COVID-19 Megathread 4: Grandma Got Run Over by the Dow Jones

[Badger]

Florida and DeSantis have been raked over the coals on here and in much of the media.

At what point do facts enter the conversation?  We've been hearing for a month now that Florida is about to explode and DeSantis committed mass murder by not closing beaches (lol).  Florida has less deaths than Illinois despite having millions more residents, and at the same time has tested about 20K more and has a similar number of infected.  Somehow JB has been praised on here for his strong response.

Anyone willing to admit they were just making stuff up when the said beaches were going to cause mass death?

Combining logic, common sense, science and history to make informed predictions about the future is not "making stuff up".

If you did any of that, you wouldn't have been saying all the dumb things you said.

Great. Now finish him off with "I know you are but what am I".

Contribute, or zip it.

"Zip it?" I am undone by the orotory of this modern day Cato!. Alas!!

[Sbane]

https://mobile.twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1247341470450962432

Ah, good ol' Trumpian corruption.

Nah, I doubt the Plaquenil brand sells much. The generic is what is available right now on the market with plans to produce large quantities of the generic in the near future, not just in the US but in other countries as well. Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin are also the cheapest options out of the various therapies used for Covid-19. I would love it if these two drugs were proven to be effective since they are cheap and widely available. The data just isn't there though. We don't have the studies we need to have a clear answer. There are also other questions such as whether it shows any benefit in those who have a mild form of the illness. What about those who are in critical condition? Prophylactic use? We have more questions than answers right now.

And just to be clear, I wish Trump would stop pushing for this drug and let the doctors do their work. Many doctors around the country are already starting to use this medication not because Trump told them to, but because it's the best option we have right now, besides breathing treatments and albuterol inhalers, to try and keep people out of the hospital.

[T'Chenka]

Florida and DeSantis have been raked over the coals on here and in much of the media.

At what point do facts enter the conversation?  We've been hearing for a month now that Florida is about to explode and DeSantis committed mass murder by not closing beaches (lol).  Florida has less deaths than Illinois despite having millions more residents, and at the same time has tested about 20K more and has a similar number of infected.  Somehow JB has been praised on here for his strong response.

Anyone willing to admit they were just making stuff up when the said beaches were going to cause mass death?

Combining logic, common sense, science and history to make informed predictions about the future is not "making stuff up".

If you did any of that, you wouldn't have been saying all the dumb things you said.

Great. Now finish him off with "I know you are but what am I".

Contribute, or zip it.

"Zip it?" I am undone by the orotory of this modern day Cato!. Alas!!

Green Line =

EDIT - LOL I just noticed in the last 1.5 seconds of that video, he makes an extremely Trumpian hand gesture

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://youtu.be/qO2gRTqG1KA


Ben is amazing and the part with the economist is particularly great

[Meclazine for Israel]

Penn Quaker Girl assured me that mathematically we can assume that 10,000+ will die AT MINIMUM. She studies / works with epidemics so I respect her advice regarding COV-19.

Quoted for posterity.

Let's check back on that prediction in 2 months time in the USA, and see how the logic of your argument unfolds.

You have 9,907 deaths remaining.

It took 20 days.

Touche. My impertinence was definitely visible on this occasion.

Incredible rate of mortality compared to where we were 20 days ago. I would not have ever imagined that mortality in any amount of time.

The contagion speed has been phenomenal.

[TJ in Oregon]

Florida and DeSantis have been raked over the coals on here and in much of the media.

At what point do facts enter the conversation?  We've been hearing for a month now that Florida is about to explode and DeSantis committed mass murder by not closing beaches (lol).  Florida has less deaths than Illinois despite having millions more residents, and at the same time has tested about 20K more and has a similar number of infected.  Somehow JB has been praised on here for his strong response.

Anyone willing to admit they were just making stuff up when the said beaches were going to cause mass murder?

It's very likely still the inebriated undergrads who they allowed to keep partying there went home and seeded outbreaks all over the place. Even if we kept most of America open and running, it's the sort of thing you'd need to ban real fast if you want to get coronavirus under control.

Something that you can't really prove, and aside from that, it wasn't the narrative we were pushed.  I heard many times that DeSantis needs to be impeached for killing his own residents.  Spring Break was very much over when people were still calling the beaches a place of great danger.

