2020 Census and Redistricting Thread: Minnesota

[Nyvin]

Yeah, folks without Minnesota ties do like putting the Cities together, but that would never, ever happen (and I appreciate you acknowledging that it wouldn't!) unless Republicans got a trifecta and really felt like flexing their muscles. Keeping Minneapolis and St. Paul separate is sacrosanct.

Why do you want to crack the Hmong population?

It's not exactly "cracking" if they've literally never been together in the same district ever in history.

[Sol]

Is the Hmong community in Minneapolis even that big? The Asian population is only about 6% in Mpls., and that's not all going to be Hmong.

[jimrtex]

Is the Hmong community in Minneapolis even that big? The Asian population is only about 6% in Mpls., and that's not all going to be Hmong.

They did elect a council member.

It appears that if you need to include Brooklyn Park and Brooklyn Center to pick up most of the Hennepin Hmong's. That would also increase the African-American population. There is a considerable Somali population in St. Paul as well.

Minneapolis and St.Paul are about 85K short of  sufficient population for a district. Brooklyn Center and most of Brooklyn Park would satisfy that. Maybe shave a bit of SW Minneapolis into the Hennepin district. I'd probably go ahead and include St.Anthony with Minneapolis.

So we have
Minneapolis-St.Paul-Brooklyn Park/Center
Hennepin
Anoka-Ramsey North-Washington North
Dakota-Scott-Carver-Washington South.

Perhaps bits and pieces of Wright and Sherbourne to get up to enough population for four districts.

We're going to have to cheat a bit to keep an "Iron Range" district while keeping it separate from the Red River. That may determine where St.Cloud goes, perhaps maintaining the current split of Stearns County.

[Brittain33]

Hmong population in the twin cities is estimated at about 60,000, which is about 8% of a single congressional district’s population. I don’t think that their ability to elect the candidate of their choice would stand up as a rationale in court.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Is anyone taking into account that the Minnesota Supreme Court is 5D-2R when drawing these maps? The notion they'd draw a map that combines the Twin Cities and hurts the DFL as a result is kind of laughable.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm not sure if Scott County is really a great fit with Dakota County--maybe some of the more Minneapolis-y parts like Apple Valley or w/e but isn't the bulk of Dakota more St. Paul oriented?

That's a really superb map--it's frustrating that a district combining the St. Paul suburbia and the Minneapolis suburbia has to be drawn, but after criticizing someone else's map for it earlier it became clear when I played with the boundaries myself that it's impossible to avoid.

The only nitpick I have is that Chisago and Isanti might be better fits in the Blue seat--they're kind of exurban Minneapolis zones like Sherburne.

If one was doing a California-style map which elevates CoI over county lines, I might would trade territory to put Elk River in the purple--but that's probably not the right approach for Minnesota.

You're overthinking it. No one outside of first-ring inner suburbs and/or who live directly east/west of the Twin Cities thinks of themselves as living in a "Minneapolis suburb" or "St. Paul suburb" or at least enough to particularly care about this or be combined politically. People are probably thinking of Eagan as a "St. Paul suburb" for example but when I'm not working at home my commute to there is about as long as commuting from certain areas in St. Paul. And because of the way I-35 splits Chisago and Isanti are about equidistant to both.

Combining Dakota County with Scott County is perfectly fine because both are thought of as simply "south metro". Also Apple Valley is 24 minutes from downtown Minneapolis and 25 minutes from downtown St. Paul to illustrate the point above.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

And with the brown CD having a new design, you could adjust the mini county chops in the Twin Cities metro area between the red, tan and brown CD's like this:



It is quite surprising to me how many people some of those relatively far northern counties have, e.g., Crow Wing with some 64,000 people, a bit more than my county, Columbia, in NY has, which is hardly in the middle of nowhere. I wonder what life is like up there.

Crow Wing isn't really that remote. It's based around Brainerd, which is a regional center. It's not a very big town, but it does have what are basically suburbs even if that's uncommon for a town of its size, Baxter is about half of its size for example. As for what life is like up there, in addition to being a center for shopping and transportation for the whole region it's an area with heavy tourism, due to all the lakes. Lots of Twin Citians have lakeside cabins there. If anyone has ever seen the movie Young Adult, I'm pretty sure that "Mercury" is based on Brainerd (it's mostly likely a composite of various outstate Minnesota towns Diablo Cody had in mind, but the end result ended up resembling Brainerd more than anywhere else.) Also Fargo is mostly set around Brainerd despite the title. Frances McDormand's character is explicitly said to be the Brainerd police chief.

