COVID-19 Megathread 5: The Trumps catch COVID-19

[GoTfan]

Apparently 9k+ is the new normal for Florida now.

https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1276896809080836103

Worldometers is reporting 26 deaths today in FL.  But either way, it’s a 35-40% week-over-week decline in deaths.  Yesterday also saw a small week-over-week decline in deaths.

Cases have been increasing in Florida for at least 4 weeks.  The last week of May saw 700 cases per day on average, while the first week in June saw 1200 cases per day.  But average deaths have remained stable in the 30s for the entire month.  How have we not seen any increase in deaths yet?  Even if there was a 3-4 week lag, we should be seeing some evidence by now.

The theory of the virus having mutated to become less deadly is looking more plausible than it was a couple weeks ago.  I believe an Italian doctor has been speculating about that for a while now.

That's skewed by lagging reporting.

[Florida Man for Crime]

The theory of the virus having mutated to become less deadly is looking more plausible than it was a couple weeks ago.  I believe an Italian doctor has been speculating about that for a while now.

It is in principle entirely possible "the virus" could have mutated to be less deadly (viruses mutate all the time, though most mutations don't have significant effects), but think carefully for a moment about what it means if "the virus" mutates.

First of all, there is actually no such thing as "the virus." There are virii (plural).

If virus in one person mutates in a certain way, it doesn't suddenly/magically also get the same mutation.

A mutation only spreads through the population if it does so over an extended period of time, by transmitting and infecting new hosts, and them then infecting others.

And at least as importantly, what happens to all the other non-mutated virii in the meantime? They should continue to spread amongst the population . The non-mutated virii don't simply all disappear just because there is some other new mutated virii.

The only way that the non-mutated virii disappear (and therefore the new mutated version takes its place and becomes prevalent/universal) is if the old version can no longer spread. Why would the non-mutated virus suddenly not be able to spread? Up until now at least it has had no difficulty spreading. Unless there is some reason the old virus can no longer spread, then there isn't any particular selection pressure or mechanism to cause it to die out and allow a mutated version to take its place and become prevalent.

One way the normal non-mutated version might stop spreading is if herd immunity developed, and if the mutated version can nonetheless infect people who were immune to the previous version. I am no virologist, but AFAIK this is normally how new mutations of viruses that cause cold/flu spread and become prevalent - because new variants develop different tricks to get around immunity and spread more easily while old variants no longer can spread due to immunity/prevalent vaccines, etc.

But this is not the case as far as we know - serology shows that there is no herd immunity outside possibly of a few particularly hard hit regions such as some of the Italian towns in Lombardy.

So if you think that there is some sort of new mutation, then you need to explain what exactly is driving the selection pressure to allow it to become prevalent and replace the non-mutated version.

And any such explanation is totally lacking...

Of course, it is theoretically possible that some study could come out tomorrow showing that a mutated less-deadly strain has begun to circulate (maybe hypothetically there is a more mild strain that comprises 5% or 10% or 20% or even 50% of current infections) and that could prove you right. But if so, you wouldn't be right because of any particular insight or because this was particularly likely/plausible to think, but rather just from completely random dumb luck.

So this idea that the virus has mutated to become deadly is hypothetically theoretically possible, but if you think about it carefully it doesn't seem particularly plausible or logical to think that it is very likely at all.

[It’s so Joever]

The theory of the virus having mutated to become less deadly is looking more plausible than it was a couple weeks ago.  I believe an Italian doctor has been speculating about that for a while now.

It is in principle entirely possible "the virus" could have mutated to be less deadly (viruses mutate all the time, though most mutations don't have significant effects), but think carefully for a moment about what it means if "the virus" mutates.

First of all, there is actually no such thing as "the virus." There are virii (plural).

If virus in one person mutates in a certain way, it doesn't suddenly/magically also get the same mutation.

A mutation only spreads through the population if it does so over an extended period of time, by transmitting and infecting new hosts, and them then infecting others.

