like me. It also grew rapidly in the age of Vietnam, like the peaceniks. Unlike the peaceniks, the complete and abject rumpification happened after the crazy counterculture was done. Idiotic attempts of turning to industry, where all party members must work at the same place, recreated the cultish and suffocated atmosphere in the SWP. Along with a couple mistakes, it was no wonder when Marcy died, there was a split. The most relevant one made the PSL, and the rest has thrown the WWP in the dustbin of history.

So those peaceniks, kinda inspired by Trotsky and social democracy, but hip with being about peace and the environment to appease to the pet issues of middle class college kids, was encapsulated in the work of Murray Bookchin. In the latter end of the 20th century; a coalition of environmentalists, hippies, rigid radical liberals, and peaceniks formed the Green Party. After another split between environmental fundamentalists, we have our modern party that is now going through some shedding to inevitably create more minor joke parties.

Now, we have differences in strategy and orientation in the US, which have equal adherence based on isolation and our unique history, of the following cleavages; Marxism vs revisionism (SocDems), revolution vs reformism, Electoralism vs Abstentionism, Sectarianism vs cooperation, the vanguard party versus the decentralized mass party. The most major parties that currently matter, in my opinion; are the Green Party, PSL, FRSO, SAlt, arguably CPUSA (if you don’t think they’re Feds), and arguably the PFP. The remainder have stagnated beyond relief into microsects (Socialist Action, SWP, RCP, SEP, controversially most Black Panther cosplayers excluding the BRLP and NABPP) or have aligned themselves into electoral and activist alliances and poles completely (I theorize with SPUSA and the smaller trots submitting significantly to the Green Party as a reformist electoral league, with SAlt sometimes participating when they feel like it —the APL, WWP, and oddly CPUSA to the NAAPR actively led by the FRSO as the Marxist-Leninist league mainly active in activism and committed to revolution—LUP and PFP now in the Marxist electoral lane with PSL). So that is six-ish major actors organized around 4 aligning poles; that isn’t too hard to understand now, is it?

Add in the Antifa movement and insurrectionary anarchists(CrimethInc), along with mutual aid groups and unions like Food Not Bombs, [blank] collective, and the IWW and you have the whole American left . The point I’m trying to make is that the American Left is not that divided, and that the current amount of parties only seems that way as excessive if you ignore that half of them are basically insolvent and broke apart due to long-standing issues that are irreparable for organizations advocating real structural change, no matter if they are decentralized mass movements or Vanguard parties ordering all Cadres to obey by Democratic Centralism. So please, give the left a break.

Same thing is visible with all the ego-driven liberal and moderate parties, such as the massive mess left by the Reform Party or the numerous Nazi and Archconservative parties locked out of power. We can’t all have nice, rich backers like the propertarians do—and even then you can look at the splits and purges of vulgar libertarians, AnCaps, paleocons, Freemen on the land fools, and crypto-Republicans for them. Anything not D or R, that isn’t threading that much to Capital  resembles the fringe in totality.

[PSOL]

Oh yeah, also apart of the Left are weird Kautskyites that straddle the border of Left Communism and social democracy. These groups include the DSA arguably, the LUP, and the PFP. Basically pacifist Marxists to the Left of social democracy.

[StateBoiler]

For all the splintered far left, there was a humorous discussion about what made them all different at Ballot Access News:

http://ballot-access.org/2020/02/01/socialist-workers-party-announces-national-ticket-3/

That’s a bit of an unfair assessment if you look at the material conditions that brought us here.

Firstly, starting with the mother of all of American Leftism, the Socialist Party of America is the root of most of these groups through it expelling its members sympathetic to eitherTrotsky or Stalin, which was in its history the utmost majority of its members purged from the top. This had the effect of getting rid of most labor leaders and the lower strata of the working class. The SPA stagnated for decades until breaking apart into what became the right (DSA) and Left (SPUSA, arguably the Green Party, LUP, and PFP) of self-identified socialists against revolution.

CPUSA, in being a party adhering to Soviet line, was cursed in both getting unhelpful orders from the Comintern that damaged party support and being target #1 of the alphabet security agencies. Poor decisions like abandoning the national question, purges of Orthodox MLs, and alienation of immigrants and minorities in being the Democratic Party’s b!tch caused major splits that gave us both the New Communist Movement Inspired by Mao Tsedung thought and the anti revisionism of Hoxha (PLP, Black Panthers & Co., FRSO, SDS in its later years before becoming insurrectionary fools, and the Avakian cult) and our Trot parties.