Histronics aside, you're going to have a hard time acting in a crisis if you only do things based on what you can absolutely prove. Heck, you couldn't do my engineering job if that was your standard either. You sometimes have to estimate to make calculated risks. This was a risk that should not have been taken.

When the question is whether or not to restrict the rights of Americans, you're going to need a little more evidence that people walking around on empty beaches is a risk.  Miami and most other major cities had already closed their own beaches on their own accord.  I'm talking about the whole state.

Presumably they'd run into the same problems we've had everywhere with this thing. In Oregon for instance, the first weekend after the shutdowns began, seemingly everyone tried to all go to the beach and parks. So after no one followed the social distancing requests, they shut down the beaches and parks too, which really sucks. If people were walking around alone on empty beaches, they probably wouldn't have needed to close them. It's a shame people won't behave so we can't have nice things.

[T'Chenka]

https://youtu.be/qO2gRTqG1KA

Ben is amazing

I'll just leave this here...

[Beet]

Temperatures across the South are mercifully getting to that summer level, which is going to severely help cover up the negligence of the Governors in those areas. I'd rather they make decisions that are boneheaded and manage to escape the consequences than that catastrophe happens. I'm rooting for Florida.

Here's another one:

https://twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/1247357060943142916

https://twitter.com/ossoff/status/1247275032109334528

They knew.

[Green Line]

Florida and DeSantis have been raked over the coals on here and in much of the media.

At what point do facts enter the conversation?  We've been hearing for a month now that Florida is about to explode and DeSantis committed mass murder by not closing beaches (lol).  Florida has less deaths than Illinois despite having millions more residents, and at the same time has tested about 20K more and has a similar number of infected.  Somehow JB has been praised on here for his strong response.

Anyone willing to admit they were just making stuff up when the said beaches were going to cause mass murder?

It's very likely still the inebriated undergrads who they allowed to keep partying there went home and seeded outbreaks all over the place. Even if we kept most of America open and running, it's the sort of thing you'd need to ban real fast if you want to get coronavirus under control.

Something that you can't really prove, and aside from that, it wasn't the narrative we were pushed.  I heard many times that DeSantis needs to be impeached for killing his own residents.  Spring Break was very much over when people were still calling the beaches a place of great danger.

Histronics aside, you're going to have a hard time acting in a crisis if you only do things based on what you can absolutely prove. Heck, you couldn't do my engineering job if that was your standard either. You sometimes have to estimate to make calculated risks. This was a risk that should not have been taken.

When the question is whether or not to restrict the rights of Americans, you're going to need a little more evidence that people walking around on empty beaches is a risk.  Miami and most other major cities had already closed their own beaches on their own accord.  I'm talking about the whole state.

Presumably they'd run into the same problems we've had everywhere with this thing. In Oregon for instance, the first weekend after the shutdowns began, seemingly everyone tried to all go to the beach and parks. So after no one followed the social distancing requests, they shut down the beaches and parks too, which really sucks. If people were walking around alone on empty beaches, they probably wouldn't have needed to close them. It's a shame people won't behave so we can't have nice things.

My rights to leave my house (and in Chicago, go in a park) should not revolve around other people's good or bad behavior.  Your thought process seems flawed.

[TJ in Oregon]

^
From the article:

However, Perdue’s financial disclosures also list transactions that appear to contradict allegations he is profiting off inside information about the virus. He sold nearly $400,000 in shares of Kroger, even as the grocer faces increased demand. He invested as much as $75,000 in retailer Urban Outfitter before all its stores were closed, although savvy investors often buy a stock when its price is down and they think it’s a good value.

Perdue’s spokeswoman said everything on his report reflects business as usual with his financial advisers making every call. The senator has spent recent weeks focused on connecting Georgians affected by the pandemic with information and resources, including helping those stuck overseas find a way home, she said.

[Sbane]

NYC vs. the rest of the country (including SF which also has high public transit commuting, dense housing, and a large homeless population and is rather amazingly doing fine) makes me wonder if closing schools might be the single most important intervention?  Japan closed schools very early and while they are having some issues now (2nd wave?), they seem to be doing very well vs. the free world average. 

One relevant point to consider when talking about density is that the highest concentrations in the NY area are not in NYC on a per capita basis, but rather in Westchester and Rockland Counties north of the city, followed by Nassau County, and only then by the Bronx and Queens. Even within the city, the per capita rate doesn't follow density; Manhattan is by far the densest borough but has the lowest per capita rate of the five boroughs and is lower than multiple suburban counties (those mentioned above and also Orange and Suffolk Counties and Bergen County, NJ, which all also have higher per capita rates than Brooklyn).