Also home to this amusement park, which I have many fond childhood memories of going to, and thus this music video really hit home for me (even if the band and song weren't both fantastic!)

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Here is a 5-3 GOP map based on the 2016 Prez results. I'm really curious if Biden won this hypothetical MN-4 district.

Why would the MN Supreme Court draw a GOP gerrymander (even if a somewhat mild one)?

[jimrtex]

Hmong population in the twin cities is estimated at about 60,000, which is about 8% of a single congressional district’s population. I don’t think that their ability to elect the candidate of their choice would stand up as a rationale in court.

Who said it was a legal requirement?

Why should suburbs be placed in inner city dominated districts?

The argument made against a Twin Cities districts is "we don't like it" and we remember when Minneapolis had its own district.

But then you are conflict with the reality that you are chopping up suburbs to a greater extent to keep Minneapolis and St.Paul apart.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Hmong population in the twin cities is estimated at about 60,000, which is about 8% of a single congressional district’s population. I don’t think that their ability to elect the candidate of their choice would stand up as a rationale in court.

Who said it was a legal requirement?

Why should suburbs be placed in inner city dominated districts?

The argument made against a Twin Cities districts is "we don't like it" and we remember when Minneapolis had its own district.

But then you are conflict with the reality that you are chopping up suburbs to a greater extent to keep Minneapolis and St.Paul apart.

The answer to the second question is that's what the DFL wants, and the MN Supreme Court has a 5-2 DFL majority.

[Brittain33]

Hmong population in the twin cities is estimated at about 60,000, which is about 8% of a single congressional district’s population. I don’t think that their ability to elect the candidate of their choice would stand up as a rationale in court.

Who said it was a legal requirement?

Why should suburbs be placed in inner city dominated districts?

The argument made against a Twin Cities districts is "we don't like it" and we remember when Minneapolis had its own district.

But then you are conflict with the reality that you are chopping up suburbs to a greater extent to keep Minneapolis and St.Paul apart.

People in suburbs aren’t inherently worthier or better than people in “inner cities”, Jim.

What’s the population of the “inner city” within St. Paul?

[Nyvin]

Hmong population in the twin cities is estimated at about 60,000, which is about 8% of a single congressional district’s population. I don’t think that their ability to elect the candidate of their choice would stand up as a rationale in court.

Who said it was a legal requirement?

Why should suburbs be placed in inner city dominated districts?

The argument made against a Twin Cities districts is "we don't like it" and we remember when Minneapolis had its own district.

But then you are conflict with the reality that you are chopping up suburbs to a greater extent to keep Minneapolis and St.Paul apart.

What's gained by crossing county borders needlessly to put them together?  Are people in inner cities sub-human or something?

[jimrtex]

Hmong population in the twin cities is estimated at about 60,000, which is about 8% of a single congressional district’s population. I don’t think that their ability to elect the candidate of their choice would stand up as a rationale in court.

Who said it was a legal requirement?

Why should suburbs be placed in inner city dominated districts?

The argument made against a Twin Cities districts is "we don't like it" and we remember when Minneapolis had its own district.

But then you are conflict with the reality that you are chopping up suburbs to a greater extent to keep Minneapolis and St.Paul apart.

People in suburbs aren’t inherently worthier or better than people in “inner cities”, Jim.

What’s the population of the “inner city” within St. Paul?

The community among African-Americans, Somalis, Hispanics, and Hmongs, is strong regardless whether they live in St. Paul, Minneapolis, Brooklyn Center, or Brooklyn Park.

You've already crossed the Mississippi River in Minneapolis so that is not a barrier to be kept.

Who said anything about inherent worthiness, "Brittain33"?

[jimrtex]

Hmong population in the twin cities is estimated at about 60,000, which is about 8% of a single congressional district’s population. I don’t think that their ability to elect the candidate of their choice would stand up as a rationale in court.

Who said it was a legal requirement?

Why should suburbs be placed in inner city dominated districts?

The argument made against a Twin Cities districts is "we don't like it" and we remember when Minneapolis had its own district.

But then you are conflict with the reality that you are chopping up suburbs to a greater extent to keep Minneapolis and St.Paul apart.

What's gained by crossing county borders needlessly to put them together?  Are people in inner cities sub-human or something?

Hennepin must be split. Are you aware of that?

[Nyvin]

Hmong population in the twin cities is estimated at about 60,000, which is about 8% of a single congressional district’s population. I don’t think that their ability to elect the candidate of their choice would stand up as a rationale in court.

Who said it was a legal requirement?

Why should suburbs be placed in inner city dominated districts?

The argument made against a Twin Cities districts is "we don't like it" and we remember when Minneapolis had its own district.

