COVID-19 Megathread 5: The Trumps catch COVID-19

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

I'm absolutely livid about the meat processing plants bring forced back open. What protections will there be for the workers? Smithfield in Sioux Falls was already a major hotspot. Most people aren't willing to work meat processing plants, which is why many employee illegal immigrants as well. How are these places going to be staffed? There was no forethought or any real consideration put into this decision. Ugh.

Meat packing plants are actually the valid argument to that people would work those dirty jobs for a higher wage because that is what people did from the 1950s to the 1980s. Increased supply of labor both illegal and legal crashed the average wages of meatpacking jobs, Im not arguing against immigration for this reason as this also had the effect of keeping meat cheap for millions of Americans. This is a freeer market which is a good thing but  its absurd to deny higher wages wouldn't encourage other Americans to work these jobs.

I'm not sure this (bolded claim) is true in 2020 the same way it was true in 1960. The work in a meat packing plant hasn't gotten that much less physical demanding (whereas most other manual labor has, meaning packing jobs are relatively less attractive) and there are several cases where after ICE raids plant operators tried to fill in their open positions with domestic labor with poor retention. E.g., in Postville Iowa they trucked in unemployed people from Texas all the way to Ohio after a 2008 raid and most of them quit within four months; this was at the beginning of the Recession when there weren't that many other places for these people to find work so it's not likely they quit because they found better pay elsewhere.

[lfromnj]

I'm absolutely livid about the meat processing plants bring forced back open. What protections will there be for the workers? Smithfield in Sioux Falls was already a major hotspot. Most people aren't willing to work meat processing plants, which is why many employee illegal immigrants as well. How are these places going to be staffed? There was no forethought or any real consideration put into this decision. Ugh.

Meat packing plants are actually the valid argument to that people would work those dirty jobs for a higher wage because that is what people did from the 1950s to the 1980s. Increased supply of labor both illegal and legal crashed the average wages of meatpacking jobs, Im not arguing against immigration for this reason as this also had the effect of keeping meat cheap for millions of Americans. This is a freeer market which is a good thing but  its absurd to deny higher wages wouldn't encourage other Americans to work these jobs.

I'm not sure this (bolded claim) is true in 2020 the same way it was true in 1960. The work in a meat packing plant hasn't gotten that much less physical demanding (whereas most other manual labor has, meaning packing jobs are relatively less attractive) and there are several cases where after ICE raids plant operators tried to fill in their open positions with domestic labor with poor retention. E.g., in Postville Iowa they trucked in unemployed people from Texas all the way to Ohio after a 2008 raid and most of them quit within four months; this was in the middle of the Recession when there weren't that many other places for these people to find work so it's not likely they quit because they found better pay elsewhere.

I will concede that it will be true in a current scenario that a firm literally can't afford to pay more at an individual plant because that would mean a rise in the sale cost (these plants in general have very low margins IIRC) so therefore if they raise wages and prices every other plant that still hires illegals/immigrants will still keep nearly the same price for their wholesale products . Anyway I find it absurd to demand higher wages for these immigrants such as more system checks and higher minimum wage instead of just at that point discourage immigration and let Americans work it. However keeping cheap labor is good for tens of millions of Americans overall as their meat is now much cheaper. If we go to the point of encouraging higher wages at these plants while still having a labor supply overflow it merely just causes higher meat prices and greater unemployment.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

I'm absolutely livid about the meat processing plants bring forced back open. What protections will there be for the workers? Smithfield in Sioux Falls was already a major hotspot. Most people aren't willing to work meat processing plants, which is why many employee illegal immigrants as well. How are these places going to be staffed? There was no forethought or any real consideration put into this decision. Ugh.

Meat packing plants are actually the valid argument to that people would work those dirty jobs for a higher wage because that is what people did from the 1950s to the 1980s. Increased supply of labor both illegal and legal crashed the average wages of meatpacking jobs, Im not arguing against immigration for this reason as this also had the effect of keeping meat cheap for millions of Americans. This is a freeer market which is a good thing but  its absurd to deny higher wages wouldn't encourage other Americans to work these jobs.