This all suggests that NYC's severe outbreak relative to other cities is mostly down to bad luck (perhaps some early super-spreader cases) rather than density.

The varying rates within the Metro might come down to demographics - with suburban counties being older than the relatively young City. 

I suspect this a density story through-and-through.  NYC is 60% denser than SF and more transit-centric (55% of households in NYC don’t have a car, only 30% in SF).

Shutting down early is just as important. SF is denser than LA but LA has been less successful at bending the curve than SF. The Bay Area shut down just a few days earlier than the rest of California and took it a bit more seriously than the rest of California as well as the country, and the results show.

So far the # of cases in the population looks pretty consistent between SF and LA.  1:1515 in SF, 1:1585 in LA County.  By what metric is SF doing much better than the rest of California?

There was community spread first in the Bay Area. The virus is now spreading faster in the rest of California than in the Bay Area. Look at the county map on NYT. Most of the Bay Area has cases doubling every 7 days or more. Rest of California is a little less than that, and about half that in places like Kern, San Bernardino and Riverside. Los Angeles County is doubling every 4.5 days. Orange County and Ventura County are also doing a good job flattening the curve. Correlates well with education levels as well. Social distancing works.

[TJ in Oregon]

Florida and DeSantis have been raked over the coals on here and in much of the media.

At what point do facts enter the conversation?  We've been hearing for a month now that Florida is about to explode and DeSantis committed mass murder by not closing beaches (lol).  Florida has less deaths than Illinois despite having millions more residents, and at the same time has tested about 20K more and has a similar number of infected.  Somehow JB has been praised on here for his strong response.

Anyone willing to admit they were just making stuff up when the said beaches were going to cause mass murder?

It's very likely still the inebriated undergrads who they allowed to keep partying there went home and seeded outbreaks all over the place. Even if we kept most of America open and running, it's the sort of thing you'd need to ban real fast if you want to get coronavirus under control.

Something that you can't really prove, and aside from that, it wasn't the narrative we were pushed.  I heard many times that DeSantis needs to be impeached for killing his own residents.  Spring Break was very much over when people were still calling the beaches a place of great danger.

Histronics aside, you're going to have a hard time acting in a crisis if you only do things based on what you can absolutely prove. Heck, you couldn't do my engineering job if that was your standard either. You sometimes have to estimate to make calculated risks. This was a risk that should not have been taken.

When the question is whether or not to restrict the rights of Americans, you're going to need a little more evidence that people walking around on empty beaches is a risk.  Miami and most other major cities had already closed their own beaches on their own accord.  I'm talking about the whole state.

Presumably they'd run into the same problems we've had everywhere with this thing. In Oregon for instance, the first weekend after the shutdowns began, seemingly everyone tried to all go to the beach and parks. So after no one followed the social distancing requests, they shut down the beaches and parks too, which really sucks. If people were walking around alone on empty beaches, they probably wouldn't have needed to close them. It's a shame people won't behave so we can't have nice things.

My rights to leave my house (and in Chicago, go in a park) should not revolve around other people's good or bad behavior.  Your thought process seems flawed.

I'm not really sure what to tell you besides that life isn't fair. Clearly what we're allowed to do in a situation like this is going to be dependent on how other people respond. The government can't have two separate sets of laws, one for Green Line and one of the rest of us.

[Green Line]

Florida and DeSantis have been raked over the coals on here and in much of the media.

At what point do facts enter the conversation?  We've been hearing for a month now that Florida is about to explode and DeSantis committed mass murder by not closing beaches (lol).  Florida has less deaths than Illinois despite having millions more residents, and at the same time has tested about 20K more and has a similar number of infected.  Somehow JB has been praised on here for his strong response.

Anyone willing to admit they were just making stuff up when the said beaches were going to cause mass murder?

It's very likely still the inebriated undergrads who they allowed to keep partying there went home and seeded outbreaks all over the place. Even if we kept most of America open and running, it's the sort of thing you'd need to ban real fast if you want to get coronavirus under control.

Something that you can't really prove, and aside from that, it wasn't the narrative we were pushed.  I heard many times that DeSantis needs to be impeached for killing his own residents.  Spring Break was very much over when people were still calling the beaches a place of great danger.

