Resist The Authoritarian Response To The Coronavirus

[Fuzzy Bear]

https://www.dailywire.com/news/compliance-would-be-disobedience-prominent-california-church-defies-state-lockdown-to-resume-in-person-assembly

Amen to all of this.  God Bless John MacArthur.

The bible says  (paraphrasing here) that it's better to pray in private instead of virtue signalling your religiousness to others. Jesus would almost certainly in these times advocate for private / family prayer and phone / text / email / video chat / streaming with your pastor and congregation.

Why does MacArthur ignore all of this and put his local community at risk? Why are you cheerleading this?

You are not correctly dividing the Word of God above.  (Although the verse you have in mind does address "virtue signaling".)

Scripture also says "Forsake not the assembling of one another."  Scripture also says of believers "They will lay hands on the sick and they will recover."  (One of the signs that follow believers in the last chapter of Mark.)  Scripture tells the ill to call for the elders of the church and anoint them with oil and the prayer of faith will save the sick.  (As someone whose son was miraculously healed of a broken foot as a teenager, I have some difficulty squaring the idea of churches cancelling "healing services" with what Scripture says.)  

I am endorsing what Rev. MacArthur (not our Gen. MacArthur) is doing because it lines up with Scripture.  Point by point, what he says conforms to Scripture.  It is right that the God's People assert that Christ, and not Caesar, is the Head of the Church.  It is also past time that the Body of Christ in America truly assert this, in love, but in Christ as well.

I've recently added a bit of life experience that's caused me to reflect on this.

My wife and I both tested postive for COVID-19 earlier this month.  We all quarantined for 14 days (actually for 15 days).  We were all pretty much asymptomatic; I had body aches for a day and my wife had some diarrhea.  Now I'm 63, I'm an essential worker, and I've got to work.  My wife is 65, and a cancer survivor.  My son is 15 and has mild asthma.  This question weighs on my mind every day.  I think every day of my wife.  But my wife and I think every day of our son and the whole of his health.  My wife doesn't work; she's voluntarily locked down homeschooling our son.  But I have to work, and we have determined that my son's mental well-being demands some outside activities that are available.  

So I've thought about this issue all around.  I will tell you that if my wife didn't decide to go to the doctor, I wouldn't have.  If I weren't an essential worker, I wouldn't have gotten tested.  What would have happened then was that I would have gone back to work as if nothing happened.  I wonder how much I've been near asymptomatic folks.  I suppose I'll never know.  But I am convinced that it is God that protects me, and He is either going to protect me or He is not.

There is no reason for the kind of orders Gavin Newsome has ordered to not have church.  COVID-19 does not have that kind of fatality rate to order this, and much of the high fatality rates in America are due to Cuomo's mismanagement of elderly COVID-19 patients.  These orders are not statutes and they are given by people like Gavin Newsome who, quite frankly, loathes John MacArthur and his congregation because they are not his political allies.  Abortion clinics and liquor stores remain open.  These folks are in Gavin Newsome's corner.  The curve has been flattened.  It was flattened long ago.  The goalposts have been moved by the enemies of the church.  There is no reason for Rev. MacArthur to consider the people ordering this to be sincerely concerned with their welfare.  

Here's what Gavin Newsome said about protesters:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/your-rage-is-real-gavin-newsom-tells-california-protesters/ar-BB14THDJ

“For those of you out there protesting, I want you to know that you matter,” Newsom said. “To those who want to express themselves... God bless you. Keep doing it. Your rage is real.”

Why Rev. MacArthur should not view Newsome as someone with a gross double standard is beyond me.  He's the Governor of California, and he's kept abortion clinics going while people can't get elective surgeries.  Political?  Why shouldn't Rev. MacArthur and his congregation thing so?

It's time for America to go back to Church.  2 Chronicles 7:14 says:  "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My Face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, and I will forgive their sin and their their land (emphasis added)."  The death rate is hardly catastrophic.  We have been given all sorts of misinformation, and more of it is from Donald Trump's enemies than from Donald Trump.  It's still problematic, but it may, in fact, be here to stay.  What if none of these vaccines pan out?  It's time to live our lives, live them for God, and trust Him in all things.  Trusting involves obeying Him.  And if protesters should "keep doing it", I'm at a total loss for why the Church shouldn't.

[T'Chenka]

It's time for America to go back to Church.  2 Chronicles 7:14 says:  "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My Face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, and I will forgive their sin and their their land (emphasis added)."  The death rate is hardly catastrophic.  We have been given all sorts of misinformation, and more of it is from Donald Trump's enemies than from Donald Trump.  It's still problematic, but it may, in fact, be here to stay.  What if none of these vaccines pan out?  It's time to live our lives, live them for God, and trust Him in all things.  Trusting involves obeying Him.  And if protesters should "keep doing it", I'm at a total loss for why the Church shouldn't.

Fuzzy, once again, two wrongs don't make a right. If the protestors didn't socially distance and spread the virus, that doesn't make it okay for others to do the same. It makes them both wrong. You should listen to the PROFESSIONAL SCIENTISTS Fuzzy, who understand how this virus works. They're saying a vaccine is not guaranteed but it's likely we'll get one at some point. They also say how dangerous and deadly this virus is. Those scientists used the brains God gave them to investigate the virus that came from God's creatures. So trust in God by trusting in science. Leave the politics at the door as much as possible when dabbling in epidemiology.

By the way, God bless your wife, your son and yourself. I'm very glad that you are all okay.

[Fuzzy Bear]

We listen to scientists. PERIOD.

If scientists are urging temporary authoritarian measures, we TEMPORARILY adopt them.