But then you are conflict with the reality that you are chopping up suburbs to a greater extent to keep Minneapolis and St.Paul apart.

What's gained by crossing county borders needlessly to put them together?  Are people in inner cities sub-human or something?

Hennepin must be split. Are you aware of that?

Ramsey does not.   Hennepin is much better paired with Anoka, which it almost perfectly forms two districts worth of population.

I really don't know why you always post smug comments like this.

[lfromnj]

Hmong population in the twin cities is estimated at about 60,000, which is about 8% of a single congressional district’s population. I don’t think that their ability to elect the candidate of their choice would stand up as a rationale in court.

Who said it was a legal requirement?

Why should suburbs be placed in inner city dominated districts?

The argument made against a Twin Cities districts is "we don't like it" and we remember when Minneapolis had its own district.

But then you are conflict with the reality that you are chopping up suburbs to a greater extent to keep Minneapolis and St.Paul apart.

What's gained by crossing county borders needlessly to put them together?  Are people in inner cities sub-human or something?

Hennepin must be split. Are you aware of that?

Ramsey does not.   Hennepin is much better paired with Anoka, which it almost perfectly forms two districts worth of population.

I really don't know why you always post smug comments like this.

I mean in the scenario where you combine the cities, the rest of Hennepin is exactly 1 district assuming you start from there, and the rest of Ramsey +Anoka+ Washington is also 1 district + a few thousand.

The main reason not to draw it in a purely non partisan map is because local community demands do form what constitutes a COI. Considering how long the separate district tradition has held up I think its reasonable to keep the 2 cities separate but overall combining them works pretty well . If I didn't know Minnesota politics I would probably combine them.

 Red just has to take a 120k more from either Wright or Rice and Goodhue. And obviously the court is highly unlikely to draw it due to tradition/city demands/ the fact it could slightly hurt the DFL but I am just mentioning it as a fun exercise.


Anyway here is a more DFL friendly version of keeping the cities together. Blue is Clinton +10 and the other are barely Clinton +1.

If for example I was in head of a Minnesota commission my opinion would be to generally keep the cities separate at first but then ask local community leaders in the inner ring suburbs of St. Paul/Minneapolis such as  Edina and ask if they desire to be placed in separate districts. If both the suburbs/cities are fine with the separate district for each city then obviously that would be the go to plan. However if the cities are still adamant about being separate but the suburbs would want to push the cities together then one would have to make a tougher decision.

[Brittain33]

Hmong population in the twin cities is estimated at about 60,000, which is about 8% of a single congressional district’s population. I don’t think that their ability to elect the candidate of their choice would stand up as a rationale in court.

Who said it was a legal requirement?

Why should suburbs be placed in inner city dominated districts?

The argument made against a Twin Cities districts is "we don't like it" and we remember when Minneapolis had its own district.

But then you are conflict with the reality that you are chopping up suburbs to a greater extent to keep Minneapolis and St.Paul apart.

People in suburbs aren’t inherently worthier or better than people in “inner cities”, Jim.

What’s the population of the “inner city” within St. Paul?

The community among African-Americans, Somalis, Hispanics, and Hmongs, is strong regardless whether they live in St. Paul, Minneapolis, Brooklyn Center, or Brooklyn Park.

You've already crossed the Mississippi River in Minneapolis so that is not a barrier to be kept.

Who said anything about inherent worthiness, "Brittain33"?

What’s the population of the inner city of St. Paul that you argue would “dominate” the district of ~800,000 people?

[jimrtex]

Hmong population in the twin cities is estimated at about 60,000, which is about 8% of a single congressional district’s population. I don’t think that their ability to elect the candidate of their choice would stand up as a rationale in court.

Who said it was a legal requirement?

Why should suburbs be placed in inner city dominated districts?

The argument made against a Twin Cities districts is "we don't like it" and we remember when Minneapolis had its own district.

But then you are conflict with the reality that you are chopping up suburbs to a greater extent to keep Minneapolis and St.Paul apart.

People in suburbs aren’t inherently worthier or better than people in “inner cities”, Jim.

What’s the population of the “inner city” within St. Paul?

The community among African-Americans, Somalis, Hispanics, and Hmongs, is strong regardless whether they live in St. Paul, Minneapolis, Brooklyn Center, or Brooklyn Park.

You've already crossed the Mississippi River in Minneapolis so that is not a barrier to be kept.

Who said anything about inherent worthiness, "Brittain33"?

What’s the population of the inner city of St. Paul that you argue would “dominate” the district of ~800,000 people?