Histronics aside, you're going to have a hard time acting in a crisis if you only do things based on what you can absolutely prove. Heck, you couldn't do my engineering job if that was your standard either. You sometimes have to estimate to make calculated risks. This was a risk that should not have been taken.

When the question is whether or not to restrict the rights of Americans, you're going to need a little more evidence that people walking around on empty beaches is a risk.  Miami and most other major cities had already closed their own beaches on their own accord.  I'm talking about the whole state.

Presumably they'd run into the same problems we've had everywhere with this thing. In Oregon for instance, the first weekend after the shutdowns began, seemingly everyone tried to all go to the beach and parks. So after no one followed the social distancing requests, they shut down the beaches and parks too, which really sucks. If people were walking around alone on empty beaches, they probably wouldn't have needed to close them. It's a shame people won't behave so we can't have nice things.

My rights to leave my house (and in Chicago, go in a park) should not revolve around other people's good or bad behavior.  Your thought process seems flawed.

I'm not really sure what to tell you besides that life isn't fair. Clearly what we're allowed to do in a situation like this is going to be dependent on how other people respond. The government can't have two separate sets of laws, one for Green Line and one of the rest of us.

I hope you can keep that attitude when it comes to something else like the Church.  No more communion hosts or Blood of Christ because the Govt. says its unsanitary.  Life isn't fair.

If we all took that attitude, nothing would ever change.

[It’s so Joever]

Florida and DeSantis have been raked over the coals on here and in much of the media.

At what point do facts enter the conversation?  We've been hearing for a month now that Florida is about to explode and DeSantis committed mass murder by not closing beaches (lol).  Florida has less deaths than Illinois despite having millions more residents, and at the same time has tested about 20K more and has a similar number of infected.  Somehow JB has been praised on here for his strong response.

Anyone willing to admit they were just making stuff up when the said beaches were going to cause mass murder?

It's very likely still the inebriated undergrads who they allowed to keep partying there went home and seeded outbreaks all over the place. Even if we kept most of America open and running, it's the sort of thing you'd need to ban real fast if you want to get coronavirus under control.

Something that you can't really prove, and aside from that, it wasn't the narrative we were pushed.  I heard many times that DeSantis needs to be impeached for killing his own residents.  Spring Break was very much over when people were still calling the beaches a place of great danger.

Histronics aside, you're going to have a hard time acting in a crisis if you only do things based on what you can absolutely prove. Heck, you couldn't do my engineering job if that was your standard either. You sometimes have to estimate to make calculated risks. This was a risk that should not have been taken.

When the question is whether or not to restrict the rights of Americans, you're going to need a little more evidence that people walking around on empty beaches is a risk.  Miami and most other major cities had already closed their own beaches on their own accord.  I'm talking about the whole state.

Presumably they'd run into the same problems we've had everywhere with this thing. In Oregon for instance, the first weekend after the shutdowns began, seemingly everyone tried to all go to the beach and parks. So after no one followed the social distancing requests, they shut down the beaches and parks too, which really sucks. If people were walking around alone on empty beaches, they probably wouldn't have needed to close them. It's a shame people won't behave so we can't have nice things.

My rights to leave my house (and in Chicago, go in a park) should not revolve around other people's good or bad behavior.  Your thought process seems flawed.

“My right to make empty threats about murdering a political figure shouldn’t revolve around other people’s good or bad behavior!”
“My right to go into any government building I desire without being screened shouldn’t revolve around other people’s good or bad behavior!”
“My right to own a nuclear missile shouldn’t revolve around other people’s good or bad behavior!”

Your thought process seems flawed.

[Devout Centrist]

My rights to leave my house (and in Chicago, go in a park) should not revolve around other people's good or bad behavior.  Your thought process seems flawed.

We live in a society.

[Green Line]

Florida and DeSantis have been raked over the coals on here and in much of the media.

At what point do facts enter the conversation?  We've been hearing for a month now that Florida is about to explode and DeSantis committed mass murder by not closing beaches (lol).  Florida has less deaths than Illinois despite having millions more residents, and at the same time has tested about 20K more and has a similar number of infected.  Somehow JB has been praised on here for his strong response.

Anyone willing to admit they were just making stuff up when the said beaches were going to cause mass murder?