And at least as importantly, what happens to all the other non-mutated virii in the meantime? They should continue to spread amongst the population . The non-mutated virii don't simply all disappear just because there is some other new mutated virii.

The only way that the non-mutated virii disappear (and therefore the new mutated version takes its place and becomes prevalent/universal) is if the old version can no longer spread. Why would the non-mutated virus suddenly not be able to spread? Up until now at least it has had no difficulty spreading. Unless there is some reason the old virus can no longer spread, then there isn't any particular selection pressure or mechanism to cause it to die out and allow a mutated version to take its place and become prevalent.

One way the normal non-mutated version might stop spreading is if herd immunity developed, and if the mutated version can nonetheless infect people who were immune to the previous version. I am no virologist, but AFAIK this is normally how new mutations of viruses that cause cold/flu spread and become prevalent - because new variants develop different tricks to get around immunity and spread more easily while old variants no longer can spread due to immunity/prevalent vaccines, etc.

But this is not the case as far as we know - serology shows that there is no herd immunity outside possibly of a few particularly hard hit regions such as some of the Italian towns in Lombardy.

So if you think that there is some sort of new mutation, then you need to explain what exactly is driving the selection pressure to allow it to become prevalent and replace the non-mutated version.

And any such explanation is totally lacking...

Of course, it is theoretically possible that some study could come out tomorrow showing that a mutated less-deadly strain has begun to circulate (maybe hypothetically there is a more mild strain that comprises 5% or 10% or 20% or even 50% of current infections) and that could prove you right. But if so, you wouldn't be right because of any particular insight or because this was particularly likely/plausible to think, but rather just from completely random dumb luck.

So this idea that the virus has mutated to become deadly is hypothetically theoretically possible, but if you think about it carefully it doesn't seem particularly plausible or logical to think that it is very likely at all.

As unproven as these theories about the virus weakening are, we shouldn’t discredit it completely.
I don’t think I posted this earlier, but there was one detected mutation which did appear to potentially weaken the virulence while not harming the infectivity too much.
Funny enough, this was found in...Arizona.

https://asunow.asu.edu/20200505-asu-scientific-team-finds-new-unique-mutation-coronavirus-study

I didn’t think much of it then, seeing it as one out of many mutations, but the fact Arizona and several Southern States are having these outbreaks with fewer deaths so far (because I do think this will change) does bring up an interesting question.
It’s also important to note that SARS (which is close to Covid) saw similar mutations although more quickly.
Personally I don’t think this is the main reason, I think lagging deaths (which everyone here underestimates) and the sheer difference in demographics being infected have a much large role.
That being said, what ExtremeRepublican does is take the most optimistic news and present it as factual without strong corroboration out of ideological zeal rather than scientific thought.

[Landslide Lyndon]

https://twitter.com/StevenTDennis/status/1276962772610428941

[brucejoel99]

https://twitter.com/StevenTDennis/status/1276962772610428941

DeSantis: "Looks like we're ready to be fully open!"

[Florida Man for Crime]

As unproven as these theories about the virus weakening are, we shouldn’t discredit it completely.

Indeed, it is possible. If that has hypothetically occurred though, it doesn't mean that the old strain has gone away. What it would mean, more likely, if it were the case, would be that some people would get the old more deadly strain, and other people would get the new less deadly strain. It wouldn't be that everyone would now get the less deadly strain.

That being said, what ExtremeRepublican does is take the most optimistic news and present it as factual without strong corroboration out of ideological zeal rather than scientific thought.

^^

[Meclazine for Israel]

The theory of the virus having mutated to become less deadly is looking more plausible than it was a couple weeks ago.  I believe an Italian doctor has been speculating about that for a while now.

It is in principle entirely possible "the virus" could have mutated to be less deadly (viruses mutate all the time, though most mutations don't have significant effects), but think carefully for a moment about what it means if "the virus" mutates.

First of all, there is actually no such thing as "the virus." There are virii (plural).

If virus in one person mutates in a certain way, it doesn't suddenly/magically also get the same mutation.

