Axis wins WWII

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

So what do you think would happen? I think Ameica would retreat into isolationism and stagnation. The "lets beat them mentality" of our cold war would fade by the 70's(as it did in our timeline) but theres no rwgan to revive it so America opts to not press its advantages. The Axis Empires would hold on until the 2040's or so when the cracks appear in the system. Instead of being the lead power in an empty world order America would simply be a weak power in a fascist world order dominated by Berlin and Tokyo.

[minionofmidas]

Never an option after America's entry into the war.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

The axis victory would depend on us being out of the war. Basicalsly had FDR shot in 1933.

[skybridge]

So what do you think would happen? I think Ameica would retreat into isolationism and stagnation. The "lets beat them mentality" of our cold war would fade by the 70's(as it did in our timeline) but theres no rwgan to revive it so America opts to not press its advantages. The Axis Empires would hold on until the 2040's or so when the cracks appear in the system. Instead of being the lead power in an empty world order America would simply be a weak power in a fascist world order dominated by Berlin and Tokyo.

Let's assume Hitler never changed his policy of bombing British mainland and they eventually submit. Then he attacks the Soviet Union, and because he's only fighting on one front, submits them entirely and wins access to their to petroleum reserves. The Japanese help secure the eastern Soviet borders and with combined Axis technological wisdom, the supplies are theirs. Hitler goes on to subdue the rest of Europe and Africa; Japan subdues all of Asia and Australia. Allying themselves for the final blitz on the Americas, Hitler attacks South America (due to local support, and with the help of African bases), while Japan attacks North America. South America crumbles easily, and--with the resources of the rest of the planet at their disposal, and Hitler being the first to develop the atomic bomb--the outcome of the final war in North America will be decided by whomever American local rebels lend their support to. Feeling more threatened by Japan, and more ties to Hitler, the axis clashes one last time with an all out Hitler victory. Hitler then proceeds to every non-blond-blue-eyed-Aryan but himself killed. But since the ever expansionist Nazi dogma can never be fully satisfied, they proceed to explore outer space in search of other inferior races....

PS: "rwgan" is still a leftist when all this happens, so is killed with thousands of others in the blitz on North America.

[dazzleman]

This question betrays a certain lack of understanding of what was at stake in World War II.

Had the axis won World War II, the US would have come under foreign domination.  There would be no more America in the sense that we know it.  There is no way the US could have survived in its present form without allies in a world dominated by murderous thugs like the Nazis.

The greatness of FDR, despite all his other weaknesses, particularly on domestic policy, is that he recognized this long before most other Americans did.

[Colin]

This question betrays a certain lack of understanding of what was at stake in World War II.

Had the axis won World War II, the US would have come under foreign domination.  There would be no more America in the sense that we know it.  There is no way the US could have survived in its present form without allies in a world dominated by murderous thugs like the Nazis.

The greatness of FDR, despite all his other weaknesses, particularly on domestic policy, is that he recognized this long before most other Americans did.

I doubt that. According to Hitler himself he had no interest in controlling American affairs especially since he knew that America could not be easily attacked by either of the two main Axis powers. It would take huge amphibious landings and then fighting the American military on their own turf, something that Hitler would have dispised. The only part of America that I could see being attacked and taken in Hawaii.

The Japanese themselves would see no real help in attacking America proper since it would A) overextend their already overextended military and B) it would not fit into their plan of an East Asian empire. At the beginning of the war you already have people like Yamamoto warning against fighting the Americans at sea across the Pacific Ocean even though the Japanese have the distinct advantage at the beginning of the war.

If the Axis had won WWII Western Europe, with or without Britain, probably would have been made German client states but independent nontheless, much like the Warsaw Pact contries after 1945. He might even allow Britain to keep its empire and oversee international affairs since Hitler's main focus, as it was during the war, was on domination of the European continent.

Eastern Europe would probably be fully absorbed into the Reich as per Hitler's idea of lebensraum. The policy of moving ethnic Germans into these areas to make them part of the Reich would have continued and the Slavs probably would have become somewhat of a slave class.

The Japanese probably would have taken the rest of China, South East Asia and Indonesia as well as all the islands in the Pacific, including Hawaii. Or what could have just as easily have happened is that the Americans never declare war on the Germans and just fight a Pacific War against the Japanese eventually defeating them. I can actually see this happening more than the US completely losing WWII. If you have more isolationist presidents during the thirties and forties then when the Japanese Sneak Attack of Pearl Harbour occurs the nation would be much more inclined to go to war with only Japan instead of declare war on the Axis as a whole.

All in all I highly doubt that America would have been made some dystopian client state of the two Axis powers a la The Man in the High Castle. It is much more likely that the US mainland would be unharmed by the war and that a "cold war" of sorts may break out between the Germany and the United States. Personally I believe that America probably would have gone to war with Japan at some time between the rise of the militarist government in 1933, IIRC, and 1950. There was just too much conflict in the Pacific for that not to occur even with an isolationist President in power.