Why are some people hellbent on getting everybody killed over "Muh Freedom"? This isn't everyday politics and rights, we are in a life and death emergency here. The same rules don't apply and as someone else said, your rights do not extend into the lungs of others.

We're way past this.  This is a post that hasn't aged well.

I could give the post some credence when it was posted, but "the science" supports reopening schools.  Yet the Science Worshipers of March are ignoring science because it is politically inconvenient.  Following science (including the science of psychology and mental health) does not justify keeping schools closed.

We were also told that the purpose of all these lockdowns was to "flatten the curve".  That was accomplished long ago.  Now, the goalposts have been moved.  Now, people are saying we have to be locked down "until there's no more cases" or "until there's a vaccine".  That may not be possible.  More importantly, that wasn't the deal back then.  And we've been lied to; we've been shamed and threatened for wanting to go church, gyms, or just open businesses.  But the same leaders who shame and threaten ordinary law-abiding citizens for insisting on living their lives and maintaining their livelihoods commend large groups for protesting "racism", pandemic or no pandemic.  

This is all politically expedient hypocrisy.  It's something those pushing lockdowns and such will not admit to, but these people are not running on "science".  They're running on politics, and all of this is about Donald Trump and driving him from office.  If it weren't, the protesters for George Floyd would have been treated in the same manner as the protesters in Michigan calling for reopening.  

[Fuzzy Bear]

It's time for America to go back to Church.  2 Chronicles 7:14 says:  "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My Face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, and I will forgive their sin and their their land (emphasis added)."  The death rate is hardly catastrophic.  We have been given all sorts of misinformation, and more of it is from Donald Trump's enemies than from Donald Trump.  It's still problematic, but it may, in fact, be here to stay.  What if none of these vaccines pan out?  It's time to live our lives, live them for God, and trust Him in all things.  Trusting involves obeying Him.  And if protesters should "keep doing it", I'm at a total loss for why the Church shouldn't.

Fuzzy, once again, two wrongs don't make a right. If the protestors didn't socially distance and spread the virus, that doesn't make it okay for others to do the same. It makes them both wrong. You should listen to the PROFESSIONAL SCIENTISTS Fuzzy, who understand how this virus works. They're saying a vaccine is not guaranteed but it's likely we'll get one at some point. They also say how dangerous and deadly this virus is. Those scientists used the brains God gave them to investigate the virus that came from God's creatures. So trust in God by trusting in science. Leave the politics at the door as much as possible when dabbling in epidemiology.

By the way, God bless your wife, your son and yourself. I'm very glad that you are all okay.

Were the protesters wrong for hitting the streets?  Should they all have stayed home, social distanced, used Zoom and social media to "have their voice heard"?  Is that what they should have done.  Were they wrong for hitting the streets as they did in the midst of a pandemic?

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

We listen to scientists. PERIOD.

If scientists are urging temporary authoritarian measures, we TEMPORARILY adopt them.

Why are some people hellbent on getting everybody killed over "Muh Freedom"? This isn't everyday politics and rights, we are in a life and death emergency here. The same rules don't apply and as someone else said, your rights do not extend into the lungs of others.

We're way past this.  This is a post that hasn't aged well.

I could give the post some credence when it was posted, but "the science" supports reopening schools.  Yet the Science Worshipers of March are ignoring science because it is politically inconvenient.  Following science (including the science of psychology and mental health) does not justify keeping schools closed.

We were also told that the purpose of all these lockdowns was to "flatten the curve".  That was accomplished long ago.  Now, the goalposts have been moved.  Now, people are saying we have to be locked down "until there's no more cases" or "until there's a vaccine".  That may not be possible.  More importantly, that wasn't the deal back then.  And we've been lied to; we've been shamed and threatened for wanting to go church, gyms, or just open businesses.  But the same leaders who shame and threaten ordinary law-abiding citizens for insisting on living their lives and maintaining their livelihoods commend large groups for protesting "racism", pandemic or no pandemic.  

This is all politically expedient hypocrisy.  It's something those pushing lockdowns and such will not admit to, but these people are not running on "science".  They're running on politics, and all of this is about Donald Trump and driving him from office.  If it weren't, the protesters for George Floyd would have been treated in the same manner as the protesters in Michigan calling for reopening.  

I have to admit I was skeptical of the George Floyd protests early on, precisely because of the pandemic.  But I will note that protesting outdoors, with social distancing and following CDC guidelines, is safer than having (especially pre-high school) children go to school or for people to go to church in close conditions.  Cardinal Dolan brought up the possibility of having mass outdoors.  Rev. MacArthur would do well to tune out the Protestant brain rot and consider that.

But, let's not put Karen's public demand for a haircut on the same level as black people protesting for their own lives and for police reform.  We have a strong segment of the population now convinced that the pandemic is a conspiracy to take away your freedom.  Now if those protestors were living in Hungary, they certainly would have a point as the pandemic has been used as an opportunity for Viktor Orbán to solidify his dictator-like hold over the country.  This is not the case in the US or most developed countries.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

the lyrica's starting to kick in so I hope that made sense

whew boy

[T'Chenka]

It's time for America to go back to Church.  2 Chronicles 7:14 says:  "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My Face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, and I will forgive their sin and their their land (emphasis added)."  The death rate is hardly catastrophic.  We have been given all sorts of misinformation, and more of it is from Donald Trump's enemies than from Donald Trump.  It's still problematic, but it may, in fact, be here to stay.  What if none of these vaccines pan out?  It's time to live our lives, live them for God, and trust Him in all things.  Trusting involves obeying Him.  And if protesters should "keep doing it", I'm at a total loss for why the Church shouldn't.