I'm not sure this (bolded claim) is true in 2020 the same way it was true in 1960. The work in a meat packing plant hasn't gotten that much less physical demanding (whereas most other manual labor has, meaning packing jobs are relatively less attractive) and there are several cases where after ICE raids plant operators tried to fill in their open positions with domestic labor with poor retention. E.g., in Postville Iowa they trucked in unemployed people from Texas all the way to Ohio after a 2008 raid and most of them quit within four months; this was in the middle of the Recession when there weren't that many other places for these people to find work so it's not likely they quit because they found better pay elsewhere.

I will concede that it will be true in a current scenario that a firm literally can't afford to pay more at an individual plant because that would mean a rise in the sale cost (these plants in general have very low margins IIRC) so therefore if they raise wages and prices every other plant that still hires illegals/immigrants will still keep nearly the same price for their wholesale products . Anyway I find it absurd to demand higher wages for these immigrants such as more system checks and higher minimum wage instead of just at that point discourage immigration and let Americans work it. However keeping cheap labor is good for tens of millions of Americans overall as their meat is now much cheaper. If we go to the point of encouraging higher wages at these plants while still having a labor supply overflow it merely just causes higher meat prices and greater unemployment.

My point was a little bit larger than applying to a single firm elevating wages and facing disadvantage in a competitive market, but this really isn't my specialty so I'm not going to push the point too far.

We might not be looking at or responding to the same things but most of the outrage I am seeing about this (which I agree with) is at the lack of mandatory workplace protections and the liability waivers associated with the act. Obviously having a functioning food supply chain is essential work and invoking the DPA is warranted here but it's insane and inhumane to expect workers to work under these conditions, not have any requirements being put in place to keep them safe, and having the employers shielded from liability which also reduces the likelihood of meaningful safety improvements (which are obviously needed given the outbreaks we're seeing) implemented. Seems to me like getting some sort of mandatory OSHA safety rules is higher priority than higher wages. This is especially scary in areas without enforcement of distancing which let infected plant employees infect others in the community.

[Tender Branson]

60k officially dead in the US now because of the virus in a few weeks.

And that’s only the numbers from hospitals and nursing homes.

Based on weekly death data from other countries (which are tracking all deaths in a country, also those at home), the real numbers could be 50% higher or twice as high.

[jimrtex]

This is certainly true. For example, as I'm sure you're aware, this has arisen in your home state of Texas. Harris County Judge Lina Hidalgo issued an order last week mandating that all residents there wear masks in public, or face a $1,000 fine for not doing so. Governor Abbott, however, in issuing his executive order today outlining Texas's gradual reopening process, explicitly overruled the fine requirement, stating that local jurisdictions in Texas cannot fine or penalize people who don't want to wear masks. In addition to Harris County, Bexar, Travis, and Dallas Counties, and the city of Laredo had also issued mandatory mask orders. Any penalties from those orders are overridden as well.

[...] I'm not responding to anything Badger wrote

Say what you will about it, but the local Police Union in Harris County, in addition (of course) to the local GOP, protested vigorously when Hidalgo issued her order, as dd many of that county's more conservative-leaning residents. Neighboring Montgomery County, to the north of Houston, which is a very Republican suburban county, explicitly announced around the same time that it would not mandate its residents to wear masks in public. And the vast majority of rural counties in Texas aren't doing so, either.

This all feeds back to a point I've made before: that wearing masks are more likely to be mandated in Democratic-controlled areas than in Republican-controlled ones. Democrats (and rightly so) see masks as a necessary measure to contain the pandemic, while Republicans are concerned about the inconveniences that they pose, as well as more legitimate concerns about personal freedom. One other thing. I saw an article that in your home state, Governor DeWine was originally going to mandate mask-wearing in public, but he walked back on that. Probably due to those same concerns I've noted.

The Police Union was upset after Hidalgo ordered the county jail to release inmates charged with violent crimes, including murder. Now she is in essence ordering the police to enforce her edict. They will likely be required to use racial quotas in enforcement.

Hidalgo is likely upset that Mayor Turner has pushed back on closing businesses such as construction and big box stores dealing in contraband such as cucumber seeds.