It's very likely still the inebriated undergrads who they allowed to keep partying there went home and seeded outbreaks all over the place. Even if we kept most of America open and running, it's the sort of thing you'd need to ban real fast if you want to get coronavirus under control.

Something that you can't really prove, and aside from that, it wasn't the narrative we were pushed.  I heard many times that DeSantis needs to be impeached for killing his own residents.  Spring Break was very much over when people were still calling the beaches a place of great danger.

Histronics aside, you're going to have a hard time acting in a crisis if you only do things based on what you can absolutely prove. Heck, you couldn't do my engineering job if that was your standard either. You sometimes have to estimate to make calculated risks. This was a risk that should not have been taken.

When the question is whether or not to restrict the rights of Americans, you're going to need a little more evidence that people walking around on empty beaches is a risk.  Miami and most other major cities had already closed their own beaches on their own accord.  I'm talking about the whole state.

Presumably they'd run into the same problems we've had everywhere with this thing. In Oregon for instance, the first weekend after the shutdowns began, seemingly everyone tried to all go to the beach and parks. So after no one followed the social distancing requests, they shut down the beaches and parks too, which really sucks. If people were walking around alone on empty beaches, they probably wouldn't have needed to close them. It's a shame people won't behave so we can't have nice things.

My rights to leave my house (and in Chicago, go in a park) should not revolve around other people's good or bad behavior.  Your thought process seems flawed.

“My right to make empty threats about murdering a political figure shouldn’t revolve around other people’s good or bad behavior!”
“My right to go into any government building I desire without being screened shouldn’t revolve around other people’s good or bad behavior!”
“My right to own a nuclear missile shouldn’t revolve around other people’s good or bad behavior!”

Your thought process seems flawed.

You just compared walking alone on a beach to:

1) Political assasination
2) Nuclear war

This is why we desperately needs schools to reopen.

[brucejoel99]

My rights to leave my house (and in Chicago, go in a park) should not revolve around other people's good or bad behavior.  Your thought process seems flawed.

We live in a society.

Gamers, shelter in place?

[It’s so Joever]

Florida and DeSantis have been raked over the coals on here and in much of the media.

At what point do facts enter the conversation?  We've been hearing for a month now that Florida is about to explode and DeSantis committed mass murder by not closing beaches (lol).  Florida has less deaths than Illinois despite having millions more residents, and at the same time has tested about 20K more and has a similar number of infected.  Somehow JB has been praised on here for his strong response.

Anyone willing to admit they were just making stuff up when the said beaches were going to cause mass murder?

It's very likely still the inebriated undergrads who they allowed to keep partying there went home and seeded outbreaks all over the place. Even if we kept most of America open and running, it's the sort of thing you'd need to ban real fast if you want to get coronavirus under control.

Something that you can't really prove, and aside from that, it wasn't the narrative we were pushed.  I heard many times that DeSantis needs to be impeached for killing his own residents.  Spring Break was very much over when people were still calling the beaches a place of great danger.

Histronics aside, you're going to have a hard time acting in a crisis if you only do things based on what you can absolutely prove. Heck, you couldn't do my engineering job if that was your standard either. You sometimes have to estimate to make calculated risks. This was a risk that should not have been taken.

When the question is whether or not to restrict the rights of Americans, you're going to need a little more evidence that people walking around on empty beaches is a risk.  Miami and most other major cities had already closed their own beaches on their own accord.  I'm talking about the whole state.

Presumably they'd run into the same problems we've had everywhere with this thing. In Oregon for instance, the first weekend after the shutdowns began, seemingly everyone tried to all go to the beach and parks. So after no one followed the social distancing requests, they shut down the beaches and parks too, which really sucks. If people were walking around alone on empty beaches, they probably wouldn't have needed to close them. It's a shame people won't behave so we can't have nice things.

My rights to leave my house (and in Chicago, go in a park) should not revolve around other people's good or bad behavior.  Your thought process seems flawed.

“My right to make empty threats about murdering a political figure shouldn’t revolve around other people’s good or bad behavior!”
“My right to go into any government building I desire without being screened shouldn’t revolve around other people’s good or bad behavior!”
“My right to own a nuclear missile shouldn’t revolve around other people’s good or bad behavior!”

Your thought process seems flawed.

You just compared walking alone on a beach to:

1) Political assasination
2) Nuclear war

This is why we desperately needs schools to reopen.