The thinking of how long something like fascism could survive I would say not much longer than Hitler ultimately lives. I see it as a much more personalist force than an overarching political system akin to Communism. If we take into account that Hitler had developed late stage Parkinson's by 1944, as many medical professionals have said, he might have been dead by the early '50s and unless another strong leader comes to power we could see a general weakening of Germany.

Also the process of getting farther and farther away from the event that brought these governments to power and the reasons why they were chosen becomes less clear they will lose whatever hold they had over the people at that time and would have to resort to harsher and harsher measures to control the populace.

I'll give them into the mid '70s and possibly early '80s before they collapse. Italy may be the China of this timeline where they may just continually reform fascism instead of trying to actually change, since out of all the nations in which fascism developed Italy had the strongest ties with its ideological orgins and history.

[PBrunsel]

Say hello to President Lindbergh then.

[jokerman]

Say hello to President Lindbergh then.

Who indeed would give our nation over to the nazis.

[MasterJedi]

Never an option after America's entry into the war.

^^^^^

[12th Doctor]

Acctually, if FDR had died, chances are that we would have slipped into a system much like the one in Europe where you had an extreme left-wing faction, an extreme right-wing faction and a ever shrinking middle ground.  Had someone not stepped in to keep the country level, then we probably would have ended up tilting one way or the other in the end.

[J. J.]

I've got to agree with Super on this.  Even with FDR, there were extreme left and right wing factions in the US in the early 1930's. 

[MissCatholic]

Britain/Poland destroyed the german airforce.
The soveits destroyed the german army.

America turned up after the damage had been done. Had they turned up earlier maybe no nuclear bombs. no cold war.

[jokerman]

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If Hitler was so opposed to irrational invasions then why did he commit to the king of irrational invasions, the campaign into Russia? 

[Colin]

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If Hitler was so opposed to irrational invasions then why did he commit to the king of irrational invasions, the campaign into Russia? 

Well it wasn't so irrational in 1941 when operation Barbarossa began. Operation Barbarossa began in June 1941 when Britain was basically bombed heavily by Luftwaffe aircraft and was in no shape to counter-attack German forces in France. Hitler and his generals could see that an amphibious attack across the English Channel, the famed Operation Sea Lion, would have been an enormous failure. So Hitler instead turned his attention upon the east, as he had always wanted as per his idea of lebensraum which I mentioned earlier.

The Western Front was basically over and Hitler would only have to keep an eye on any build up in the UK without sacreficing assets from Russia. This being June of 1941 the US was still neutral and not involved yet in actual combat, though they were supplying British forces in small amounts. Without prior knowledge of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour later that year Hitler would have obviously thought that he had swept away two of Germany's major enemies, Britain and France, and could thus concentrate on taking the East without really bothering to maintain a Western Front.

Also Hitler believed that his technological superiority and his military advantages at the beginning of Barbarossa would be enough for him to take Russia by storm as he did with France and Britain.

Even though Hitler's attack of the USSR, in hindsight, looks completely insane at the time and with the knowledge that Hitler and his generals had it seemed like another swift and winnable front for the Reich.

As for the attack of America that would be completely different than Russia. It would take a full amphibious landing, the size of D-Day, crossing the entire Atlantic Ocean from Le Havre, France, the major Nazi seaport on the Atlantic, to some point on the East Coast. Ferrying the troops for D-Day, and Germany's aborted Operation Sea Lion, 90 miles across the English Channel was considered incredibly dangerous and would have a high probability of failure, actually by all accounts D-Day should have failed if not for German incompetence and sheer luck on the part of the Allies. So a 4,000 mile amphibious assault in 1943-1947 or so would be absolutely impossible.

The only possible way America itself could have been attacked would have been a much larger version of the Japanese assaults on Attu and Kiska in Alaska. The Japanese could have then island hopped the Aluetians, taken Alaska and then marched south through Canada and into the United States though this, in and of itself, probably would not have been worth the effort since it would have completely destroyed the Japanese war machine even if the Americans had been severely beaten in the Pacific and in Europe.

[J. J.]

I would need a scenario that discounts Britain.  Sea Lion would have been a failure, even if the RAF had been severely damaged.

There is no way any British government (unless headed by Sir Oswald Moseley) would make peace with a Nazi Germany that occupies the Low Countries.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

An Axis victory in WWII is goung to need at a minimum either an earlier or better executed Barbarossa so that Moscow is catptured in the fall of 1941.  The loss of Moscow in 1941 would have ensured the loss of Leningrad and Archangel in 1942 meaning that American Lend Lease aid to Russia would have to take the much longer route through Persia.