Democrats likely see imposition of masks as controlling the populace, a mark of submission. Republicans are more concerned about liberty and economic freedom.

[HillGoose]

DJIA gonna be at 35,000 by year end am I right??

waitin on that Nike swoosh shaped recovery

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

DJIA gonna be at 35,000 by year end am I right??

waitin on that Nike swoosh shaped recovery

It's supposed to be 100,000.

https://www.amazon.com/Dow-100-000-Fact-Fiction/dp/0735201374

[Calthrina950]

This is certainly true. For example, as I'm sure you're aware, this has arisen in your home state of Texas. Harris County Judge Lina Hidalgo issued an order last week mandating that all residents there wear masks in public, or face a $1,000 fine for not doing so. Governor Abbott, however, in issuing his executive order today outlining Texas's gradual reopening process, explicitly overruled the fine requirement, stating that local jurisdictions in Texas cannot fine or penalize people who don't want to wear masks. In addition to Harris County, Bexar, Travis, and Dallas Counties, and the city of Laredo had also issued mandatory mask orders. Any penalties from those orders are overridden as well.

[...] I'm not responding to anything Badger wrote

Say what you will about it, but the local Police Union in Harris County, in addition (of course) to the local GOP, protested vigorously when Hidalgo issued her order, as dd many of that county's more conservative-leaning residents. Neighboring Montgomery County, to the north of Houston, which is a very Republican suburban county, explicitly announced around the same time that it would not mandate its residents to wear masks in public. And the vast majority of rural counties in Texas aren't doing so, either.

This all feeds back to a point I've made before: that wearing masks are more likely to be mandated in Democratic-controlled areas than in Republican-controlled ones. Democrats (and rightly so) see masks as a necessary measure to contain the pandemic, while Republicans are concerned about the inconveniences that they pose, as well as more legitimate concerns about personal freedom. One other thing. I saw an article that in your home state, Governor DeWine was originally going to mandate mask-wearing in public, but he walked back on that. Probably due to those same concerns I've noted.

The Police Union was upset after Hidalgo ordered the county jail to release inmates charged with violent crimes, including murder. Now she is in essence ordering the police to enforce her edict. They will likely be required to use racial quotas in enforcement.

Hidalgo is likely upset that Mayor Turner has pushed back on closing businesses such as construction and big box stores dealing in contraband such as cucumber seeds.

Democrats likely see imposition of masks as controlling the populace, a mark of submission. Republicans are more concerned about liberty and economic freedom.

I don't think this is true. As I've said previously, I think Democrats see it as a necessary measure to control the pandemic (though I've also expressed my unease with the mandatory orders that have been issued, as I understand the objections people have to them from a personal liberty perspective). And this argument (that masks are a control mechanism applied to the public by Democrats) is one that I've seen frequently when scanning the comment boards of right-leaning websites such as The Federalist, Townhall, and Newsbusters. To me, it's just another indication of how partisan considerations have marked the debate over this virus, if you will.

[Blue3]

A dog has now tested positive for coronavirus

https://time.com/5828413/dog-coronavirus/

That's been reported before.

https://twitter.com/JenniferJJacobs/status/1255184301458669571

I do not see how the Executive Branch can unilaterally immunize these companies from liability.  Would one of our resident lawyers comment?

Frick if I know. Perhaps it is limiting liability for violation of FDA or other food and health/safety regulations enforced by the Department of Agriculture or Department of Commerce. Even those regulations would largely require proper administrative rule finding and the like,.

In all seriousness, the other alternative explanation is this is the equivalent of trump waving a stick he claims is a magic wand and proclaiming himself King of the Moon. He has been known issues such Fantasyland unenforceable orders multiple times in the past, being egged on by a combination of ever present sycophants and unitary executive theorists In The West Wing.

Food production facilities are pretty damn essential, and it seems to be the Federal government would be justified taking emergency measures to shield them from liability under a "Crisis Standard of Care" type framework.  

But many of the plants have had high COVID-19 positive test results.

And so many are also illegal immigrants, and we know how easy Trump has been things for them.

