Israel General Discussion: The Return of the Rotation Government

[Zinneke]

The Haredim always manage to sneak into these governments. Ugh.

Tbh? We had a "thin" government without the Haredim in 2013 and nothing really changed. If we want secular reforms, we need to get the religious zionists out just as much as the Haredim. And if we want good government, we need to get Likud out of power.

Honestly, the pace snd scale of secularization in Israel is so dramatic that it doesn't really matter what the government does. Society is running laps around government and the Haredi foot-dragging can br viewed as a desperate attempt to slow things down. The reality is that even Haredi society is moving faster than government, so the Haredi political game is something of a joke.

How so?

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/LahavHarkov/status/1254722004562960384

This just about sums it all up doesn't it?

[Zinneke]

I mean, even many Likudists must be aware that some of the US Christian Right only "support" Israel because they actually believe in the Rapture? Doesn't it bother them just a weeny bit??

Would it bother you if it meant you had an army of useful idiots to block vote for a useful idiot every 4 years?

[Zinneke]

Just out of curiosity, on a scale of 1 to 10, how close is Avigdor Lieberman to the old Russian organised crime networks? Is there any political backlash/ethnic stereotyping the other way from religious types who view him and his community as ''not real Jews''?

[Zinneke]

Just out of curiosity, on a scale of 1 to 10, how close is Avigdor Lieberman to the old Russian organised crime networks? Is there any political backlash/ethnic stereotyping the other way from religious types who view him and his community as ''not real Jews''?

1/ who knows? there were some suspicious evidence in his court case (like his driver who took the money vanished in Russia and some burned body in the Ukraine was found with his passport on him with the passport in good shape). or links to dodgy figures in Russia and the Serbian Republic in Bosnia. but who really knows? I wouldn't rule it out but I wouldn't put him down as a soldier as well.

Wow. Also wasn´t there a party in the 90s also with the initials YB but the B stood for something else, and it was basically a front for the Russian Mafia in Israel?

Edit : found it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yisrael_BaAliyah

2/ of course there is. that's what enabled him to break the chains that locked him in the right bloc since 2009.

Do they specifically single out Russian Jews though (as opposed to Secular Jews in general)?

[Zinneke]

Just out of curiosity, on a scale of 1 to 10, how close is Avigdor Lieberman to the old Russian organised crime networks? Is there any political backlash/ethnic stereotyping the other way from religious types who view him and his community as ''not real Jews''?

1/ who knows? there were some suspicious evidence in his court case (like his driver who took the money vanished in Russia and some burned body in the Ukraine was found with his passport on him with the passport in good shape). or links to dodgy figures in Russia and the Serbian Republic in Bosnia. but who really knows? I wouldn't rule it out but I wouldn't put him down as a soldier as well.

Wow. Also wasn´t there a party in the 90s also with the initials YB but the B stood for something else, and it was basically a front for the Russian Mafia in Israel?

Edit : found it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yisrael_BaAliyah

2/ of course there is. that's what enabled him to break the chains that locked him in the right bloc since 2009.

Do they specifically single out Russian Jews though (as opposed to Secular Jews in general)?

Yisrael Baliah wasn’t a mafia cover, they were a pure sectarian party for Russians led by Sheranski who was many things but not a wise guy. Eventually assimilated into Likud (Edelstein came from there).

Shas singles out Russians on several occasions. UTJ care less as their constituents don’t marry every busty willing blonde Russian girl.

Shas constituents marry blonde Russian girls?! Surely not the Haredi?

[Zinneke]

Yamina going to the opposition! Great news. Just to understand to lengths to which Bibi had to go to get rid of them- he offered them the chairmanship of the Committee for Public Complaints. Now Bibi is free to distribute more Ministries among his people, including possibly Health or Education (which I'm still hoping KL will take).

Also, Gantz is giving Yoaz H*ndel an important ministry- Communications. I'd add that this is one of the ministries most important to Bibi. Lol

Do they specifically single out Russian Jews though (as opposed to Secular Jews in general)?

I'd just like to add my two cents as an Israeli Russian- first, the Russian community in Israel definitely isn't some crime nexus, and Sharansky's party was just a normal secterian party (that sadly wasn't able to permanently wrest control of the Home Ministry from Shas.