You can’t seem to understand the overall message.
This is why we need to reopen schools.
Green Line must retake English.

[Green Line]

My rights to leave my house (and in Chicago, go in a park) should not revolve around other people's good or bad behavior.  Your thought process seems flawed.

We live in a society.

We're literally living in a day where people are arguing that leaving your home is not a right.

Sure, its not written in the Constitution, because no Founding Father even considered it a ing possibility that we would live to see that.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

https://mobile.twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1247341470450962432

Novartis to donate malaria drug in fight against coronavirus

Novartis will donate enough doses of malaria drug hydroxychloroquine to treat several million patients in the fight against the coronavirus, if it wins approval, the Swiss company said on Friday.

There are no vaccines or treatments approved for the disease, but there is currently a 1,500-person trial, led by the University of Minnesota, to see whether hydroxychloroquine can prevent or reduce the severity of COVID-19. Two other trials are studying blood pressure drug losartan as a possible treatment.

Novartis makes the malaria drug, which is also used to treat lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, at its Sandoz unit in the United States. It plans to donate 130 million doses of the drug and is in talks with U.S. Food and Drug Administration regulators over expanding its use for coronavirus.

Not mentioned in the article, nor at any of the appearances of Doctor Don's Medicine Show:

Former Novartis CEO Explains Why His Company Paid Trump Lawyer Michael Cohen $1.2 Million (May 16, 2018)

Obviously, just because a major manufacturer of hydroxychloroquine is promoting the drug as a remedy for COVID-19 patients, and previously paid the Presiden't (now imprisoned) lawyer for $1.2 million doesn't mean that their efforts to help cannot be sincere. But neither does it mean there's no corruption going on.

[It’s so Joever]

My rights to leave my house (and in Chicago, go in a park) should not revolve around other people's good or bad behavior.  Your thought process seems flawed.

We live in a society.

We're literally living in a day where people are arguing that leaving your home is not a right.

Sure, its not written in the Constitution, because no Founding Father even considered it a ing possibility that we would live to see that.

That’s the exact same line of thinking people use to make the argument to overturn the second amendment. Just saying.

[Green Line]

My rights to leave my house (and in Chicago, go in a park) should not revolve around other people's good or bad behavior.  Your thought process seems flawed.

We live in a society.

We're literally living in a day where people are arguing that leaving your home is not a right.

Sure, its not written in the Constitution, because no Founding Father even considered it a ing possibility that we would live to see that.

That’s the exact same line of thinking people use to make the argument to overturn the second amendment. Just saying.

I hate the second amendment and would agree the founders never predicted what it would become.  (Although I don't argue we ignore it).

You have a lot to learn about this town, honey.

[TJ in Oregon]

Florida and DeSantis have been raked over the coals on here and in much of the media.

At what point do facts enter the conversation?  We've been hearing for a month now that Florida is about to explode and DeSantis committed mass murder by not closing beaches (lol).  Florida has less deaths than Illinois despite having millions more residents, and at the same time has tested about 20K more and has a similar number of infected.  Somehow JB has been praised on here for his strong response.

Anyone willing to admit they were just making stuff up when the said beaches were going to cause mass murder?

It's very likely still the inebriated undergrads who they allowed to keep partying there went home and seeded outbreaks all over the place. Even if we kept most of America open and running, it's the sort of thing you'd need to ban real fast if you want to get coronavirus under control.

Something that you can't really prove, and aside from that, it wasn't the narrative we were pushed.  I heard many times that DeSantis needs to be impeached for killing his own residents.  Spring Break was very much over when people were still calling the beaches a place of great danger.

Histronics aside, you're going to have a hard time acting in a crisis if you only do things based on what you can absolutely prove. Heck, you couldn't do my engineering job if that was your standard either. You sometimes have to estimate to make calculated risks. This was a risk that should not have been taken.

When the question is whether or not to restrict the rights of Americans, you're going to need a little more evidence that people walking around on empty beaches is a risk.  Miami and most other major cities had already closed their own beaches on their own accord.  I'm talking about the whole state.

Presumably they'd run into the same problems we've had everywhere with this thing. In Oregon for instance, the first weekend after the shutdowns began, seemingly everyone tried to all go to the beach and parks. So after no one followed the social distancing requests, they shut down the beaches and parks too, which really sucks. If people were walking around alone on empty beaches, they probably wouldn't have needed to close them. It's a shame people won't behave so we can't have nice things.