They might literally become too sick to work, enough at one plant that most get sick, and then infect many many more.

https://www.virginiamercury.com/2020/04/27/meatpacking-plants-have-become-coronavirus-hotspots-across-the-u-s-in-virginia-no-ones-giving-workers-much-information/?fbclid=IwAR2D9N_EEXBw7SG1xWHOOUvuiQLwONHQoZRguzoCb40rMrg88l_d-AC7T3s

[wbrocks67]

Coronavirus update: German infection rate ticks higher after reopening moves, offers lesson to U.S. governors

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/coronavirus-update-german-infection-rate-ticks-higher-after-reopening-moves-offers-lesson-to-us-governors-2020-04-28

[Panda Express]

There was an increase in testing which coincided with the increase in detected cases.

One might as easily conclude that shoving a probe up one's nostril towards the crown of the head stimulates the corona gland causing release of coronavirus.

Democrats likely see imposition of masks as controlling the populace, a mark of submission. Republicans are more concerned about liberty and economic freedom.

now why you gotta come on to the Atlas Forum COVID-19 megathread, where the top medical minds on the internet have gathered, and post stupid sh*t?

[Donald Trump’s Toupée]

60k officially dead in the US now because of the virus in a few weeks.

And that’s only the numbers from hospitals and nursing homes.

Based on weekly death data from other countries (which are tracking all deaths in a country, also those at home), the real numbers could be 50% higher or twice as high.

Not sure why people are still quoting these grossly inaccurate numbers, like they mean anything. But okay.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Someone asked about Singapore recently:

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1255310843610349571

[The Free North]

I'm absolutely livid about the meat processing plants bring forced back open. What protections will there be for the workers? Smithfield in Sioux Falls was already a major hotspot. Most people aren't willing to work meat processing plants, which is why many employee illegal immigrants as well. How are these places going to be staffed? There was no forethought or any real consideration put into this decision. Ugh.

Thats not whats going to happen.

Most plants are shut for 2 weeks or shut indefinitely. Trumps order weakens liability for the big packing companies once they do re-open, but in no way means they're going to open anytime soon.

This is all about making sure Tyson, etc won't be sued whenever they do get a skeleton crew back to work. No one will force workers back against their will. The industry has massive labor issues as it is, that would be suicidal.

[Tender Branson]

60k officially dead in the US now because of the virus in a few weeks.

And that’s only the numbers from hospitals and nursing homes.

Based on weekly death data from other countries (which are tracking all deaths in a country, also those at home), the real numbers could be 50% higher or twice as high.

Not sure why people are still quoting these grossly inaccurate numbers, like they mean anything. But okay.

What do you think is inaccurate ?

[Holmes]

60k officially dead in the US now because of the virus in a few weeks.

And that’s only the numbers from hospitals and nursing homes.

Based on weekly death data from other countries (which are tracking all deaths in a country, also those at home), the real numbers could be 50% higher or twice as high.

Not sure why people are still quoting these grossly inaccurate numbers, like they mean anything. But okay.

What do you think is inaccurate ?

Because he thinks the pandemic isn’t real or is overblown and that we should all go out and boost the economy to help Trump’s re-election chances.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

I'm absolutely livid about the meat processing plants bring forced back open. What protections will there be for the workers? Smithfield in Sioux Falls was already a major hotspot. Most people aren't willing to work meat processing plants, which is why many employee illegal immigrants as well. How are these places going to be staffed? There was no forethought or any real consideration put into this decision. Ugh.

Thats not whats going to happen.

Most plants are shut for 2 weeks or shut indefinitely. Trumps order weakens liability for the big packing companies once they do re-open, but in no way means they're going to open anytime soon.

This is all about making sure Tyson, etc won't be sued whenever they do get a skeleton crew back to work. No one will force workers back against their will. The industry has massive labor issues as it is, that would be suicidal.

No one is being coerced with physical violence but in several states governers are threatening the next most-coercive thing.

In Iowa, Governor Kim Reynolds (R) said failing to return to work would be considered a “voluntary quit,” which would terminate an employee’s benefits.

"If you're an employer and you offer to bring your employee back to work and they decide not to, that's a voluntary quit," Reynolds said Friday. "Therefore, they would not be eligible for the unemployment money."