As for Shas, I'll start by saying that yes, there's a lot of racism in the Russian community- against Arabs, against Ethiopian Jews, and against Sephardic Jews. It often makes me ashamed to be a Russian. But Shas is areal racist party- there's no election in which they don't use dog whistles or active racism against Russians. One instance was when they made an ad in which a "proper Jewish Sephardic guy" is marrying a "blonde Russian woman" who turns to be non-Jewish, as a warning on the "dangers" of easy conversion to Judaism for these Russians (who are x100 times the patriots and x100 times more helpful to Israel than Shas' base, but I digress). Last time, Deri said that "you can't walk in the Immigration Ministry without knowing Russian" and promised to demand that protfolio in the government (a promise that since disappeared). He also promoted a disgusting idea of checking the DNA of Russian immigrants to ensure that they do have Jewish roots, saying that "unfortunately we have hundreds of thousands of non Jews admitted [from Russia]".

Thanks for your insight. I'm sorry if I came across as implying Russian Jews were all criminals. There's now a sizeable amount of organised criminals who are non-Russian too, some of whom have infiltrated the Likud. I am starting to realise though why YB broke away so easily from the Hasidic parties.

Could you link the Shas ad? It seems almost surreal, but then Shaked's ad did too

[Zinneke]

3, all this really gives me the vibe Shas are a nasty party, even by the standards of Isreali politics.

They're just basically a cult. I worked in a polling place in the April election, and one woman who came from another city came looking for a polling place where you could vote as an absentee. She was distressed because "it's a sacred obligation to vote Shas". They use their dead Rabbie, Ovadia Yossef, who was really popular, in all their ads, telling voters that he's "looking from above" and that they have to vote Shas for him. They also sold charms against covid-19 last time and other "blessings" every election. Not to mention the fact that their leader served a jail sentence for corruption and is now due to be indicted again.

I'm laughing at the the irony that they attack Russians for mafia stuff while they are basically THE mafia in Isreali politics, due to their exceptional corruption. Is that bad?

Well, they have no organzied or violent crime connections that I know of. Generally, mafia stuff isn't really an issue in Israeli politics (save pershaps for instances like the witnesses in Lieberman's trial, um, disappearing). But I think it's an accurate assessment that both Shas and YB represent the bad sides of their sects and not the good (sadly, I think this can be said for a lot of sectarial parties- the Haredim, the religious zionists, even the Arabs to an extent).

There's some pretty serious allegations in Misha Glenny's book McMafia (which led to be interested in how Russian Jews are perceived) that Likud was infiltrated by organised crime.

After Dubai, Israel is the next money laundering capital of the Middle East...

[Zinneke]

3, all this really gives me the vibe Shas are a nasty party, even by the standards of Isreali politics.

They're just basically a cult. I worked in a polling place in the April election, and one woman who came from another city came looking for a polling place where you could vote as an absentee. She was distressed because "it's a sacred obligation to vote Shas". They use their dead Rabbie, Ovadia Yossef, who was really popular, in all their ads, telling voters that he's "looking from above" and that they have to vote Shas for him. They also sold charms against covid-19 last time and other "blessings" every election. Not to mention the fact that their leader served a jail sentence for corruption and is now due to be indicted again.

I'm laughing at the the irony that they attack Russians for mafia stuff while they are basically THE mafia in Isreali politics, due to their exceptional corruption. Is that bad?

Well, they have no organzied or violent crime connections that I know of. Generally, mafia stuff isn't really an issue in Israeli politics (save pershaps for instances like the witnesses in Lieberman's trial, um, disappearing). But I think it's an accurate assessment that both Shas and YB represent the bad sides of their sects and not the good (sadly, I think this can be said for a lot of sectarial parties- the Haredim, the religious zionists, even the Arabs to an extent).

There's some pretty serious allegations in Misha Glenny's book McMafia (which led to be interested in how Russian Jews are perceived) that Likud was infiltrated by organised crime.

After Dubai, Israel is the next money laundering capital of the Middle East...

Seems like a sensationalist claim to me (as well every organized crime allegation ever). Considering Income Tax Authority in Israel is pretty tough and strong.

Organized crime in Israel is very low scale and very low-fi. Likudniks definitely have some ties to criminals, but they're petty criminals.

Part for holding houses in Israel, Russian mobsters don't seem to be money laundering here in a large scale

Don't Russians tend to prefer Cyprus as a money store, as opposed to Isreal?

You are right, Cyprus is also mentioned in the book as a money laundering scene.
A country that should never have been let into the EU.