Fuzzy, once again, two wrongs don't make a right. If the protestors didn't socially distance and spread the virus, that doesn't make it okay for others to do the same. It makes them both wrong. You should listen to the PROFESSIONAL SCIENTISTS Fuzzy, who understand how this virus works. They're saying a vaccine is not guaranteed but it's likely we'll get one at some point. They also say how dangerous and deadly this virus is. Those scientists used the brains God gave them to investigate the virus that came from God's creatures. So trust in God by trusting in science. Leave the politics at the door as much as possible when dabbling in epidemiology.

By the way, God bless your wife, your son and yourself. I'm very glad that you are all okay.

Were the protesters wrong for hitting the streets?  Should they all have stayed home, social distanced, used Zoom and social media to "have their voice heard"?  Is that what they should have done.  Were they wrong for hitting the streets as they did in the midst of a pandemic?

That's a hard question. I'm going to have to say "no".

Outdoors, mask wearing and social distancing all work really well together. I would support a protest OR a church service where all 3 are happening, unless it's a certain area with VERY high levels of COVID.

[T'Chenka]

I could give the post some credence when it was posted, but "the science" supports reopening schools.  Yet the Science Worshipers of March are ignoring science because it is politically inconvenient.  Following science (including the science of psychology and mental health) does not justify keeping schools closed.

Actually it does.

You still haven't explained why your arguments are justifiable as pure ideological statements, and if they are not, you haven't clarified the contexts in which your arguments are being made. Let me help you with that.

(#1) If this is the black plague instead of COVID-19, should schools and churches be open? If so, please provide justification for why.

(#2) If you agree that you'd feel differently if it was black plague, please explain where you draw the line exactly and your justification for why that is an appropriate place to draw the line.

[John Dule]

We were also told that the purpose of all these lockdowns was to "flatten the curve".  That was accomplished long ago.  Now, the goalposts have been moved.

Fuzzy, what the hell do you think you're talking about? The curve never flattened. Every day now we're seeing record-breaking numbers of cases and deaths. No one has moved any goalposts; it's just that the reflexively anti-intellectual elements of American society have refused to take the proper precautions and now we are all paying the price for their behavior. If we shut down the schools when we were seeing a few dozen cases per day, why do you think we should reopen everything now that we're seeing a few thousand per day?

[Fuzzy Bear]

We listen to scientists. PERIOD.

If scientists are urging temporary authoritarian measures, we TEMPORARILY adopt them.

Why are some people hellbent on getting everybody killed over "Muh Freedom"? This isn't everyday politics and rights, we are in a life and death emergency here. The same rules don't apply and as someone else said, your rights do not extend into the lungs of others.

We're way past this.  This is a post that hasn't aged well.

I could give the post some credence when it was posted, but "the science" supports reopening schools.  Yet the Science Worshipers of March are ignoring science because it is politically inconvenient.  Following science (including the science of psychology and mental health) does not justify keeping schools closed.

We were also told that the purpose of all these lockdowns was to "flatten the curve".  That was accomplished long ago.  Now, the goalposts have been moved.  Now, people are saying we have to be locked down "until there's no more cases" or "until there's a vaccine".  That may not be possible.  More importantly, that wasn't the deal back then.  And we've been lied to; we've been shamed and threatened for wanting to go church, gyms, or just open businesses.  But the same leaders who shame and threaten ordinary law-abiding citizens for insisting on living their lives and maintaining their livelihoods commend large groups for protesting "racism", pandemic or no pandemic.  

This is all politically expedient hypocrisy.  It's something those pushing lockdowns and such will not admit to, but these people are not running on "science".  They're running on politics, and all of this is about Donald Trump and driving him from office.  If it weren't, the protesters for George Floyd would have been treated in the same manner as the protesters in Michigan calling for reopening.  

I have to admit I was skeptical of the George Floyd protests early on, precisely because of the pandemic.  But I will note that protesting outdoors, with social distancing and following CDC guidelines, is safer than having (especially pre-high school) children go to school or for people to go to church in close conditions.  Cardinal Dolan brought up the possibility of having mass outdoors.  Rev. MacArthur would do well to tune out the Protestant brain rot and consider that.

But, let's not put Karen's public demand for a haircut on the same level as black people protesting for their own lives and for police reform.  We have a strong segment of the population now convinced that the pandemic is a conspiracy to take away your freedom.  Now if those protestors were living in Hungary, they certainly would have a point as the pandemic has been used as an opportunity for Viktor Orbán to solidify his dictator-like hold over the country.  This is not the case in the US or most developed countries.

Black people protesting for "their own lives" (which, honestly, is melodrama, unless they're protesting against the harm to black lives criminal gangs cause) can be done on social media and Zoom.  The MSM would give spokespeople all sorts of platforms for that, platforms that would "let their voices be heard" without transmitting the virus.  (Of course, you can't loot, burn buildings, destroy monuments of all kinds, occupy police stations, invade the homes of law-abiding citizens, and cause the death of people like David Dorn (who was guarding a business) on Zoom or Facebook.)  "The Science" was suspended for the lawless activity of these people, who did what they did without regard for public health.  And the response of many public officials was to essentially suggest that, somehow, the virus isn't transmitted by protests.  

If COVID-19 is what you say it is, then here's the bottom line:  COVID-19 was a national emergency.  "Racism" was not.  Racism is it a serous problem, but was it really an emergency that justified exceptions for the level of mass activity that occurred while telling law-abiding citizens that they must stay inside?  (George Floyd's death was a tragedy that needed to be politically exploited, but that's another story.)  