A mutation only spreads through the population if it does so over an extended period of time, by transmitting and infecting new hosts, and them then infecting others.

And at least as importantly, what happens to all the other non-mutated virii in the meantime? They should continue to spread amongst the population . The non-mutated virii don't simply all disappear just because there is some other new mutated virii.

The only way that the non-mutated virii disappear (and therefore the new mutated version takes its place and becomes prevalent/universal) is if the old version can no longer spread. Why would the non-mutated virus suddenly not be able to spread? Up until now at least it has had no difficulty spreading. Unless there is some reason the old virus can no longer spread, then there isn't any particular selection pressure or mechanism to cause it to die out and allow a mutated version to take its place and become prevalent.

One way the normal non-mutated version might stop spreading is if herd immunity developed, and if the mutated version can nonetheless infect people who were immune to the previous version. I am no virologist, but AFAIK this is normally how new mutations of viruses that cause cold/flu spread and become prevalent - because new variants develop different tricks to get around immunity and spread more easily while old variants no longer can spread due to immunity/prevalent vaccines, etc.

But this is not the case as far as we know - serology shows that there is no herd immunity outside possibly of a few particularly hard hit regions such as some of the Italian towns in Lombardy.

So if you think that there is some sort of new mutation, then you need to explain what exactly is driving the selection pressure to allow it to become prevalent and replace the non-mutated version.

And any such explanation is totally lacking...

Of course, it is theoretically possible that some study could come out tomorrow showing that a mutated less-deadly strain has begun to circulate (maybe hypothetically there is a more mild strain that comprises 5% or 10% or 20% or even 50% of current infections) and that could prove you right. But if so, you wouldn't be right because of any particular insight or because this was particularly likely/plausible to think, but rather just from completely random dumb luck.

So this idea that the virus has mutated to become deadly is hypothetically theoretically possible, but if you think about it carefully it doesn't seem particularly plausible or logical to think that it is very likely at all.

If you study Molecular Biology or Medicine at University level for any length of time, you will get a better appreciation for what single cell mutation is all about.

You are more or less saying "If you think this, you need to explain how that occurs. And any such explanation is totally lacking..."

[emailking]

I'd still like to know why the virus would evolve to be less deadly. If it's killing 1% or less I don't see what the selection pressure would be to become less deadly. Unless it really is just random (which is possible of course). Younger people getting the virus in increased numbers seem to me like a more plausible way to explain the lower death rates.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

I think there’s a bunch of explanations for why the death rate continues to decrease that don’t require something as deus ex machina as a mutation of the virus. 

The biggest one is probably simple increased testing, which reduced the death rate in two ways.  First, it identifies a much higher proportion of mild and asymptomatic cases, thus increasing the denominator of the death rate without increasing the numerator.  The second is that people discover they are infected much earlier, allowing them to seek medical attention sooner.

The second biggest is improved treatment.  Over the last few months, we have developed half a dozen new avenues for treating the virus.  Each of the independently may reduce deaths 10-20%, but across all treatment, especially when used in conjunction with each other, it is very plausible to me that more than half of patients who would have died in April are now recovering.

Third, there does seem to be evidence that the age of the average infected person has dropped, even independent of the increase in testing.  Perhaps it spread more among older professionals at first who brought it through airplanes and conferences before spreading now more to college students?  I think we’ve all also become more aware of the disproportionate impact on older people, and this may cause older people to socially distance more relative to younger people, and more relative to a few months ago.

[CellarDoor]

I read a post/article on Iran's COVID-19 response that seems relevant.  Iran experienced a second wave similar to what we are experiencing now (rising cases, lower average age of of cases, but not yet seeing a corresponding rise in deaths).  Deaths didn't spike initially but did 3-4 weeks later after the younger people passed the virus onto other subgroups (elderly, etc.) more likely to die from the virus.

If this is what is happening to us I'd expect to see the death rate climb in the coming weeks.  Hopefully that's not the case but we'll see.

