Hungary prepares to end legal recognition of trans people

[jaymichaud]

Kick 'em out of the EU and sanction the f**k outta them til they get their heads back on straight and become an ACTUAL democracy.

Easier said than done. Fidesz act like a mafia to the point it’s sinister. Remember when it took like 7 days for their ‘election results’ to come in? The Hungarian people are sitting ducks.

[CumbrianLefty]

Khrushchev did nothing wrong in '56

Drawing on the mythology of that time is a key part of Orban's appeal, of course.

[PSOL]

It’s done

[T'Chenka]

It’s done

Disgusting.

I wanted to do a longer reply to this, but the more I think about it, there isn't really much else to say. "Disgusting" sums it up nicely.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

It's disgusting indeed. Protect the #LGBTQ community!

They're still part of EPP by the way. EPP should kick them out. And Hungary has no place in the EU.

[CumbrianLefty]

It's disgusting indeed. Protect the #LGBTQ community!

They're still part of EPP by the way. EPP should kick them out. And Hungary has no place in the EU.

There's surely no good reason why that can't happen, at least?

[It’s so Joever]

Kicking Hungary out of the EU would be a foolish decision and would most certainly do nothing to improve the situation. There has got to be a better way of pressuring Orban.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Kicking Hungary out of the EU would be a foolish decision and would most certainly do nothing to improve the situation. There has got to be a better way of pressuring Orban.

Even assuming that there was no way to pressure Orban, kicking Hungary out of the EU would be stupid regardless. Better to do nothing and conserve your strength than to pick a stand on a place and in circumstances guaranteed to backfire.
Let us not fetishize the act of taking action and instead look at things analytically - maximizing our ability to get our goals through and if necessary preserve a status quo that is favorable.

[PSOL]

Hungary should not only be kicked, but threatened sanctions until democratic norms and a free, diversified locally-owned press is a reality in the nation.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Hungary should not only be kicked, but threatened sanctions until democratic norms and a free, diversified locally-owned press is a reality in the nation.

Fidesz says thank you for making their hold on power be even more entrenched than before.

[CumbrianLefty]

So what is your suggestion for making it less entrenched?

[Cassius]

Hungary should not only be kicked, but threatened sanctions until democratic norms and a free, diversified locally-owned press is a reality in the nation.

So, your great strategy is to punish the Hungarian people until they vote for the correct parties? That will definitely work.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

So what is your suggestion for making it less entrenched?

I dunno, but it is better to do nothing and lose nothing than do something and have a clear net loss both in the short-term and the long-term.
Insisting on action even when it's not a good idea is the kind of thinking that unsuccessful political movements are likelier to make.

[Intell]

The Hungarian people should be punished if they vote for fascist parties yes, South Africa was punished until it ended apartheid.


*I only support it if it's effective though, but  without knowing the effictiveness I agree wth the last sentence.

[Cassius]

The Hungarian people should be punished if they vote for fascist parties yes, South Africa was punished until it ended apartheid.


*I only support it if it's effective though, but  without knowing the effictiveness I agree wth the last sentence.

You’re not much of a socialist are you?

[Intell]

The Hungarian people should be punished if they vote for fascist parties yes, South Africa was punished until it ended apartheid.


*I only support it if it's effective though, but  without knowing the effictiveness I agree wth the last sentence.

You’re not much of a socialist are you?

Life and conservatives have made me less so. But on the central issue of socialism (worker's control) I still am. That is why I will have an S avatar.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Hungary should not only be kicked, but threatened sanctions until democratic norms and a free, diversified locally-owned press is a reality in the nation.

Fidesz says thank you for making their hold on power be even more entrenched than before.

So? Would it be better to ignore it and pray they won't go even further, or hope they'll just see the error of their ways and change?

How about going even further, like tossing aside these stupid democratic and human right values? Hey, why not admit Belarus to the EU right now, if authoritarianism is no longer a problem?

[Cassius]

Hungary should not only be kicked, but threatened sanctions until democratic norms and a free, diversified locally-owned press is a reality in the nation.

Fidesz says thank you for making their hold on power be even more entrenched than before.

So? Would it be better to ignore it and pray they won't go even further, or hope they'll just see the error of their ways and change?

How about going even further, like tossing aside these stupid democratic and human right values? Hey, why not admit Belarus to the EU right now, if authoritarianism is no longer a problem?