It's not about "Karen" (Lori Lightweight) getting a haircut.  It's about law-abiding citizens who, unlike the rioters in the streets who are spreading COVID-19, have lost jobs and need to go back to work, or have been prevented from reopening businesses that represent the investment of their life savings.  It's about people who need minor medical procedures that can't get them.  Compliance with "science" is DEMANDED from law-abiding citizens and law-abiding citizens are THREATENED with sanctions for protesting THEIR lot.  Now they've gotten the message:  Black Lives Matter, but THEIR Lives Don't.  Think about it; the lives of people that obey the law and play by the rules' lives don't matter to many of their leaders.  They are told that they'll spread the virus in church, while persons who rioted and looted in close proximity to each other are excused (and sometimes praised) by the leaders that punish the law-abiding.

That IS what's going on.  It's NOT fair, not in the least.  What's sad is that people here on this Forum can't even admit that.  If people here can't do right by those people to make that simple admission, why should they think their leaders will?  More importantly, why should law-abiding citizens believe that they will transmit the Coronavirus when they go to church, or when they reopen their businesses, when their leaders won't admit that rioters, looters, and "peaceful protesters" were spreading the virus?  That's a question.  If people can't say that the protesters were wrong to protest as they did (and do) during a pandemic, why should people believe that they need to ditch their job and their church for the sake of public health?

[Fuzzy Bear]

It's time for America to go back to Church.  2 Chronicles 7:14 says:  "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My Face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, and I will forgive their sin and their their land (emphasis added)."  The death rate is hardly catastrophic.  We have been given all sorts of misinformation, and more of it is from Donald Trump's enemies than from Donald Trump.  It's still problematic, but it may, in fact, be here to stay.  What if none of these vaccines pan out?  It's time to live our lives, live them for God, and trust Him in all things.  Trusting involves obeying Him.  And if protesters should "keep doing it", I'm at a total loss for why the Church shouldn't.

Fuzzy, once again, two wrongs don't make a right. If the protestors didn't socially distance and spread the virus, that doesn't make it okay for others to do the same. It makes them both wrong. You should listen to the PROFESSIONAL SCIENTISTS Fuzzy, who understand how this virus works. They're saying a vaccine is not guaranteed but it's likely we'll get one at some point. They also say how dangerous and deadly this virus is. Those scientists used the brains God gave them to investigate the virus that came from God's creatures. So trust in God by trusting in science. Leave the politics at the door as much as possible when dabbling in epidemiology.

By the way, God bless your wife, your son and yourself. I'm very glad that you are all okay.

Were the protesters wrong for hitting the streets?  Should they all have stayed home, social distanced, used Zoom and social media to "have their voice heard"?  Is that what they should have done.  Were they wrong for hitting the streets as they did in the midst of a pandemic?

That's a hard question. I'm going to have to say "no".

Outdoors, mask wearing and social distancing all work really well together. I would support a protest OR a church service where all 3 are happening, unless it's a certain area with VERY high levels of COVID.

Then full speed ahead for Rev. MacArthur. 

You're a fellow poster on the Forum.  You're honest about your response, and that's a good thing.  But if that is the response of a public official, it is unacceptable.  It is treating me differently, and it is treating indecent lawbreakers better than decent law-abiding citizens.

[T'Chenka]

We listen to scientists. PERIOD.

If scientists are urging temporary authoritarian measures, we TEMPORARILY adopt them.

Why are some people hellbent on getting everybody killed over "Muh Freedom"? This isn't everyday politics and rights, we are in a life and death emergency here. The same rules don't apply and as someone else said, your rights do not extend into the lungs of others.

We're way past this.  This is a post that hasn't aged well.

I could give the post some credence when it was posted, but "the science" supports reopening schools.  Yet the Science Worshipers of March are ignoring science because it is politically inconvenient.  Following science (including the science of psychology and mental health) does not justify keeping schools closed.

We were also told that the purpose of all these lockdowns was to "flatten the curve".  That was accomplished long ago.  Now, the goalposts have been moved.  Now, people are saying we have to be locked down "until there's no more cases" or "until there's a vaccine".  That may not be possible.  More importantly, that wasn't the deal back then.  And we've been lied to; we've been shamed and threatened for wanting to go church, gyms, or just open businesses.  But the same leaders who shame and threaten ordinary law-abiding citizens for insisting on living their lives and maintaining their livelihoods commend large groups for protesting "racism", pandemic or no pandemic.  

This is all politically expedient hypocrisy.  It's something those pushing lockdowns and such will not admit to, but these people are not running on "science".  They're running on politics, and all of this is about Donald Trump and driving him from office.  If it weren't, the protesters for George Floyd would have been treated in the same manner as the protesters in Michigan calling for reopening.  

I have to admit I was skeptical of the George Floyd protests early on, precisely because of the pandemic.  But I will note that protesting outdoors, with social distancing and following CDC guidelines, is safer than having (especially pre-high school) children go to school or for people to go to church in close conditions.  Cardinal Dolan brought up the possibility of having mass outdoors.  Rev. MacArthur would do well to tune out the Protestant brain rot and consider that.

But, let's not put Karen's public demand for a haircut on the same level as black people protesting for their own lives and for police reform.  We have a strong segment of the population now convinced that the pandemic is a conspiracy to take away your freedom.  Now if those protestors were living in Hungary, they certainly would have a point as the pandemic has been used as an opportunity for Viktor Orbán to solidify his dictator-like hold over the country.  This is not the case in the US or most developed countries.