[Dr. Arch]

I read a post/article on Iran's COVID-19 response that seems relevant.  Iran experienced a second wave similar to what we are experiencing now (rising cases, lower average age of of cases, but not yet seeing a corresponding rise in deaths).  Deaths didn't spike initially but did 3-4 weeks later after the younger people passed the virus onto other subgroups (elderly, etc.) more likely to die from the virus.

This is not a second wave. This is a revival of the first wave, instigated by bad policy and worse community practices.

[CellarDoor]

I read a post/article on Iran's COVID-19 response that seems relevant.  Iran experienced a second wave similar to what we are experiencing now (rising cases, lower average age of of cases, but not yet seeing a corresponding rise in deaths).  Deaths didn't spike initially but did 3-4 weeks later after the younger people passed the virus onto other subgroups (elderly, etc.) more likely to die from the virus.

This is not a second wave. This is a revival of the first wave, instigated by bad policy and worse community practices.

I wasn't claiming that the US is experiencing a second wave.  I agree we are still in the first wave.  I was referencing Iran's second wave.

[Dr. Arch]

I read a post/article on Iran's COVID-19 response that seems relevant.  Iran experienced a second wave similar to what we are experiencing now (rising cases, lower average age of of cases, but not yet seeing a corresponding rise in deaths).  Deaths didn't spike initially but did 3-4 weeks later after the younger people passed the virus onto other subgroups (elderly, etc.) more likely to die from the virus.

This is not a second wave. This is a revival of the first wave, instigated by bad policy and worse community practices.

I wasn't claiming that the US is experiencing a second wave.  I agree we are still in the first wave.  I was referencing Iran's second wave.

"Iran experienced a second wave similar to what we are experiencing now." The "what" is ambiguous, and lends itself to be interpreted as a pronominal equivalent of "second wave."

Thanks for the clarification.

[CellarDoor]

I read a post/article on Iran's COVID-19 response that seems relevant.  Iran experienced a second wave similar to what we are experiencing now (rising cases, lower average age of of cases, but not yet seeing a corresponding rise in deaths).  Deaths didn't spike initially but did 3-4 weeks later after the younger people passed the virus onto other subgroups (elderly, etc.) more likely to die from the virus.

This is not a second wave. This is a revival of the first wave, instigated by bad policy and worse community practices.

I wasn't claiming that the US is experiencing a second wave.  I agree we are still in the first wave.  I was referencing Iran's second wave.

"Iran experienced a second wave similar to what we are experiencing now." The "what" is ambiguous, and lends itself to be interpreted as a pronominal equivalent of "second wave."

Thanks for the clarification.

I agree, my post could have been worded more clearly.  I simply meant that what they were experiencing in their second wave was similar to what we are experiencing now.

[Calthrina950]

But it just drives me up the wall when I hear healthy people whining about how "masks are hot and uncomfortable" and that they're bored/feeling oppressed.

The problem here is that way too many Americans really are complete snowflakes.

I think this is the reason why the USA in particular is so bad at controlling the virus, because we have by far the highest per capita snowflake population and the biggest sense of personal entitlement.

It is a good thing that these people didn't have to live in the 1300s amidst the black death.

And while I'm in rant mode: wearing a mask over your mouth but not your nose defeats the whole damn purpose.  

I get it.  They're not the most comfy thing to wear.  

Still, it just BAFFLES me that people can be SO FREAKING STUPID.  Y'all know that I don't get mad or upset all that often and I'll step down off my soapbox.  But there were a dozen profanity-filled things I wanted to say to this aforementioned individual complaining about masks and that he hadn't "had a good burger in months" thanks to the "hysteria".  

One thing I've noticed is that many (though certainly not all) of those who don't wear a mask tend to be the most arrogant, rude, and crude people that you could deal with. They clearly don't care about anyone else other than themselves, and will persist in their obstinate behavior. What frustrates me even more is that even though employees at my job have been required to wear masks for two months, many of them still don't even bother to wear them when they are not on the clock. That is, they come in to work maskless, they go on break or lunch (through the store) maskless, and they leave work maskless. That defeats the purpose of it.