The governor also said employers should file a report with Iowa Workforce Development if they encounter workers who refuse to come back to their jobs.

One of the qualifications for unemployment benefits is that workers must be “willing and able to work all the days and hours required for the type of work you are seeking,” according to the Texas Workforce Commission.

Those who choose not to return become ineligible for unemployment benefits, said Cisco Gamez, a Texas Workforce Commission spokesman. If workers have concerns about whether their employer is following health guidelines, Gamez said they should contact the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration.

Thankfully, Texas is walking that back and developing some sort of workaround for this, although details remain to be seen.

[Update: On April 28, a day after this story originally published, Gamez said the agency is developing parameters for what might allow Texans to continue qualifying for unemployment insurance if they refuse to return to work at a business reopened by Gov. Greg Abbott’s loosened executive order because they fear contracting or spreading the coronavirus.]

[lfromnj]

I'm absolutely livid about the meat processing plants bring forced back open. What protections will there be for the workers? Smithfield in Sioux Falls was already a major hotspot. Most people aren't willing to work meat processing plants, which is why many employee illegal immigrants as well. How are these places going to be staffed? There was no forethought or any real consideration put into this decision. Ugh.

Meat packing plants are actually the valid argument to that people would work those dirty jobs for a higher wage because that is what people did from the 1950s to the 1980s. Increased supply of labor both illegal and legal crashed the average wages of meatpacking jobs, Im not arguing against immigration for this reason as this also had the effect of keeping meat cheap for millions of Americans. This is a freeer market which is a good thing but  its absurd to deny higher wages wouldn't encourage other Americans to work these jobs.

I'm not sure this (bolded claim) is true in 2020 the same way it was true in 1960. The work in a meat packing plant hasn't gotten that much less physical demanding (whereas most other manual labor has, meaning packing jobs are relatively less attractive) and there are several cases where after ICE raids plant operators tried to fill in their open positions with domestic labor with poor retention. E.g., in Postville Iowa they trucked in unemployed people from Texas all the way to Ohio after a 2008 raid and most of them quit within four months; this was in the middle of the Recession when there weren't that many other places for these people to find work so it's not likely they quit because they found better pay elsewhere.

I will concede that it will be true in a current scenario that a firm literally can't afford to pay more at an individual plant because that would mean a rise in the sale cost (these plants in general have very low margins IIRC) so therefore if they raise wages and prices every other plant that still hires illegals/immigrants will still keep nearly the same price for their wholesale products . Anyway I find it absurd to demand higher wages for these immigrants such as more system checks and higher minimum wage instead of just at that point discourage immigration and let Americans work it. However keeping cheap labor is good for tens of millions of Americans overall as their meat is now much cheaper. If we go to the point of encouraging higher wages at these plants while still having a labor supply overflow it merely just causes higher meat prices and greater unemployment.

My point was a little bit larger than applying to a single firm elevating wages and facing disadvantage in a competitive market, but this really isn't my specialty so I'm not going to push the point too far.

We might not be looking at or responding to the same things but most of the outrage I am seeing about this (which I agree with) is at the lack of mandatory workplace protections and the liability waivers associated with the act. Obviously having a functioning food supply chain is essential work and invoking the DPA is warranted here but it's insane and inhumane to expect workers to work under these conditions, not have any requirements being put in place to keep them safe, and having the employers shielded from liability which also reduces the likelihood of meaningful safety improvements (which are obviously needed given the outbreaks we're seeing) implemented. Seems to me like getting some sort of mandatory OSHA safety rules is higher priority than higher wages. This is especially scary in areas without enforcement of distancing which let infected plant employees infect others in the community.

.I just mostly went off topic on OP's line that its impossible for Americans to work meatpacking jobs when they literally did a quarter century ago.

[Gass3268]

60k officially dead in the US now because of the virus in a few weeks.

And that’s only the numbers from hospitals and nursing homes.

Based on weekly death data from other countries (which are tracking all deaths in a country, also those at home), the real numbers could be 50% higher or twice as high.