So the SWP broke apart into the husk very similar to CPUSA actually; a lack of change for the times, ideological rigidness, reactionary festations, failure to remain relevant, etc. although it had the opposite problem with CPUSA in that it failed to make alliances with the more moderate socialist and social democrats in the worst of times. This gave birth to all our trot parties one way or another. More interestingly is the zealousness of converts against what was being perceived as the shortcomings of thinking that we’ve never past the 1930’s. Coupled with the revolutions in Vietnam and Latin America, along with the SWP being against the invasions in Hungary and Czechoslovakia, the now ML Sam Marcy and his posse broke apart from them to form the next big thing—the Workers World Party.

Now the WWP is interesting for modernizing the left here in ways that match up to the influence of the NCM and new left. A commitment to stringent anti-imperialism against capitalism, Warsaw Pact simping, and being fully on board with advancing the rights of people that weren’t heterosexual, American-integrated white workers. The WWP is in no doubt a major reason for the militancy that led to great strides in rights for LGBTQ+ folks like me. It also grew rapidly in the age of Vietnam, like the peaceniks. Unlike the peaceniks, the complete and abject rumpification happened after the crazy counterculture was done. Idiotic attempts of turning to industry, where all party members must work at the same place, recreated the cultish and suffocated atmosphere in the SWP. Along with a couple mistakes, it was no wonder when Marcy died, there was a split. The most relevant one made the PSL, and the rest has thrown the WWP in the dustbin of history.

So those peaceniks, kinda inspired by Trotsky and social democracy, but hip with being about peace and the environment to appease to the pet issues of middle class college kids, was encapsulated in the work of Murray Bookchin. In the latter end of the 20th century; a coalition of environmentalists, hippies, rigid radical liberals, and peaceniks formed the Green Party. After another split between environmental fundamentalists, we have our modern party that is now going through some shedding to inevitably create more minor joke parties.

Now, we have differences in strategy and orientation in the US, which have equal adherence based on isolation and our unique history, of the following cleavages; Marxism vs revisionism (SocDems), revolution vs reformism, Electoralism vs Abstentionism, Sectarianism vs cooperation, the vanguard party versus the decentralized mass party. The most major parties that currently matter, in my opinion; are the Green Party, PSL, FRSO, SAlt, arguably CPUSA (if you don’t think they’re Feds), and arguably the PFP. The remainder have stagnated beyond relief into microsects (Socialist Action, SWP, RCP, SEP, controversially most Black Panther cosplayers excluding the BRLP and NABPP) or have aligned themselves into electoral and activist alliances and poles completely (I theorize with SPUSA and the smaller trots submitting significantly to the Green Party as a reformist electoral league, with SAlt sometimes participating when they feel like it —the APL, WWP, and oddly CPUSA to the NAAPR actively led by the FRSO as the Marxist-Leninist league mainly active in activism and committed to revolution—LUP and PFP now in the Marxist electoral lane with PSL). So that is six-ish major actors organized around 4 aligning poles; that isn’t too hard to understand now, is it?

Add in the Antifa movement and insurrectionary anarchists(CrimethInc), along with mutual aid groups and unions like Food Not Bombs, [blank] collective, and the IWW and you have the whole American left . The point I’m trying to make is that the American Left is not that divided, and that the current amount of parties only seems that way as excessive if you ignore that half of them are basically insolvent and broke apart due to long-standing issues that are irreparable for organizations advocating real structural change, no matter if they are decentralized mass movements or Vanguard parties ordering all Cadres to obey by Democratic Centralism. So please, give the left a break.

Same thing is visible with all the ego-driven liberal and moderate parties, such as the massive mess left by the Reform Party or the numerous Nazi and Archconservative parties locked out of power. We can’t all have nice, rich backers like the propertarians do—and even then you can look at the splits and purges of vulgar libertarians, AnCaps, paleocons, Freemen on the land fools, and crypto-Republicans for them. Anything not D or R, that isn’t threading that much to Capital  resembles the fringe in totality.

Good response and I can tell you have a lot of knowledge about the issue. I just liked the notion that the Socialist Workers Party abandoned Trotskyism philosophy, but retained the copyright on Trotsky's works and sued in court to keep it to be able to sell all the Trotskyism books to Trotskyist parties. How capitalist.

Why do you think Communist Party USA matters? What have they done since Gus Hall died?

You do say arguably the PFP matters, but what is the Peace & Freedom Party outside of 1-state ballot access in California that PSL has successfully carried out entryism to take over? That's really no different than what the modern-day Reform Party is as it does not have a ballot access affiliate now outside of Florida. It's just California ballot access alone can about guarantee you 7th place nationally, as Roseanne Barr can literally attest to.