Black people protesting for "their own lives" (which, honestly, is melodrama, unless they're protesting against the harm to black lives criminal gangs cause) can be done on social media and Zoom.  The MSM would give spokespeople all sorts of platforms for that, platforms that would "let their voices be heard" without transmitting the virus.  (Of course, you can't loot, burn buildings, destroy monuments of all kinds, occupy police stations, invade the homes of law-abiding citizens, and cause the death of people like David Dorn (who was guarding a business) on Zoom or Facebook.)  "The Science" was suspended for the lawless activity of these people, who did what they did without regard for public health.  And the response of many public officials was to essentially suggest that, somehow, the virus isn't transmitted by protests.  

If COVID-19 is what you say it is, then here's the bottom line:  COVID-19 was a national emergency.  "Racism" was not.  Racism is it a serous problem, but was it really an emergency that justified exceptions for the level of mass activity that occurred while telling law-abiding citizens that they must stay inside?  (George Floyd's death was a tragedy that needed to be politically exploited, but that's another story.)  

It's not about "Karen" (Lori Lightweight) getting a haircut.  It's about law-abiding citizens who, unlike the rioters in the streets who are spreading COVID-19, have lost jobs and need to go back to work, or have been prevented from reopening businesses that represent the investment of their life savings.  It's about people who need minor medical procedures that can't get them.  Compliance with "science" is DEMANDED from law-abiding citizens and law-abiding citizens are THREATENED with sanctions for protesting THEIR lot.  Now they've gotten the message:  Black Lives Matter, but THEIR Lives Don't.  Think about it; the lives of people that obey the law and play by the rules' lives don't matter to many of their leaders.  They are told that they'll spread the virus in church, while persons who rioted and looted in close proximity to each other are excused (and sometimes praised) by the leaders that punish the law-abiding.

That IS what's going on.  It's NOT fair, not in the least.  What's sad is that people here on this Forum can't even admit that.  If people here can't do right by those people to make that simple admission, why should they think their leaders will?  More importantly, why should law-abiding citizens believe that they will transmit the Coronavirus when they go to church, or when they reopen their businesses, when their leaders won't admit that rioters, looters, and "peaceful protesters" were spreading the virus?  That's a question.  If people can't say that the protesters were wrong to protest as they did (and do) during a pandemic, why should people believe that they need to ditch their job and their church for the sake of public health?

The BLM protests should have happened. They NEEDED to happen, some might argue, for the long-term future of America. They should not have have happened without masks or social distancing, as some on this forum including myself pointed out and criticized at the time. At least they were outdoors.

I support churches moving outdoors with social distancing and masks, but other than all 3 happening, they should probably stay closed. In person AND indoors church services absolutely do not "need" to happen when they are so many reasonable alternatives with much lower risk to the community. I honestly can't even see the comparison between a necessary cultural movement and having church in a very specific way instead of several reasonable alternatives.

Please don't mention "trained Marxists", because the BLM movement is not heavily coordinated by the BLM organization. I myself do not like or support the organization, despite massively supporting the movement.

[Fuzzy Bear]

We were also told that the purpose of all these lockdowns was to "flatten the curve".  That was accomplished long ago.  Now, the goalposts have been moved.

Fuzzy, what the hell do you think you're talking about? The curve never flattened. Every day now we're seeing record-breaking numbers of cases and deaths. No one has moved any goalposts; it's just that the reflexively anti-intellectual elements of American society have refused to take the proper precautions and now we are all paying the price for their behavior. If we shut down the schools when we were seeing a few dozen cases per day, why do you think we should reopen everything now that we're seeing a few thousand per day?

Low death rates.

Minimal probablity of children transmitting COVID-19 to teachers, according to scientists.

The fact that everyone is OK with what protesters have been doing in the streets.

The proper cost to public officials that have said nothing (or even condoned) the protesting in the streets should be a total loss of credibility on the COVID-19 issue.  They don't deserve credibility; not with such a nakedly political double standard.  Honestly, how dare they lecture law-abiding people on this when they said nothing about the coronavirus to the Mobs in the streets?

[It’s so Joever]

We were also told that the purpose of all these lockdowns was to "flatten the curve".  That was accomplished long ago.  Now, the goalposts have been moved.

Fuzzy, what the hell do you think you're talking about? The curve never flattened. Every day now we're seeing record-breaking numbers of cases and deaths. No one has moved any goalposts; it's just that the reflexively anti-intellectual elements of American society have refused to take the proper precautions and now we are all paying the price for their behavior. If we shut down the schools when we were seeing a few dozen cases per day, why do you think we should reopen everything now that we're seeing a few thousand per day?

Low death rates.

Minimal probablity of children transmitting COVID-19 to teachers, according to scientists.

The fact that everyone is OK with what protesters have been doing in the streets.

The proper cost to public officials that have said nothing (or even condoned) the protesting in the streets should be a total loss of credibility on the COVID-19 issue.  They don't deserve credibility; not with such a nakedly political double standard.  Honestly, how dare they lecture law-abiding people on this when they said nothing about the coronavirus to the Mobs in the streets?

1. Yes death rates are lower, but they are jumping now and the deaths rates from April were so large because of Cuomo’s retirement home insanity and because we didn’t have as many treatment options.

2. False narrative. YOUNG children don’t spread or contract Covid as well. However, studies from South Korea have found that kids 10-19 actually spread it at equivalent/possibly even higher rates than adults.

3. Many people weren’t okay with the protests. I know I wasn’t.

4. Yes it was hypocritical, but that doesn’t change the virus itself.

[John Dule]

Low death rates.