My rights to leave my house (and in Chicago, go in a park) should not revolve around other people's good or bad behavior.  Your thought process seems flawed.

I'm not really sure what to tell you besides that life isn't fair. Clearly what we're allowed to do in a situation like this is going to be dependent on how other people respond. The government can't have two separate sets of laws, one for Green Line and one of the rest of us.

I hope you can keep that attitude when it comes to something else like the Church.  No more communion hosts or Blood of Christ because the Govt. says its unsanitary.  Life isn't fair.

If we all took that attitude, nothing would ever change.

One main difference is that religious practice has an explicit constitutional protection that going to the beach does not.

That being said, for better or worse, the Church chose to comply with authorities who shut her down. My Archbishop has forbidden the laity from receiving communion even privately (presumably to prevent favortism from creeping in with the most pushy parishioners). I do think the government was too quick to shut down Churches when we still (at least here in Oregon) had gyms and tanning salons still open. It will be interesting to watch if the authorities allow Churches to reopen freely after this or if the public health crisis "lasts" longer with churches than it does with businesses. As our government's priorities indicate, they clearly believe churches to be recreational facilities.

As an aside, I'm not sure what the government in Illinois has done, but Oregon is still allowing people to go outside alone without asking questions. So this means I can still go for a run or take a walk. I'm thankful for that, since otherwise this would be much more difficult than it already is.

[Green Line]

Florida and DeSantis have been raked over the coals on here and in much of the media.

At what point do facts enter the conversation?  We've been hearing for a month now that Florida is about to explode and DeSantis committed mass murder by not closing beaches (lol).  Florida has less deaths than Illinois despite having millions more residents, and at the same time has tested about 20K more and has a similar number of infected.  Somehow JB has been praised on here for his strong response.

Anyone willing to admit they were just making stuff up when the said beaches were going to cause mass murder?

It's very likely still the inebriated undergrads who they allowed to keep partying there went home and seeded outbreaks all over the place. Even if we kept most of America open and running, it's the sort of thing you'd need to ban real fast if you want to get coronavirus under control.

Something that you can't really prove, and aside from that, it wasn't the narrative we were pushed.  I heard many times that DeSantis needs to be impeached for killing his own residents.  Spring Break was very much over when people were still calling the beaches a place of great danger.

Histronics aside, you're going to have a hard time acting in a crisis if you only do things based on what you can absolutely prove. Heck, you couldn't do my engineering job if that was your standard either. You sometimes have to estimate to make calculated risks. This was a risk that should not have been taken.

When the question is whether or not to restrict the rights of Americans, you're going to need a little more evidence that people walking around on empty beaches is a risk.  Miami and most other major cities had already closed their own beaches on their own accord.  I'm talking about the whole state.

Presumably they'd run into the same problems we've had everywhere with this thing. In Oregon for instance, the first weekend after the shutdowns began, seemingly everyone tried to all go to the beach and parks. So after no one followed the social distancing requests, they shut down the beaches and parks too, which really sucks. If people were walking around alone on empty beaches, they probably wouldn't have needed to close them. It's a shame people won't behave so we can't have nice things.

My rights to leave my house (and in Chicago, go in a park) should not revolve around other people's good or bad behavior.  Your thought process seems flawed.

I'm not really sure what to tell you besides that life isn't fair. Clearly what we're allowed to do in a situation like this is going to be dependent on how other people respond. The government can't have two separate sets of laws, one for Green Line and one of the rest of us.

I hope you can keep that attitude when it comes to something else like the Church.  No more communion hosts or Blood of Christ because the Govt. says its unsanitary.  Life isn't fair.

If we all took that attitude, nothing would ever change.

One main difference is that religious practice has an explicit constitutional protection that going to the beach does not.

That being said, for better or worse, the Church chose to comply with authorities who shut her down. My Archbishop has forbidden the laity from receiving communion even privately (presumably to prevent favortism from creeping in with the most pushy parishioners). I do think the government was too quick to shut down Churches when we still (at least here in Oregon) had gyms and tanning salons still open. It will be interesting to watch if the authorities allow Churches to reopen freely after this or if the public health crisis "lasts" longer with churches than it does with businesses. As our government's priorities indicate, they clearly believe churches to be recreational facilities.