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the EU stands for democracy and human rights, as opposed to being a mechanism for shifting money around the continent and a job creation scheme for has-been and never-will-be national politicians. I would’ve thought the EU’s attitudes towards debtor states and refugees would’ve been enough to give lie to all that ‘values’ guff.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Hungary should not only be kicked, but threatened sanctions until democratic norms and a free, diversified locally-owned press is a reality in the nation.

Fidesz says thank you for making their hold on power be even more entrenched than before.

So? Would it be better to ignore it and pray they won't go even further, or hope they'll just see the error of their ways and change?

How about going even further, like tossing aside these stupid democratic and human right values? Hey, why not admit Belarus to the EU right now, if authoritarianism is no longer a problem?

If acting only further hurts the cause of liberalism and democracy still further is it really worth it? You don't take action for the sake of doing action you do action for the sake of getting more of your goals done. I remain unconvinced that severely punishing Orban would help in either the short-term or, to an even greater extent, the long-term.
Remember what happened when Austria got sanctioned from the EU for seven months in 1999? What good did that ever do?
Was it worth causing a crash of and permanently reducing the prevalence of pro-EU attitudes in Austria so that you can say a symbolic stand was made against having the far-right in government? I guess - if you don't care about effectively fighting for your goals.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Hungary should not only be kicked, but threatened sanctions until democratic norms and a free, diversified locally-owned press is a reality in the nation.

Fidesz says thank you for making their hold on power be even more entrenched than before.

So? Would it be better to ignore it and pray they won't go even further, or hope they'll just see the error of their ways and change?

How about going even further, like tossing aside these stupid democratic and human right values? Hey, why not admit Belarus to the EU right now, if authoritarianism is no longer a problem?

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the EU stands for democracy and human rights, as opposed to being a mechanism for shifting money around the continent and a job creation scheme for has-been and never-will-be national politicians. I would’ve thought the EU’s attitudes towards debtor states and refugees would’ve been enough to give lie to all that ‘values’ guff.

I'm well aware of the EU flaws, but I'm also aware that for all said flaws the European integration did achieve meaningful results in strenghtening certain values on the post-War continent.

[Cassius]

Hungary should not only be kicked, but threatened sanctions until democratic norms and a free, diversified locally-owned press is a reality in the nation.

Fidesz says thank you for making their hold on power be even more entrenched than before.

So? Would it be better to ignore it and pray they won't go even further, or hope they'll just see the error of their ways and change?

How about going even further, like tossing aside these stupid democratic and human right values? Hey, why not admit Belarus to the EU right now, if authoritarianism is no longer a problem?

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the EU stands for democracy and human rights, as opposed to being a mechanism for shifting money around the continent and a job creation scheme for has-been and never-will-be national politicians. I would’ve thought the EU’s attitudes towards debtor states and refugees would’ve been enough to give lie to all that ‘values’ guff.

I'm well aware of the EU flaws, but I'm also aware that for all said flaws the European integration did achieve meaningful results in strenghtening certain values on the post-War continent.

Possibly, but I’d say the presence of an enormous number of Soviet and American troops in a divided and dismembered Germany probably played a bigger role. The EU and its laudators always like to piggyback on the achievements and actions of other actors in claiming it ‘brought peace to Europe’, but really that’s just bad history. There certainly are large changes that can be attributed directly to the EU (such as the role EU transfers have played in helping historically poor countries in the bloc to catch up, like Ireland), but the ‘values’ stuff really is the biggest bunch of old bollocks in the postwar era.

[Sozialliberal]

That's bad news, but it doesn't surprise me. Hungary has been drifting in a worrisome direction in recent years (like Poland). I don't think this new law will stand up in court though.

Possibly, but I’d say the presence of an enormous number of Soviet and American troops in a divided and dismembered Germany probably played a bigger role. The EU and its laudators always like to piggyback on the achievements and actions of other actors in claiming it ‘brought peace to Europe’, but really that’s just bad history. There certainly are large changes that can be attributed directly to the EU (such as the role EU transfers have played in helping historically poor countries in the bloc to catch up, like Ireland), but the ‘values’ stuff really is the biggest bunch of old bollocks in the postwar era.

Winston Churchill did not think so. In 1946, he delivered a famous speech at the University of Zurich. This is an excerpt from it:

"What is this sovereign remedy? It is to recreate the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living."

Full speech