[Penn_Quaker_Girl]

But it just drives me up the wall when I hear healthy people whining about how "masks are hot and uncomfortable" and that they're bored/feeling oppressed.

The problem here is that way too many Americans really are complete snowflakes.

I think this is the reason why the USA in particular is so bad at controlling the virus, because we have by far the highest per capita snowflake population and the biggest sense of personal entitlement.

It is a good thing that these people didn't have to live in the 1300s amidst the black death.

And while I'm in rant mode: wearing a mask over your mouth but not your nose defeats the whole damn purpose.  

I get it.  They're not the most comfy thing to wear.  

Still, it just BAFFLES me that people can be SO FREAKING STUPID.  Y'all know that I don't get mad or upset all that often and I'll step down off my soapbox.  But there were a dozen profanity-filled things I wanted to say to this aforementioned individual complaining about masks and that he hadn't "had a good burger in months" thanks to the "hysteria".  

One thing I've noticed is that many (though certainly not all) of those who don't wear a mask tend to be the most arrogant, rude, and crude people that you could deal with. They clearly don't care about anyone else other than themselves, and will persist in their obstinate behavior. What frustrates me even more is that even though employees at my job have been required to wear masks for two months, many of them still don't even bother to wear them when they are not on the clock. That is, they come in to work maskless, they go on break or lunch (through the store) maskless, and they leave work maskless. That defeats the purpose of it.

They have a chip on their shoulder because they're "a grown-ass man/woman" and "someone is trying to tell me what to do." 

"It's a free country!  I have rights!!!"

[T'Chenka]

there were a dozen profanity-filled things I wanted to say to this aforementioned individual complaining about masks and that he hadn't "had a good burger in months" thanks to the "hysteria". 

Maybe that moron should try pick-up or delivery or get a used cheap barbeque off of Kajiji and grill a patty he bought at the grocery store. Just maybe.

[emailking]

I read a post/article on Iran's COVID-19 response that seems relevant.  Iran experienced a second wave similar to what we are experiencing now (rising cases, lower average age of of cases, but not yet seeing a corresponding rise in deaths).  Deaths didn't spike initially but did 3-4 weeks later after the younger people passed the virus onto other subgroups (elderly, etc.) more likely to die from the virus.

This is not a second wave. This is a revival of the first wave, instigated by bad policy and worse community practices.

I wasn't claiming that the US is experiencing a second wave.  I agree we are still in the first wave.  I was referencing Iran's second wave.

"Iran experienced a second wave similar to what we are experiencing now." The "what" is ambiguous, and lends itself to be interpreted as a pronominal equivalent of "second wave."

Thanks for the clarification.

I think it's all semantics anyway. Cases are never going to go to 0, so it's subjective when the first wave has ended.

[Calthrina950]

But it just drives me up the wall when I hear healthy people whining about how "masks are hot and uncomfortable" and that they're bored/feeling oppressed.

The problem here is that way too many Americans really are complete snowflakes.

I think this is the reason why the USA in particular is so bad at controlling the virus, because we have by far the highest per capita snowflake population and the biggest sense of personal entitlement.

It is a good thing that these people didn't have to live in the 1300s amidst the black death.

And while I'm in rant mode: wearing a mask over your mouth but not your nose defeats the whole damn purpose.  

I get it.  They're not the most comfy thing to wear.  

Still, it just BAFFLES me that people can be SO FREAKING STUPID.  Y'all know that I don't get mad or upset all that often and I'll step down off my soapbox.  But there were a dozen profanity-filled things I wanted to say to this aforementioned individual complaining about masks and that he hadn't "had a good burger in months" thanks to the "hysteria".  

One thing I've noticed is that many (though certainly not all) of those who don't wear a mask tend to be the most arrogant, rude, and crude people that you could deal with. They clearly don't care about anyone else other than themselves, and will persist in their obstinate behavior. What frustrates me even more is that even though employees at my job have been required to wear masks for two months, many of them still don't even bother to wear them when they are not on the clock. That is, they come in to work maskless, they go on break or lunch (through the store) maskless, and they leave work maskless. That defeats the purpose of it.