Okay, so the death rates are lower. But at the same time, a much larger proportion of the population is getting sick. To put this in perspective, a virus with a 100% death rate that only infects 10,000 people is much more preferable to a virus with a 1% death rate that infects 100 million people. The danger of the Coronavirus is in its rate of infection, not in its rate of death. Really, this is just a meaningless statistic at a point when millions of people are contracting the virus.

Minimal probablity of children transmitting COVID-19 to teachers, according to scientists.

Uh, I don't think that teachers are really the primary concern here. Little kids are germ buckets; they spew snot everywhere and they insist on touching, licking, and sniffing every surface they come into contact with. On the opposite end of the spectrum, college and high school kids have some of the most active social lives in the country, and their activities are likely to create major hotspots for the virus (incidentally, one appeared in the frat house area of Berkeley at the outset of this pandemic). Are you really going to tell parents in this country not to worry because "There's a minimal probability that children will transmit COVID-19 to their teachers?" Give me a freaking break.

The fact that everyone is OK with what protesters have been doing in the streets.

The proper cost to public officials that have said nothing (or even condoned) the protesting in the streets should be a total loss of credibility on the COVID-19 issue.  They don't deserve credibility; not with such a nakedly political double standard.  Honestly, how dare they lecture law-abiding people on this when they said nothing about the coronavirus to the Mobs in the streets?

Well, I'm not okay with it. And even if I was okay with protesters breaking quarantine to loot and virtue-signal, that wouldn't matter. What's done is done. Playing with whataboutisms is just about the lamest possible argument you could put forth right now. You are way too hung up on the culture war. The pandemic is not related to your personal political vendettas in the slightest.

[Fuzzy Bear]

The fact that everyone is OK with what protesters have been doing in the streets.

The proper cost to public officials that have said nothing (or even condoned) the protesting in the streets should be a total loss of credibility on the COVID-19 issue.  They don't deserve credibility; not with such a nakedly political double standard.  Honestly, how dare they lecture law-abiding people on this when they said nothing about the coronavirus to the Mobs in the streets?

Well, I'm not okay with it. And even if I was okay with protesters breaking quarantine to loot and virtue-signal, that wouldn't matter. What's done is done. Playing with whataboutisms is just about the lamest possible argument you could put forth right now. You are way too hung up on the culture war. The pandemic is not related to your personal political vendettas in the slightest.
[/quote]

So I should just shut up and accept the hypocrisy and injustice?  Is that what you're saying?

People who maintain America are lectured to.  People who have attempted to destroy our cities are given not just empathy, but praise.  "Peaceful Protesters" (who are not the bulk of people in the streets) that have been disregarding all pandemic protocols to virtue signal get to spread the virus with impunity and are praised as "courageous" by public officials.  And law abiding churchgoers are told they can't do what lawbreaking and quarantine-breaking protesters and rioters are praised for.

Why should I just sit here and take that?  Really, why?  Because it's for the greater good?

If Trump is reelected, I will note that, in no small part, our leaders chose to sing the virtue of criminals in the streets while lying about their actual behavior, while lambasting people who are pulling their weight (or being prevented from doing so due to pandemic ridiculousness) and obeying the law.  They chose to enforce quarantines on law-abiding citizens, but not on criminal rioters.

My contempt for the protester grows with every measure taken against law abiding citizens that they have been excused from.

[T'Chenka]

So I should just shut up and accept the hypocrisy and injustice?  Is that what you're saying?

No, but you shouldn't use it as justification for further high-risk activities that further endanger the public. Make sure you vote against or write to the politicians that have failed you, but do not advocate for spreading the virus with a mentality of "THEY got away with their misdeeds, so therefore other groups should get away with it too. It's only fair." That is a very dangerous attitude, which by the way goes against "law and order" and christian doctrines.

[Calthrina950]

It's time for America to go back to Church.  2 Chronicles 7:14 says:  "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My Face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, and I will forgive their sin and their their land (emphasis added)."  The death rate is hardly catastrophic.  We have been given all sorts of misinformation, and more of it is from Donald Trump's enemies than from Donald Trump.  It's still problematic, but it may, in fact, be here to stay.  What if none of these vaccines pan out?  It's time to live our lives, live them for God, and trust Him in all things.  Trusting involves obeying Him.  And if protesters should "keep doing it", I'm at a total loss for why the Church shouldn't.

Fuzzy, once again, two wrongs don't make a right. If the protestors didn't socially distance and spread the virus, that doesn't make it okay for others to do the same. It makes them both wrong. You should listen to the PROFESSIONAL SCIENTISTS Fuzzy, who understand how this virus works. They're saying a vaccine is not guaranteed but it's likely we'll get one at some point. They also say how dangerous and deadly this virus is. Those scientists used the brains God gave them to investigate the virus that came from God's creatures. So trust in God by trusting in science. Leave the politics at the door as much as possible when dabbling in epidemiology.

By the way, God bless your wife, your son and yourself. I'm very glad that you are all okay.

Leaving aside everything else, I second this. This means we've now had three posters on this forum who've contracted coronavirus.

[John Dule]

So I should just shut up and accept the hypocrisy and injustice?  Is that what you're saying?

People who maintain America are lectured to.  People who have attempted to destroy our cities are given not just empathy, but praise.  "Peaceful Protesters" (who are not the bulk of people in the streets) that have been disregarding all pandemic protocols to virtue signal get to spread the virus with impunity and are praised as "courageous" by public officials.  And law abiding churchgoers are told they can't do what lawbreaking and quarantine-breaking protesters and rioters are praised for.