As an aside, I'm not sure what the government in Illinois has done, but Oregon is still allowing people to go outside alone without asking questions. So this means I can still go for a run or take a walk. I'm thankful for that, since otherwise this would be much more difficult than it already is.

Beaches is just an example.  You could replace it with any activitiy that requires going outdoors and it would remain the same.  I've heard dozens of people in the past month argue that you don't actually need to go to the Church to practice your faith.  An online stream is sufficient to meet the requirements of the 1st Amendment according to many.  Personally, that's not a "life isn't fair" issue for me.  I will speak out.  The Church is willing to comply with a lot, but some things are not negotiable for more than a short period of a few weeks, such as Holy Communion.

[TJ in Oregon]

Florida and DeSantis have been raked over the coals on here and in much of the media.

At what point do facts enter the conversation?  We've been hearing for a month now that Florida is about to explode and DeSantis committed mass murder by not closing beaches (lol).  Florida has less deaths than Illinois despite having millions more residents, and at the same time has tested about 20K more and has a similar number of infected.  Somehow JB has been praised on here for his strong response.

Anyone willing to admit they were just making stuff up when the said beaches were going to cause mass murder?

It's very likely still the inebriated undergrads who they allowed to keep partying there went home and seeded outbreaks all over the place. Even if we kept most of America open and running, it's the sort of thing you'd need to ban real fast if you want to get coronavirus under control.

Something that you can't really prove, and aside from that, it wasn't the narrative we were pushed.  I heard many times that DeSantis needs to be impeached for killing his own residents.  Spring Break was very much over when people were still calling the beaches a place of great danger.

Histronics aside, you're going to have a hard time acting in a crisis if you only do things based on what you can absolutely prove. Heck, you couldn't do my engineering job if that was your standard either. You sometimes have to estimate to make calculated risks. This was a risk that should not have been taken.

When the question is whether or not to restrict the rights of Americans, you're going to need a little more evidence that people walking around on empty beaches is a risk.  Miami and most other major cities had already closed their own beaches on their own accord.  I'm talking about the whole state.

Presumably they'd run into the same problems we've had everywhere with this thing. In Oregon for instance, the first weekend after the shutdowns began, seemingly everyone tried to all go to the beach and parks. So after no one followed the social distancing requests, they shut down the beaches and parks too, which really sucks. If people were walking around alone on empty beaches, they probably wouldn't have needed to close them. It's a shame people won't behave so we can't have nice things.

My rights to leave my house (and in Chicago, go in a park) should not revolve around other people's good or bad behavior.  Your thought process seems flawed.

I'm not really sure what to tell you besides that life isn't fair. Clearly what we're allowed to do in a situation like this is going to be dependent on how other people respond. The government can't have two separate sets of laws, one for Green Line and one of the rest of us.

I hope you can keep that attitude when it comes to something else like the Church.  No more communion hosts or Blood of Christ because the Govt. says its unsanitary.  Life isn't fair.

If we all took that attitude, nothing would ever change.

One main difference is that religious practice has an explicit constitutional protection that going to the beach does not.

That being said, for better or worse, the Church chose to comply with authorities who shut her down. My Archbishop has forbidden the laity from receiving communion even privately (presumably to prevent favortism from creeping in with the most pushy parishioners). I do think the government was too quick to shut down Churches when we still (at least here in Oregon) had gyms and tanning salons still open. It will be interesting to watch if the authorities allow Churches to reopen freely after this or if the public health crisis "lasts" longer with churches than it does with businesses. As our government's priorities indicate, they clearly believe churches to be recreational facilities.

As an aside, I'm not sure what the government in Illinois has done, but Oregon is still allowing people to go outside alone without asking questions. So this means I can still go for a run or take a walk. I'm thankful for that, since otherwise this would be much more difficult than it already is.

Beaches is just an example.  You could replace it with any activitiy that requires going outdoors and it would remain the same.  I've heard dozens of people in the past month argue that you don't actually need to go to the Church to practice your faith.  An online stream is sufficient to meet the requirements of the 1st Amendment according to many.  Personally, that's not a "life isn't fair" issue for me.  I will speak out.  The Church is willing to comply with a lot, but some things are not negotiable for more than a short period of a few weeks, such as Holy Communion.

I think we're basically in agreement then. I'd put the Church more on the grocery store level than the tanning salon level when it comes to shutdowns. The beach I'd put on the tanning salon level.