One thing moving forward for 3rd parties is where with the exception of the Prohibition Party and maybe the Socialists, they would all die and that is that. Nowadays people keep zombie state party affiliates alive because the major parties put in place so many restrictions to ballot access that once you have ballot access, you do everything to keep it, and you can then say monetize that by giving it to presidential candidates. In the case of Michigan and I know Connecticut, the reason you keep the old name is to change the name requires starting the ballot access game all over again.

U.S. Taxpayers - Michigan (Constitution Party state affiliate keeping its former name)
Natural Law - Michigan (dead national party, holdover from the 1990s)
American Independent - California (dead national party, holdover from the 1960s/1970s)
Peace & Freedom - California (dead national party, their Wikipedia says they have a lot of state branches, but none of them are ever on the ballot, holdover from the 1960s)
Reform - Florida (see P&F above as far as state branches, holdover from the 1990s/2000s)
Independence - New York, Minnesota, South Carolina (Reform splinter state branches that carried on)

[PSOL]

I think they matter due to their size and history that makes them a feature on the left hashed on by Feds. The PFP, while probably not infiltrated, basically has massive power being in California.

[AltWorlder]

Pretty great guide to 2020 third party candidates from some independent news site called The Pavlovic Today. Detailed and useful for historical value.

[PSOL]

Workers’ Liberty endorses Hawkins

Not only is this group irrelevant to not have a Wikipedia page, but it’s also irrelevant to not be in the Online Leftverse. It’s a Trot org that only exists around its equally irrelevant organ. So that’s maybe a few more votes for Hawkins.

Still, I’d like to bump this thread just cause. It seems that, aside from the small SEP party and the internationally oriented LeftVoice publication, Trotskyist organizations generally support Howie Hawkins. Democratic Socialists and Social Democrats, individuals or organized groups,  are mostly with the Democratic Party aside from some DSA chapters and parties split between Hawkins and La Riva. MLs are an interesting case, as they either are probably abstaining or supporting Biden with the sole exception of the PSL. This can be wholly blamed on the lack of connections the party has to the various other organizations on the Left, excluding the PFP and the LUP, along with what I believe to be unwarranted fear by more revolutionary organizations that another Trump term could see them be dismantled by the authorities compared to a Biden presidency.

Even with continued growth of the party, ultimately it is wise to have allies then go alone. The PSL needs to start courting the other Marxist Leninist parties in a way to garner support for such ventures as running in elections or activism in the street, something that goes beyond having individual chapters do their own thing.

[GlobeSoc]

Workers’ Liberty endorses Hawkins

Not only is this group irrelevant to not have a Wikipedia page, but it’s also irrelevant to not be in the Online Leftverse. It’s a Trot org that only exists around its equally irrelevant organ. So that’s maybe a few more votes for Hawkins.

Still, I’d like to bump this thread just cause. It seems that, aside from the small SEP party and the internationally oriented LeftVoice publication, Trotskyist organizations generally support Howie Hawkins. Democratic Socialists and Social Democrats, individuals or organized groups,  are mostly with the Democratic Party aside from some DSA chapters and parties split between Hawkins and La Riva. MLs are an interesting case, as they either are probably abstaining or supporting Biden with the sole exception of the PSL. This can be wholly blamed on the lack of connections the party has to the various other organizations on the Left, excluding the PFP and the LUP, along with what I believe to be unwarranted fear by more revolutionary organizations that another Trump term could see them be dismantled by the authorities compared to a Biden presidency.

Even with continued growth of the party, ultimately it is wise to have allies then go alone. The PSL needs to start courting the other Marxist Leninist parties in a way to garner support for such ventures as running in elections or activism in the street, something that goes beyond having individual chapters do their own thing.

to be fair, it is likely that the PSL will be by far the largest Marxist-Leninist party in America after this election, so it would make sense that they would focus on just organizing on the ground rather than fighting interparty battles. Now the lack of courting DSA and co is more interesting, but ultimately i suspect that it is better for both of them that they stay in their separate lanes.

[Third Party]

Why do you think Communist Party USA matters? What have they done since Gus Hall died?

Good questions. CPUSA has been totally dead as an independent political party since Gus Hall died. After that, liberal Democrats took over. Nowadays, the "Communist" Party is nothing more than a fake satellite organization of the Democratic Party machine that orders its tiny number of followers to obediently vote for the Democrats in every election. Its previous leader, Sam Webb, a few years ago even came out of the closet and admitted that he was nothing more than a shameless Democrat. On the US left right now, only two parties matter in terms of third party electoral activity: the Green Party and the Party for Socialism and Liberation.