Why should I just sit here and take that?  Really, why?  Because it's for the greater good?

If Trump is reelected, I will note that, in no small part, our leaders chose to sing the virtue of criminals in the streets while lying about their actual behavior, while lambasting people who are pulling their weight (or being prevented from doing so due to pandemic ridiculousness) and obeying the law.  They chose to enforce quarantines on law-abiding citizens, but not on criminal rioters.

My contempt for the protester grows with every measure taken against law abiding citizens that they have been excused from.

By definition, if you violate quarantine you are not a "law-abiding citizen." You can say whatever you like to justify breaking the law-- I might even be sympathetic to some of those arguments-- but the fact remains nonetheless.

I think we all implicitly understand that government officials have given a pass to protesters because they consider it necessary to give those people an outlet for their pent-up anger and frustration. Essentially the protesters threw a hissyfit and the government let them wear themselves out until they got tired. The logistics of arresting every single one of those people were prohibitively costly and authoritarian. And as much as I'd like to lock up vandals who destroy people's private property, it's nearly impossible to determine guilt in a mob. As far as I'm concerned, they are all culpable. But again, arresting an entire mob is no easy task.

Similarly, if you want to strongarm the government into letting you... uh... go to church, be my guest. You're already free to attend socially distanced services outdoors, and you can pray whenever you want, but if you really need to be in the special building, that's what you should do. Get a couple million of your fellow Christians, make signs, and start marching in the streets. Then maybe you'll win the right to sit in a poorly ventilated room with a couple hundred other people, all breathing the same air, in the middle of a pandemic. Honestly Fuzzy, if that's what you want, then that is Darwin Award material-- and at that point you should be allowed to go.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

So I should just shut up and accept the hypocrisy and injustice?  Is that what you're saying?

People who maintain America are lectured to.  People who have attempted to destroy our cities are given not just empathy, but praise.  "Peaceful Protesters" (who are not the bulk of people in the streets) that have been disregarding all pandemic protocols to virtue signal get to spread the virus with impunity and are praised as "courageous" by public officials.  And law abiding churchgoers are told they can't do what lawbreaking and quarantine-breaking protesters and rioters are praised for.

Why should I just sit here and take that?  Really, why?  Because it's for the greater good?

If Trump is reelected, I will note that, in no small part, our leaders chose to sing the virtue of criminals in the streets while lying about their actual behavior, while lambasting people who are pulling their weight (or being prevented from doing so due to pandemic ridiculousness) and obeying the law.  They chose to enforce quarantines on law-abiding citizens, but not on criminal rioters.

My contempt for the protester grows with every measure taken against law abiding citizens that they have been excused from.

By definition, if you violate quarantine you are not a "law-abiding citizen." You can say whatever you like to justify breaking the law-- I might even be sympathetic to some of those arguments-- but the fact remains nonetheless.

I think we all implicitly understand that government officials have given a pass to protesters because they consider it necessary to give those people an outlet for their pent-up anger and frustration. Essentially the protesters threw a hissyfit and the government let them wear themselves out until they got tired. The logistics of arresting every single one of those people were prohibitively costly and authoritarian. And as much as I'd like to lock up vandals who destroy people's private property, it's nearly impossible to determine guilt in a mob. As far as I'm concerned, they are all culpable. But again, arresting an entire mob is no easy task.

Similarly, if you want to strongarm the government into letting you... uh... go to church, be my guest. You're already free to attend socially distanced services outdoors, and you can pray whenever you want, but if you really need to be in the special building, that's what you should do. Get a couple million of your fellow Christians, make signs, and start marching in the streets. Then maybe you'll win the right to sit in a poorly ventilated room with a couple hundred other people, all breathing the same air, in the middle of a pandemic. Honestly Fuzzy, if that's what you want, then that is Darwin Award material-- and at that point you should be allowed to go.

I received a notification of a protest outside my house on Saturday, so I figured it was the same as every one before. I was actually shocked to run into a blocks-long parade marching behind a golden cross, a few MAGA shirts but many more Christian signs. I would never have heard of it if I didn't select that time to get groceries. It was a mildly annoying inconvenience to try and cross the street as they all passed by with the help of crossing guards, but clearly it did not rise to the level of mass destruction needed to bring any sort of attention to their cause - (whatever their cause was since they should be able to worship as they please). Why is there any reason to believe our dishonest media would give these people the time of day?

[Mail-order President]

Not an argument.  But I wouldn't expect any more from atlas.

[MAPZZ]

The fact that everyone is OK with what protesters have been doing in the streets.

The proper cost to public officials that have said nothing (or even condoned) the protesting in the streets should be a total loss of credibility on the COVID-19 issue.  They don't deserve credibility; not with such a nakedly political double standard.  Honestly, how dare they lecture law-abiding people on this when they said nothing about the coronavirus to the Mobs in the streets?

Well, I'm not okay with it. And even if I was okay with protesters breaking quarantine to loot and virtue-signal, that wouldn't matter. What's done is done. Playing with whataboutisms is just about the lamest possible argument you could put forth right now. You are way too hung up on the culture war. The pandemic is not related to your personal political vendettas in the slightest.

So I should just shut up and accept the hypocrisy and injustice?  Is that what you're saying?

People who maintain America are lectured to.  People who have attempted to destroy our cities are given not just empathy, but praise.  "Peaceful Protesters" (who are not the bulk of people in the streets) that have been disregarding all pandemic protocols to virtue signal get to spread the virus with impunity and are praised as "courageous" by public officials.  And law abiding churchgoers are told they can't do what lawbreaking and quarantine-breaking protesters and rioters are praised for.

