Trump terminates Open Skies Treaty
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  Trump terminates Open Skies Treaty
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Author Topic: Trump terminates Open Skies Treaty  (Read 550 times)
President Johnson
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« on: May 21, 2020, 03:02:48 PM »

Another treaty, Trump terminates. While it concerns Russia, more looks like the actual reasons have not that much to di with Russia itsself.

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Libertas Vel Mors
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2020, 03:28:29 PM »

Before everyone gets upset about this, it's worth it to read the article and understand the reasoning involved. This is not being weak on Russia. This is not inviting nuclear war. What this is is something that we should all be agreeing on, and that is a common sense move with the size of China. We signed this treaty back when China was not a major threat, and Russia was. It was a good treaty at the time. But today, we have several factors to consider that weren't present at the time:

1. Direct Evidence of Russian duplicity. We know from intelligence reports that the Russians aren't following the treaty. Why should we stay in a treaty where we're the only ones obeying the terms?

2. China is not a member of this treaty. China is the biggest threat we face now, but they are not constrained in their building by this treaty. What is the point of handicapping ourself if both of our superpower threats are not doing the same?

I'd genuinely like to see an intelligent explanation for staying in, because I can't think of a credible one.
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Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin
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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2020, 11:21:35 PM »

Before everyone gets upset about this, it's worth it to read the article and understand the reasoning involved. This is not being weak on Russia. This is not inviting nuclear war. What this is is something that we should all be agreeing on, and that is a common sense move with the size of China. We signed this treaty back when China was not a major threat, and Russia was. It was a good treaty at the time. But today, we have several factors to consider that weren't present at the time:

1. Direct Evidence of Russian duplicity. We know from intelligence reports that the Russians aren't following the treaty. Why should we stay in a treaty where we're the only ones obeying the terms?

2. China is not a member of this treaty. China is the biggest threat we face now, but they are not constrained in their building by this treaty. What is the point of handicapping ourself if both of our superpower threats are not doing the same?

I'd genuinely like to see an intelligent explanation for staying in, because I can't think of a credible one.

Some relevant links:
https://armscontrolcenter.org/treaty-open-skies/
https://openskies.flights/

The "China is not a participant" claim is horse poop. The treaty allows for (unarmed, surveillance) overflights of signatories by other signatories, mostly overflights of Russian territory by NATO members, and of NATO territory by Russian aircraft. China neither gains nor is hindered by the treaty, nor is US behavior regarding China affected by the OST or its absence. While Russia has not been a perfect participant, the treaty works. "Russian duplicity" is a handful of instances out of over fifteen hundred surveillance flights.

Benefits to the US from withdrawing:


We no longer have to allow Russian overflights of US territory. (Which for reasons technical and practical made up only a fraction of total surveillance flights by Russia.)

"Sending Russia a message" by cutting off entirely our own right to overfly Russian airspace (or access aerial surveillance information on Russian and other nations that was openly available to us under the treaty) as "retaliation" for a handful of instances (out of over fifteen hundred overflights) were we didn't like Russian behavior.



Benefits to Russia from US withdrawal:

The US is no longer able to overfly Russian territory.

The US is no longer able to access data from allies' surveillance flights over Russian and other territories.

The end of a treaty that disproportionately favored the US in practice. (It's all equal on paper, but the US does considerably more overflights of Russian than vice versa.)

Russia doesn't suffer the international PR hit of pulling out of the treaty.

The United States does take an international PR hit for pulling out of the treaty, especially with NATO's European members.

It damages the relations between the US and its traditional European allies (against Russia),

European treaty participants are now subject to proportionately more Russian surveillance.

Europeans face a downturn in their own surveillance over Russia, because they will be losing both access to the United States' flight quota, and to US hardware.

This surveillance is also individually more important to the Europeans than the US, since many NATO members lack their own surveillance satellites. The absence of US hardware probably can be remedied in time.



In short, the coward Donald Trump and his treacherous band of liars, cheats, and crooks are doing a solid for their buddy Putin.
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ProudModerate2
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2020, 01:59:31 PM »

I thought this had ended back in the 1990's.
Surprise.
In any case, I'm on the fence about this treaty, and appreciate the analysis from all the posts above.
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Arizona Iced Tea
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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2020, 09:49:08 PM »

Good to see President Trump participate in foreign policy during this time, I thought he was fully focused on the domestic issues, but pleasantly surprised to realize he is also helping American on the world's stage.
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brucejoel99
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2020, 10:18:01 PM »
« Edited: May 24, 2020, 11:07:15 PM by brucejoel99 »

As usual, Trump is all for anything that benefits Putin & hurts the U.S.

I'd genuinely like to see an intelligent explanation for staying in, because I can't think of a credible one.

Not having short-notice aerial surveillance over Putin's military installations & formations, for one thing. Unlike the U.S., most of Russia's military operations aren't expeditionary, & occur near their borders. Activity on a U.S. base can mean almost anything because we deploy all over the world. Activity on a given Russian base generally has fewer ways in which it can be interpreted. Also, as a relatively open society, a lot of our information is already publicly available. Satellites have known trajectories so they're relatively easy to hide from. Aircraft don't have this problem. In other words, Open Skies is an information & intelligence advantage for the U.S., but less so for Russia. Dropping out hurts us more than it hurts them.

Secondly, if Russia isn't overflying us & our allies anymore, it can essentially say anything it wants about what we're doing. Right now, say Putin claimed that we're building up a massive military force on the Mexican border. The natural question from the rest of the world would be: where's your proof? You have Open Skies so there should be volumes of pictures. Now he has plausible deniability, with the cherry on top being that he can claim we pulled out specifically to hide our own nefarious activities.

The U.S. military & diplomatic corps both strongly supported Open Skies.
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President Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2020, 12:06:16 AM »

Withdrawing from this policy is stupid from a geopolitical perspective, even if Russia was skirting the treaty's provisions in many areas.
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