A large single area of 320,000 population will tend to dominate the district. The representative of the 4th lives in Minneapolis, and for the 5th lives in St.Paul.

[Brittain33]

Hmong population in the twin cities is estimated at about 60,000, which is about 8% of a single congressional district’s population. I don’t think that their ability to elect the candidate of their choice would stand up as a rationale in court.

Who said it was a legal requirement?

Why should suburbs be placed in inner city dominated districts?

The argument made against a Twin Cities districts is "we don't like it" and we remember when Minneapolis had its own district.

But then you are conflict with the reality that you are chopping up suburbs to a greater extent to keep Minneapolis and St.Paul apart.

People in suburbs aren’t inherently worthier or better than people in “inner cities”, Jim.

What’s the population of the “inner city” within St. Paul?

The community among African-Americans, Somalis, Hispanics, and Hmongs, is strong regardless whether they live in St. Paul, Minneapolis, Brooklyn Center, or Brooklyn Park.

You've already crossed the Mississippi River in Minneapolis so that is not a barrier to be kept.

Who said anything about inherent worthiness, "Brittain33"?

What’s the population of the inner city of St. Paul that you argue would “dominate” the district of ~800,000 people?

A large single area of 320,000 population will tend to dominate the district. The representative of the 4th lives in Minneapolis, and for the 5th lives in St.Paul.

What share of that 320,000 is “inner city” vs. neighborhoods not very different from adjacent suburbs?

[Brittain33]

Also, if domination by a jurisdiction (or an “inner city”) is a thing we have a compelling interest in avoiding, why is it ok for Minneapolis to dominate St. Paul but not for St. Paul to dominate smaller suburbs?

[Del Tachi]

Also, if domination by a jurisdiction (or an “inner city”) is a thing we have a compelling interest in avoiding, why is it ok for Minneapolis to dominate St. Paul but not for St. Paul to dominate smaller suburbs?

Because Minneapolis and St Paul have more in common than St. Paul and Cottage Grove?  Idk just a thought

[Idaho Conservative]

Yeah, folks without Minnesota ties do like putting the Cities together, but that would never, ever happen (and I appreciate you acknowledging that it wouldn't!) unless Republicans got a trifecta and really felt like flexing their muscles. Keeping Minneapolis and St. Paul separate is sacrosanct.

Why do you want to crack the Hmong population?

That's not what cracking is.  Also, it is tradition in MN each city gets its own district, I don't see that changing.  Neither party would have a reason to do that.  It would upset Twin Cities residents, the Dem base in the state, and make suburban seats bluer, which would upset Republicans.

[lfromnj]

Yeah, folks without Minnesota ties do like putting the Cities together, but that would never, ever happen (and I appreciate you acknowledging that it wouldn't!) unless Republicans got a trifecta and really felt like flexing their muscles. Keeping Minneapolis and St. Paul separate is sacrosanct.

Why do you want to crack the Hmong population?

That's not what cracking is.  Also, it is tradition in MN each city gets its own district, I don't see that changing.  Neither party would have a reason to do that.  It would upset Twin Cities residents, the Dem base in the state, and make suburban seats bluer, which would upset Republicans.

It doesn't really hurt the GOP, overall makes one Likely/Safe D seat a tossup/Lean D which isn't bad for them but its not an extreme move either.

[Brittain33]

Also, if domination by a jurisdiction (or an “inner city”) is a thing we have a compelling interest in avoiding, why is it ok for Minneapolis to dominate St. Paul but not for St. Paul to dominate smaller suburbs?

Because Minneapolis and St Paul have more in common than St. Paul and Cottage Grove?  Idk just a thought

Clearly, the people who live there and their elected officials don’t agree. This view seems to be coming from people outside who see these large cities as an undifferentiated mass of “inner city” to quote higher up in the thread.

[ilikeverin]

Also, if domination by a jurisdiction (or an “inner city”) is a thing we have a compelling interest in avoiding, why is it ok for Minneapolis to dominate St. Paul but not for St. Paul to dominate smaller suburbs?

Because Minneapolis and St Paul have more in common than St. Paul and Cottage Grove?  Idk just a thought

Clearly, the people who live there and their elected officials don’t agree. This view seems to be coming from people outside who see these large cities as an undifferentiated mass of “inner city” to quote higher up in the thread.

Yeah, it's pretty telling when every single Minnesotan who's wandered into this thread has been shocked and horrified to hear this proposed seriously (rather than as an intellectual exercise, which it is interesting to think about that way). I think folks in Cottage Grove would be pretty upset to see themselves geographically clustered with, say, Bloomington or Coon Rapids rather than with St. Paul.