Why should I just sit here and take that?  Really, why?  Because it's for the greater good?

If Trump is reelected, I will note that, in no small part, our leaders chose to sing the virtue of criminals in the streets while lying about their actual behavior, while lambasting people who are pulling their weight (or being prevented from doing so due to pandemic ridiculousness) and obeying the law.  They chose to enforce quarantines on law-abiding citizens, but not on criminal rioters.

My contempt for the protester grows with every measure taken against law abiding citizens that they have been excused from.
[/quote]

[It’s so Joever]

The fact that everyone is OK with what protesters have been doing in the streets.

The proper cost to public officials that have said nothing (or even condoned) the protesting in the streets should be a total loss of credibility on the COVID-19 issue.  They don't deserve credibility; not with such a nakedly political double standard.  Honestly, how dare they lecture law-abiding people on this when they said nothing about the coronavirus to the Mobs in the streets?

Well, I'm not okay with it. And even if I was okay with protesters breaking quarantine to loot and virtue-signal, that wouldn't matter. What's done is done. Playing with whataboutisms is just about the lamest possible argument you could put forth right now. You are way too hung up on the culture war. The pandemic is not related to your personal political vendettas in the slightest.

So I should just shut up and accept the hypocrisy and injustice?  Is that what you're saying?

People who maintain America are lectured to.  People who have attempted to destroy our cities are given not just empathy, but praise.  "Peaceful Protesters" (who are not the bulk of people in the streets) that have been disregarding all pandemic protocols to virtue signal get to spread the virus with impunity and are praised as "courageous" by public officials.  And law abiding churchgoers are told they can't do what lawbreaking and quarantine-breaking protesters and rioters are praised for.

Why should I just sit here and take that?  Really, why?  Because it's for the greater good?

If Trump is reelected, I will note that, in no small part, our leaders chose to sing the virtue of criminals in the streets while lying about their actual behavior, while lambasting people who are pulling their weight (or being prevented from doing so due to pandemic ridiculousness) and obeying the law.  They chose to enforce quarantines on law-abiding citizens, but not on criminal rioters.

My contempt for the protester grows with every measure taken against law abiding citizens that they have been excused from.

[/quote]
Funny, but I am pretty sure Fuzzy voted for Obama in 2012. Still, his lack of knowledge on Covid-19 and general epidemiology is astounding.
Also he seems unaware to process the idea that many of us liberals didn’t support the protests because of Covid.

[Fuzzy Bear]

So I should just shut up and accept the hypocrisy and injustice?  Is that what you're saying?

No, but you shouldn't use it as justification for further high-risk activities that further endanger the public. Make sure you vote against or write to the politicians that have failed you, but do not advocate for spreading the virus with a mentality of "THEY got away with their misdeeds, so therefore other groups should get away with it too. It's only fair." That is a very dangerous attitude, which by the way goes against "law and order" and christian doctrines.

But, again:  There's no scorn from you for the protesters.

It wasn't necessary to protest as they did in the midst of a pandemic.  In the context of a pandemic as awful as you say it was, what has gone on in the streets has been, at best, narcissistic and self-absorbed virtue signaling.  At worst, it has been criminal arson, vandalism, etc.  And you have no condemnation for their behavior, pandemic-wise.

[Fuzzy Bear]

The fact that everyone is OK with what protesters have been doing in the streets.

The proper cost to public officials that have said nothing (or even condoned) the protesting in the streets should be a total loss of credibility on the COVID-19 issue.  They don't deserve credibility; not with such a nakedly political double standard.  Honestly, how dare they lecture law-abiding people on this when they said nothing about the coronavirus to the Mobs in the streets?

Well, I'm not okay with it. And even if I was okay with protesters breaking quarantine to loot and virtue-signal, that wouldn't matter. What's done is done. Playing with whataboutisms is just about the lamest possible argument you could put forth right now. You are way too hung up on the culture war. The pandemic is not related to your personal political vendettas in the slightest.

So I should just shut up and accept the hypocrisy and injustice?  Is that what you're saying?

People who maintain America are lectured to.  People who have attempted to destroy our cities are given not just empathy, but praise.  "Peaceful Protesters" (who are not the bulk of people in the streets) that have been disregarding all pandemic protocols to virtue signal get to spread the virus with impunity and are praised as "courageous" by public officials.  And law abiding churchgoers are told they can't do what lawbreaking and quarantine-breaking protesters and rioters are praised for.

Why should I just sit here and take that?  Really, why?  Because it's for the greater good?

If Trump is reelected, I will note that, in no small part, our leaders chose to sing the virtue of criminals in the streets while lying about their actual behavior, while lambasting people who are pulling their weight (or being prevented from doing so due to pandemic ridiculousness) and obeying the law.  They chose to enforce quarantines on law-abiding citizens, but not on criminal rioters.

My contempt for the protester grows with every measure taken against law abiding citizens that they have been excused from.

Funny, but I am pretty sure Fuzzy voted for Obama in 2012. Still, his lack of knowledge on Covid-19 and general epidemiology is astounding.
Also he seems unaware to process the idea that many of us liberals didn’t support the protests because of Covid.
[/quote]

I know you have, Forumlurker; you're one of the few with consistency and integrity on this issue.

If others have "opposed the protesters", they've done so ever so quietly.  They should be roasted with the same furor and intensity afforded to Rodney Howard Browne or the folks that protested for their livelihoods in Michigan.

The fact that the criminal mobs were "marching against racism" (or whatever they wish to claim) doe not impact epidemiology.