Not sure why people are still quoting these grossly inaccurate numbers, like they mean anything. But okay.

I know right, CDC data says they are actually too low:

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1255502123644661768?s=21

[Gass3268]

Doesn’t really matter if states open up, people won’t go back to normal behavior until they think things are safe. People don’t want to die on the alter of “the economy.”

https://twitter.com/politidope/status/1255521031793582080?s=21

[Crumpets]

60k officially dead in the US now because of the virus in a few weeks.

And that’s only the numbers from hospitals and nursing homes.

Based on weekly death data from other countries (which are tracking all deaths in a country, also those at home), the real numbers could be 50% higher or twice as high.

Not sure why people are still quoting these grossly inaccurate numbers, like they mean anything. But okay.

I know right, CDC data says they are actually too low:

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1255502123644661768?s=21

Worth noting not all of the COVID-19 death toll is from the disease itself. In New York especially where hospitals and first responders have been stretched thin for weeks, overdoses, suicides, and other assorted deaths have also been abnormally high from the anecdotal evidence we have.

[GP270watch]

.I just mostly went off topic on OP's line that its impossible for Americans to work meatpacking jobs when they literally did a quarter century ago.

 Meat packing jobs have historically always been done by immigrants, second generation Americans, and African Americans(who didn't have many other options). You're not being realistic about the history of these jobs.

 Also the mistake Trump is going to make of absolving the plants from liability doesn't change that workers will sick and it will be nearly impossible to replace them. The plants needed government resources and best practices to stop illness spreading. Not bogus executive order from Trump that won't magically solve anything.

[Koharu]

.I just mostly went off topic on OP's line that its impossible for Americans to work meatpacking jobs when they literally did a quarter century ago.

Meat packing jobs have historically always been done by immigrants, second generation Americans, and African Americans(who didn't have many other options). You're not being realistic about the history of these jobs.

And I didn't say it was impossible, just that most Americans aren't willing. If wages were doubled out tripled, then yes, Moore folks would be willing. But the companies can't afford that kind of jump right now, and neither can American consumers, because their own wages have stagnated and meat is seen and used as a staple to the American diet rather than an add-on or luxury.

[GP270watch]

.I just mostly went off topic on OP's line that its impossible for Americans to work meatpacking jobs when they literally did a quarter century ago.

Meat packing jobs have historically always been done by immigrants, second generation Americans, and African Americans(who didn't have many other options). You're not being realistic about the history of these jobs.

And I didn't say it was impossible, just that most Americans aren't willing. If wages were doubled out tripled, then yes, Moore folks would be willing. But the companies can't afford that kind of jump right now, and neither can American consumers, because their own wages have stagnated and meat is seen and used as a staple to the American diet rather than an add-on or luxury.

It's basically impossible. I've seen this with farming, they can double wages and it doesn't matter. They hire too few people, the ones they hire can't hack it, the few who stick with it are nowhere near as productive as the immigrants who are farmers in their native country and are used to the labor and productivity for their basic survival. These immigrants also earn/work their way out of these jobs to better jobs in construction or factories but they have a replaceable group of workers from their native or similar countries coming right behind them.

[Badger]

There was an increase in testing which coincided with the increase in detected cases.

One might as easily conclude that shoving a probe up one's nostril towards the crown of the head stimulates the corona gland causing release of coronavirus.

Democrats likely see imposition of masks as controlling the populace, a mark of submission. Republicans are more concerned about liberty and economic freedom.

now why you gotta come on to the Atlas Forum COVID-19 megathread, where the top medical minds on the internet have gathered, and post stupid sh*t?

That is some seriously stupid to the point of offencive stuff. No Jimrtex, Democrats support wearing masks because we don't want the contagion to spread, and have a modicum of consideration for others unlike delusionists like yourself.

It really pisses me off that people like me are worried about the health and safety of not only our own family and friends, but even those of your own. And you write us off as essentially not even being part of the same Society and country with some black helicopter type language.

Go back to deconstructing redistricting Maps, because you are neither good at, nor worthy of respect in, this discussion.

I've resolved try to quit responding to various cement heads whose opinions will never change despite facts and logic, but that really pissed me off.