[Zinneke]

3, all this really gives me the vibe Shas are a nasty party, even by the standards of Isreali politics.

They're just basically a cult. I worked in a polling place in the April election, and one woman who came from another city came looking for a polling place where you could vote as an absentee. She was distressed because "it's a sacred obligation to vote Shas". They use their dead Rabbie, Ovadia Yossef, who was really popular, in all their ads, telling voters that he's "looking from above" and that they have to vote Shas for him. They also sold charms against covid-19 last time and other "blessings" every election. Not to mention the fact that their leader served a jail sentence for corruption and is now due to be indicted again.

I'm laughing at the the irony that they attack Russians for mafia stuff while they are basically THE mafia in Isreali politics, due to their exceptional corruption. Is that bad?

Well, they have no organzied or violent crime connections that I know of. Generally, mafia stuff isn't really an issue in Israeli politics (save pershaps for instances like the witnesses in Lieberman's trial, um, disappearing). But I think it's an accurate assessment that both Shas and YB represent the bad sides of their sects and not the good (sadly, I think this can be said for a lot of sectarial parties- the Haredim, the religious zionists, even the Arabs to an extent).

There's some pretty serious allegations in Misha Glenny's book McMafia (which led to be interested in how Russian Jews are perceived) that Likud was infiltrated by organised crime.

After Dubai, Israel is the next money laundering capital of the Middle East...

Seems like a sensationalist claim to me (as well every organized crime allegation ever). Considering Income Tax Authority in Israel is pretty tough and strong.

Organized crime in Israel is very low scale and very low-fi. Likudniks definitely have some ties to criminals, but they're petty criminals.

Part for holding houses in Israel, Russian mobsters don't seem to be money laundering here in a large scale

Don't Russians tend to prefer Cyprus as a money store, as opposed to Isreal?

I really don't know, it's possible. But claiming Israel is a secret hub for covert organized crime activity is quite fantastic

But not out of the question, given Israel has certain caracteristics, such as a sizeable diaspora that organised crime there can use as a cover to disguise dodgy transfers. And a porous border. And a much more open society than any country in the region. White collar crime is hardly reserved to countries like them but in the land of the blind the one eyed is king.

I can imagine that since the 1990s and 2000s where the sudden opening of capital around the world took authorities by surprise they have cleaned up their act.

[Zinneke]

Michaeli announced she’s voting against the confidence motion which means she will have to split from Labour.

https://twitter.com/ReactionVideos_/status/1121038886082314241?s=20

Who do you think she will join?

[Zinneke]

Is it true Israel is going into full lockdown again? Like shut stores and everything?

[Zinneke]

One reason why international reporting of Israeli politics is so bad these days is the fact that most of the people filing the copy on it cut their teeth back when it was dominated by those two big hyper-ideological blocks*, and have failed to adjust to everything that has changed since the end of that period.

_{*Average age of international Middle East reporters and correspondents is now amongst the oldest in journalism.}

Labor Zionism vs Revisionist Zionism? Those are pretty much dead ideologies at this point.

Yet Likud still exists? How has it evolved since then?

[Zinneke]

One reason why international reporting of Israeli politics is so bad these days is the fact that most of the people filing the copy on it cut their teeth back when it was dominated by those two big hyper-ideological blocks*, and have failed to adjust to everything that has changed since the end of that period.

_{*Average age of international Middle East reporters and correspondents is now amongst the oldest in journalism.}

Labor Zionism vs Revisionist Zionism? Those are pretty much dead ideologies at this point.

Yet Likud still exists? How has it evolved since then?

Is this question genuine or a joke? Because I’m not sure if I should answer it.

Labour v Revisionist is dead yes, but the new divides build on the old ones so it’s in the background, same as the 80’s-90’s are in the background of the new divide emerging now between conservative and liberal camps.

Yeah what kaoras said : how come Likud survived but Labour didn't.

[Zinneke]

What exactly does Bennett stand for then? The Anti-Netenyahu?

[Zinneke]

i just randomly saw a video on twitter about Hallel Rabin. Do conscientious objectors really get jailed like that? When Orthodox ones don't? you really start to see Liebermann's point if that's the case.

[Zinneke]

Stupid question but did Yamina have a specific ethnic/religious group voting bloc before it became suddenly popular? Like primarily Ashkenazi/Sephardi or Reform Orthodox . I remember someone saying they attracted black kippa wearers but maybe that was about Shas.