They have a chip on their shoulder because they're "a grown-ass man/woman" and "someone is trying to tell me what to do." 

"It's a free country!  I have rights!!!"

I've made clear my opposition to mask mandates imposed by government, but have also emphasized my support for mask mandates imposed by businesses. As I've explained before, most of the employees at my job were not wearing masks before they were mandated to do so by the Governor's order back in April. One of my co-workers has constantly complained about it, says that he is "fine", and that he doesn't need to wear a mask. He goes maskless whenever he is not on the clock, and has it down much of the time even when he is on the clock. I saw another employee who had a scarf around his neck, but was maskless and interacting with customers. Many of these people are mental Neanderthals.

[Dr. Arch]

I read a post/article on Iran's COVID-19 response that seems relevant.  Iran experienced a second wave similar to what we are experiencing now (rising cases, lower average age of of cases, but not yet seeing a corresponding rise in deaths).  Deaths didn't spike initially but did 3-4 weeks later after the younger people passed the virus onto other subgroups (elderly, etc.) more likely to die from the virus.

This is not a second wave. This is a revival of the first wave, instigated by bad policy and worse community practices.

I wasn't claiming that the US is experiencing a second wave.  I agree we are still in the first wave.  I was referencing Iran's second wave.

"Iran experienced a second wave similar to what we are experiencing now." The "what" is ambiguous, and lends itself to be interpreted as a pronominal equivalent of "second wave."

Thanks for the clarification.

I think it's all semantics anyway. Cases are never going to go to 0, so it's subjective when the first wave has ended.

For a wave to end, the numbers have to plateau at a low non-zero number for a while, and then start a new curve. The U.S. never managed to do that to begin with.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

I read a post/article on Iran's COVID-19 response that seems relevant.  Iran experienced a second wave similar to what we are experiencing now (rising cases, lower average age of of cases, but not yet seeing a corresponding rise in deaths).  Deaths didn't spike initially but did 3-4 weeks later after the younger people passed the virus onto other subgroups (elderly, etc.) more likely to die from the virus.

This is not a second wave. This is a revival of the first wave, instigated by bad policy and worse community practices.

I wasn't claiming that the US is experiencing a second wave.  I agree we are still in the first wave.  I was referencing Iran's second wave.

"Iran experienced a second wave similar to what we are experiencing now." The "what" is ambiguous, and lends itself to be interpreted as a pronominal equivalent of "second wave."

Thanks for the clarification.

I think it's all semantics anyway. Cases are never going to go to 0, so it's subjective when the first wave has ended.

For a wave to end, the numbers have to plateau at a low non-zero number for a while, and then start a new curve. The U.S. never managed to do that to begin with.

It is somewhat semantic, but you do observe clear bimidal curves in a handful of places, Iran being one of them.  The only state I’ve seen where you could argue there’s a legitimate second wave right now is Louisiana.

[anthonyjg]

But it just drives me up the wall when I hear healthy people whining about how "masks are hot and uncomfortable" and that they're bored/feeling oppressed.

The problem here is that way too many Americans really are complete snowflakes.

I think this is the reason why the USA in particular is so bad at controlling the virus, because we have by far the highest per capita snowflake population and the biggest sense of personal entitlement.

It is a good thing that these people didn't have to live in the 1300s amidst the black death.

And while I'm in rant mode: wearing a mask over your mouth but not your nose defeats the whole damn purpose.  

I get it.  They're not the most comfy thing to wear.  

Still, it just BAFFLES me that people can be SO FREAKING STUPID.  Y'all know that I don't get mad or upset all that often and I'll step down off my soapbox.  But there were a dozen profanity-filled things I wanted to say to this aforementioned individual complaining about masks and that he hadn't "had a good burger in months" thanks to the "hysteria".  

