This Once Great Movement Of Ours

[Blair]

I don't actually know for example what their policy on taxation was?

Yes, one of the big problems with the whole project was just that it was (is?) extremely, extremely woolly. There is actually some merit in noting that, in certain respects, social democracy is in part now a conservative concept (a heritage, inheritance and tradition to defend and build upon etc) and that, as such, there may be mileage in legacy socialist parties making this part of their appeal, but 'Blue Labour' never took much interest in that idea, preferring what often sounded like boozy post-research seminar waffle.

I'm always struck by the fact that John Major's much maligned speech about village greens and maidens on biycles could with some tweaks be made by a Labour politician & equally could be extremely powerful now.

[EastAnglianLefty]

Speaking of George Lansbury, someone apparently claimed recently that Labour was only ever a socialist party for four years of its existence (2015-2019). Corbyn wasn't even the most 'socialist' or 'left-wing' leader the party has ever had. Taking Hardie, early MacDonald, Lansbury and Foot into account, it wouldn't be entirely absurd to leave him out of the top three on that particular score.

For a lot of that tendency, what they mean is that those are the only years they voted for the party.

I don't actually know for example what their policy on taxation was?

Yes, one of the big problems with the whole project was just that it was (is?) extremely, extremely woolly. There is actually some merit in noting that, in certain respects, social democracy is in part now a conservative concept (a heritage, inheritance and tradition to defend and build upon etc) and that, as such, there may be mileage in legacy socialist parties making this part of their appeal, but 'Blue Labour' never took much interest in that idea, preferring what often sounded like boozy post-research seminar waffle.

It's notable that it got its start from Glasman's work with London Citizens, and within 6 months had switched to arguing that the sort of people who are part of London Citizens were the problem.

[Wiswylfen]

Speaking of George Lansbury, someone apparently claimed recently that Labour was only ever a socialist party for four years of its existence (2015-2019). Corbyn wasn't even the most 'socialist' or 'left-wing' leader the party has ever had. Taking Hardie, early MacDonald, Lansbury and Foot into account, it wouldn't be entirely absurd to leave him out of the top three on that particular score.

For a lot of that tendency, what they mean is that those are the only years they voted for the party.

I don't actually know for example what their policy on taxation was?

Yes, one of the big problems with the whole project was just that it was (is?) extremely, extremely woolly. There is actually some merit in noting that, in certain respects, social democracy is in part now a conservative concept (a heritage, inheritance and tradition to defend and build upon etc) and that, as such, there may be mileage in legacy socialist parties making this part of their appeal, but 'Blue Labour' never took much interest in that idea, preferring what often sounded like boozy post-research seminar waffle.

It's notable that it got its start from Glasman's work with London Citizens, and within 6 months had switched to arguing that the sort of people who are part of London Citizens were the problem.

I'd argue there's a distinction between 'Milbankites' and 'Emberyites' (we'll name the two after the men most emblematic of the tendencies): the former talk about 'Tory socialism' and will try to make the Blue Labour case for Remain or whatever; while the latter, usually starting from Lexit or anti-immigration grounds, have a Lee Anderson-esque tendency to quickly turn into self-parody and become indistinguishable from the dog pfps they desperately try to appeal to. There's some crossover, of course, George Owers/Capel Lofft being the perfect example.

Glasman's work is, even now, still rather straightforwardly 'Polanyian socialism'.

[EastAnglianLefty]

The other issue with Blue Labour is that it was a movement for people who cared about political theory which claimed to represent the views of a category of voters who whatever else they think, don't think about political theory at all.

[CumbrianLefty]

George Owers/Capel Lofft

In the top 10 of Twitter cranks, which takes some doing.

[Wiswylfen]

George Owers/Capel Lofft

In the top 10 of Twitter cranks, which takes some doing.

If I am not mistaken I believe one of us here knew him personally.

[MayorCarcetti]

Derek Draper has died aged 56after a well-publicised battle with COVID complications since March 2020. Better known as being the husband of TV presenter Kate Garraway in recent times and as celebrity psychotherapist, he was infamously caught up in two New Labour scandals - Lobbygate in 1998 and the Labourlist scandal in 2009. 

[Wiswylfen]

I don't actually know for example what their policy on taxation was?

Yes, one of the big problems with the whole project was just that it was (is?) extremely, extremely woolly. There is actually some merit in noting that, in certain respects, social democracy is in part now a conservative concept (a heritage, inheritance and tradition to defend and build upon etc) and that, as such, there may be mileage in legacy socialist parties making this part of their appeal, but 'Blue Labour' never took much interest in that idea, preferring what often sounded like boozy post-research seminar waffle.

I'm always struck by the fact that John Major's much maligned speech about village greens and maidens on biycles could with some tweaks be made by a Labour politician & equally could be extremely powerful now.

That is a very specific version of England, let alone Britain, and not at all in line with radical or industrial England. Its sheer alienness to the vast majority of the union--which hasn't changed--was one of the main reasons it was criticised and mocked at the time.