[PSOL]

Why do you think Communist Party USA matters? What have they done since Gus Hall died?

Good questions. CPUSA has been totally dead as an independent political party since Gus Hall died. After that, liberal Democrats took over. Nowadays, the "Communist" Party is nothing more than a fake satellite organization of the Democratic Party machine that orders its tiny number of followers to obediently vote for the Democrats in every election. Its previous leader, Sam Webb, a few years ago even came out of the closet and admitted that he was nothing more than a shameless Democrat. On the US left right now, only two parties matter in terms of third party electoral activity: the Green Party and the Party for Socialism and Liberation.

One of the most confusing aspects of CPUSA is that it holds a not-irrelevant position in the NAAPR with two orthodox Communist parties. Exactly what is with that?

[PSOL]

Before the (useless) second debate by F&E, can anyone in the know tell me about how the Libertarian, Alliance, and Solidarity Party are doing? Since we’ve already discussed the Greens, PSL, and Constitution to the comparative death—I feel like it’s important to discuss what the Libertarians and ASP are heading.

Have the Libertarians tamed their factional infighting after the primary? Exactly what has the Alliance Party campaigned themselves as? Is the ASP managing to attract a diverse voter base for this election? All these questions answered, and any more y’all want to spew, would be relevant before the election.

[beaver2.0]

Before the (useless) second debate by F&E, can anyone in the know tell me about how the Libertarian, Alliance, and Solidarity Party are doing? Since we’ve already discussed the Greens, PSL, and Constitution to the comparative death—I feel like it’s important to discuss what the Libertarians and ASP are heading.

Have the Libertarians tamed their factional infighting after the primary? Exactly what has the Alliance Party campaigned themselves as? Is the ASP managing to attract a diverse voter base for this election? All these questions answered, and any more y’all want to spew, would be relevant before the election.

Ballot access-wise, the ASP has exploded.  I didn't pay attention to them last time around but they've managed to either get on the ballot or be certified write-ins with access to 286 electoral votes which puts them in fourth place.  That's got to count for something, but I guess we'll see in November if they've managed to convince voters outside the pool of committed volunteers.

[AltWorlder]

There was some ASP Twitter drama this past weekend, past members grousing about alleged party purges and extremists going in. Most people aren't aware of it though, and it seems very inside baseball.

[StateBoiler]

Link thanks to BAN. A revitalized Alaskan Independence Party.

https://www.adn.com/politics/2020/10/18/promoting-god-family-and-country-alaskan-independence-party-reorganizes-ahead-of-election/

Before the (useless) second debate by F&E, can anyone in the know tell me about how the Libertarian, Alliance, and Solidarity Party are doing? Since we’ve already discussed the Greens, PSL, and Constitution to the comparative death—I feel like it’s important to discuss what the Libertarians and ASP are heading.

Have the Libertarians tamed their factional infighting after the primary?

Wouldn't call myself a party insider by any means, but I think most are happy with Jorgensen being the candidate. Think a lot are happy she's the first since Badnarik to not be a former Republican politician.

[PSOL]

There was some ASP Twitter drama this past weekend, past members grousing about alleged party purges and extremists going in. Most people aren't aware of it though, and it seems very inside baseball.

I’m wholly unsurprised by this. Still, may you give more details with links.

[AltWorlder]

There was some ASP Twitter drama this past weekend, past members grousing about alleged party purges and extremists going in. Most people aren't aware of it though, and it seems very inside baseball.

I’m wholly unsurprised by this. Still, may you give more details with links.

Long-ass thread here

https://twitter.com/SamRochadotcom/status/1317298226274267137

[PSOL]

There was some ASP Twitter drama this past weekend, past members grousing about alleged party purges and extremists going in. Most people aren't aware of it though, and it seems very inside baseball.

I’m wholly unsurprised by this. Still, may you give more details with links.

Long-ass thread here

https://twitter.com/SamRochadotcom/status/1317298226274267137

Well, I suppose we will see if the American Solidarity Party survives this with its current rhetoric. BRTD must be livid right now about this news.

What in the world is the Alliance Party & Co. even doing right now?

I have to give it to the Alaskan Independence Party, they’ve managed to find a niche in Alaskan politics as a regionalist Constitution-like party, in an era where paleocons are ceasing to be. It’s probably one of the most relevant regionalist parties in the United States in the current era.