One thing I've noticed is that many (though certainly not all) of those who don't wear a mask tend to be the most arrogant, rude, and crude people that you could deal with. They clearly don't care about anyone else other than themselves, and will persist in their obstinate behavior. What frustrates me even more is that even though employees at my job have been required to wear masks for two months, many of them still don't even bother to wear them when they are not on the clock. That is, they come in to work maskless, they go on break or lunch (through the store) maskless, and they leave work maskless. That defeats the purpose of it.

They have a chip on their shoulder because they're "a grown-ass man/woman" and "someone is trying to tell me what to do." 

"It's a free country!  I have rights!!!"

I've made clear my opposition to mask mandates imposed by government, but have also emphasized my support for mask mandates imposed by businesses. As I've explained before, most of the employees at my job were not wearing masks before they were mandated to do so by the Governor's order back in April. One of my co-workers has constantly complained about it, says that he is "fine", and that he doesn't need to wear a mask. He goes maskless whenever he is not on the clock, and has it down much of the time even when he is on the clock. I saw another employee who had a scarf around his neck, but was maskless and interacting with customers. Many of these people are mental Neanderthals.

The whole macho complex surrounding these people is baffling. Attention seeking at its absolute worst.

[T'Chenka]

They have a chip on their shoulder because they're "a grown-ass man/woman" and "someone is trying to tell me what to do." 

"It's a free country!  I have rights!!!"

I've made clear my opposition to mask mandates imposed by government, but have also emphasized my support for mask mandates imposed by businesses. As I've explained before, most of the employees at my job were not wearing masks before they were mandated to do so by the Governor's order back in April. One of my co-workers has constantly complained about it, says that he is "fine", and that he doesn't need to wear a mask. He goes maskless whenever he is not on the clock, and has it down much of the time even when he is on the clock. I saw another employee who had a scarf around his neck, but was maskless and interacting with customers. Many of these people are mental Neanderthals.

The whole macho complex surrounding these people is baffling. Attention seeking at its absolute worst.

I don't see it that way at all. I think it's that these people are literally stupid enough to think that they know better than the government and medical professionals, and they're also too simple-minded to question and challenge their own ideas and consider modifying them.

[Progressive Pessimist]

They have a chip on their shoulder because they're "a grown-ass man/woman" and "someone is trying to tell me what to do." 

"It's a free country!  I have rights!!!"

I've made clear my opposition to mask mandates imposed by government, but have also emphasized my support for mask mandates imposed by businesses. As I've explained before, most of the employees at my job were not wearing masks before they were mandated to do so by the Governor's order back in April. One of my co-workers has constantly complained about it, says that he is "fine", and that he doesn't need to wear a mask. He goes maskless whenever he is not on the clock, and has it down much of the time even when he is on the clock. I saw another employee who had a scarf around his neck, but was maskless and interacting with customers. Many of these people are mental Neanderthals.

The whole macho complex surrounding these people is baffling. Attention seeking at its absolute worst.

I don't see it that way at all. I think it's that these people are literally stupid enough to think that they know better than the government and medical professionals, and they're also too simple-minded to question and challenge their own ideas and consider modifying them.

There is definitely some overlap there though.

[anthonyjg]

They have a chip on their shoulder because they're "a grown-ass man/woman" and "someone is trying to tell me what to do." 

"It's a free country!  I have rights!!!"

I've made clear my opposition to mask mandates imposed by government, but have also emphasized my support for mask mandates imposed by businesses. As I've explained before, most of the employees at my job were not wearing masks before they were mandated to do so by the Governor's order back in April. One of my co-workers has constantly complained about it, says that he is "fine", and that he doesn't need to wear a mask. He goes maskless whenever he is not on the clock, and has it down much of the time even when he is on the clock. I saw another employee who had a scarf around his neck, but was maskless and interacting with customers. Many of these people are mental Neanderthals.

The whole macho complex surrounding these people is baffling. Attention seeking at its absolute worst.

I don't see it that way at all. I think it's that these people are literally stupid enough to think that they know better than the government and medical professionals, and they're also too simple-minded to question and challenge their own ideas and consider modifying them.

Oh yeah, I completely agree, I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.