[CumbrianLefty]

Derek Draper has died aged 56after a well-publicised battle with COVID complications since March 2020. Better known as being the husband of TV presenter Kate Garraway in recent times and as celebrity psychotherapist, he was infamously caught up in two New Labour scandals - Lobbygate in 1998 and the Labourlist scandal in 2009. 

Despite its somewhat inauspicious start, LabourList is still going strong.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It would appear that Tony Lloyd's cancer is now terminal. MP for Rochdale since 2017, previously MP for the rather odd Stretford constituency 1983-97 and then Manchester Central 1997-2012. He was the Police and Crime Commissioner for Greater Manchester (and as the 'Interim Mayor' of the same during the same period) in between his two spells in the Commons. Chaired the PLP between 2006 and 2012 and was Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland from 2018 until he stepped down following his near-death from Covid in 2020. He was also, surreally, the Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland on an essentially interim basis from December 2019 until April 2020. He is seventy three.

[CumbrianLefty]

Well that is obviously sad, a terrific servant for the party down the years.

His selection for Rochdale in 2017 raised some eyebrows, but he has clearly been a stabilising factor in a sometimes highly fractious local party - especially given the mess his predecessor left.

(whose utterly derisory vote as an Independent in that election remains immensely cheering - is it true that he has gone full-fat Tory now?)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

(whose utterly derisory vote as an Independent in that election remains immensely cheering - is it true that he has gone full-fat Tory now?)

Yes. I think we can go a little further: he's gone full Woodrow Wyatt. And he also has a thirty year old Rwandan wife.

[CumbrianLefty]

I believe that one of his exes is now a politics reporter for BBC North West.

[Blair]

It would appear that Tony Lloyd's cancer is now terminal. MP for Rochdale since 2017, previously MP for the rather odd Stretford constituency 1983-97 and then Manchester Central 1997-2012. He was the Police and Crime Commissioner for Greater Manchester (and as the 'Interim Mayor' of the same during the same period) in between his two spells in the Commons. Chaired the PLP between 2006 and 2012 and was Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland from 2018 until he stepped down following his near-death from Covid in 2020. He was also, surreally, the Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland on an essentially interim basis from December 2019 until April 2020. He is seventy three.

Didn’t know he was from the ‘83 intake; what a career and set of parliaments he went through.

[CumbrianLefty]

That version of Stretford was quite close in his initial election, which shows how long ago it was now.

[afleitch]

https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/status/1746202202924884372

[CumbrianLefty]

The expectation is that both "sides" in this wretched "debate" should tune it down a bit when they are actually standing as Labour candidates - that does not seem to have happened in this case.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Hackney, alas, suffers from an unusual surfeit of Very Political People.

[Wiswylfen]

Hilarious that the workerist right (of which I count myself) sustains itself in London via alliances with people who rave about 'the oppressed sex class'. Open Labour (just like Duffield) and of course signed the Labour Campaign for Free Movement's statement. 'MSc in Gender from LSE' and then a public-sector career of 'stakeholder engagement' before one in a social enterprise that consults for charities. Couldn't make it up! Plague on the party.

[CumbrianLefty]

Not sure if Duffield is actually Open Labour anymore.

[Wiswylfen]

Not sure if Duffield is actually Open Labour anymore.

Not anymore.

[CumbrianLefty]

And the reason she isn't is her trans obsession, which only really took off a few years ago.

[Wiswylfen]

And the reason she isn't is her trans obsession, which only really took off a few years ago.

And she was part of it in the first place. I do not do this as a factional thing but it does seem clear that Open Labour is uniquely attractive to small-l liberals whose politics mainly consist of reacting to things and who have little interest in the Labour Party in and of itself. They latch on to unimportant, unpopular things like open borders (which the Labour Campaign for Free Movement advocates) (OK to be fair this one actually would be pretty important (and completely insane)), rejoining the EU, and, often, because let us not forget that it was a sensible liberal thing before the right took up the cause*, freaking out over the existence of transgender people.

Though no longer part of Open Labour it can be fairly said that she still belongs to that tribe: hence why her objections to joining the Conservatives (because of transgender people) are 'Brexit and immigration' rather than, you know, all the actual material harm caused by that party.

*I might add that for all that is said about Jolyon Maugham, had he kept to his original stance he would be feted as every other FBPE-r who went in that direction is. After all: they all 'stand with' Rosie Duffield, arch-Rejoiner and self-declared tribune of the liberal elite (when not whining about how Labour is Stoke Newington not Stoke and it's too middle-class and they don't care for the concerns of working people).

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Sir Tony Lloyd's family have announced that he has died.

[CumbrianLefty]

And the reason she isn't is her trans obsession, which only really took off a few years ago.

And she was part of it in the first place. I do not do this as a factional thing but it does seem clear that Open Labour is uniquely attractive to small-l liberals whose politics mainly consist of reacting to things and who have little interest in the Labour Party in and of itself.

I have some time for the organisation as one of the relatively few in the party who seriously tried to find some common ground during the Corbyn era.

As to your substantive point here - one thing that anyone active in the Labour party for any length of time discovers, is that it has an awful lot of "small-l" liberals in it. And this applies very much to the left as well as the right, there is indeed an argument that both Jez and his mentor Viscount Stansgate were/are as much very radical liberals as socialists at the end of the day.