Next, have the Japanese focus operations in the Indian Ocean instead of the Central Pacific and provide additional support to the Indian National Army in 1942.

By the end of 1943, it would be conceivable for the Germans to hold everything west of the Urals and for the INA to have "liberated" most of India from the British,  Now have Ataturk join the Axis so as to  "liberate" the Mountain Turks (i.e. the Kurds) and Cyprus and the Axis would control a fortress Eurasia that it would be difficult for them to dislodged from.  With trooops freed up form the Eastern front, it is hard to imagine any invasion of France in 1944, and that of Italy would have bogged down.  With Germany still in the war by the late summer of 1945, Hitler would have survived until August  1945 when the Enola Gay drops Little Boy on Berlin.  However, as impressive as the atomic bomb was, with the ability to diplace civilians and industry eastward, I doubt if it would have ended the war in 1945.  The invasion of Japan in 1946 proves very costly, but succeds.  By 1947, the INA negotiates a wthdrawl of an independent and ostensibly united India from the war, althio there is a large degree of Muslim unrest, and American divisions link up with Soviet remanants and begin to push west from the Urals.  The obvious question is can Germany develop an A-bomb before they are defeated in 1949 or 1950.  I think they can, since they should be able to shoot down some of the A-bombers and gain not only fissile material but also a guide to how to build an atomic bomb from the wreckage.  They won't be able to loft as many A-bombs as the Americans and their reliance on rockets instead of bombers woudl have made them less accurate, but I expect Britain would be highly devastated and at least one American city would have been hit, either by a sub-lauched A4 variant or by the A10 ICBM.

In short, I can see the Axis making WWII longer and nastier by doing better, but winning it is out of the question without making some fundamental changes in the ideology of the participants.

[adam]

My British ancestors probably would have been exterminated, and I wouldn't be here to discuss it.

[Michael Z]

The Nazis would have installed a puppet government in the UK, possibly with Lord Halifax at the helm. America's role would be to provide military and financial "assistance" in Hitler's fight against the Bolsheviks in the eastern regions of the Greater German Empire (which were previously Russian territory - bearing in mind that Hitler wanted to wipe Russia, as a country, off the map) in exchange for peace. An alternative scenario would be a Cold War between Germany and the US - either that or Germany holds the monopoly on nuclear weapons technology. But that's all speculation, obviously.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

So what do you think would happen? I think Ameica would retreat into isolationism and stagnation. The "lets beat them mentality" of our cold war would fade by the 70's(as it did in our timeline) but theres no rwgan to revive it so America opts to not press its advantages. The Axis Empires would hold on until the 2040's or so when the cracks appear in the system. Instead of being the lead power in an empty world order America would simply be a weak power in a fascist world order dominated by Berlin and Tokyo.

Who in Axis?  Since Mussolini was Hitler's pawn, it's b/t Hit and Jap.  Hit would win, controlling the whole world, so we'd be under Germanic rule.  Although for Hitler to control the whole world, it'd end pretty quickly leaving us in anarchy.  If we were able to return pretty normally, we'd be OK, but if we were left in anarchy more than a few months, America would crumble and new countries would form all over the world (and what used to be the U.S.)

[Colin]

So what do you think would happen? I think Ameica would retreat into isolationism and stagnation. The "lets beat them mentality" of our cold war would fade by the 70's(as it did in our timeline) but theres no rwgan to revive it so America opts to not press its advantages. The Axis Empires would hold on until the 2040's or so when the cracks appear in the system. Instead of being the lead power in an empty world order America would simply be a weak power in a fascist world order dominated by Berlin and Tokyo.

Who in Axis?  Since Mussolini was Hitler's pawn, it's b/t Hit and Jap.  Hit would win, controlling the whole world, so we'd be under Germanic rule.  Although for Hitler to control the whole world, it'd end pretty quickly leaving us in anarchy.  If we were able to return pretty normally, we'd be OK, but if we were left in anarchy more than a few months, America would crumble and new countries would form all over the world (and what used to be the U.S.)

What about the Japanese?

I'm guessing this is a rather unknown fact but Hitler didn't want to take over the world he wanted to make Germany the largest and strongest nation in Europe. His non-European adventures, of Rommel et al, were mostly to distract the European power or to gain valuable resources, like oil, that were needed for the war effort.

Another reason that this whole America succumbs to the Fascists idea is plain wrong is because neither fascist nation had any sort of long-range aircraft that could fly accross the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean and bomb American cities. Germany had really basically stopped aircraft development and testing from about 1940-1943, after the Battle of Britain, when they believed that their aircraft were of such superior quality that they need not develop any new technologies.

The Japanese were developing a long-range six engine bomber known as the Fugaku that could fly to the United States but in 1945 that was at least another year or two from flying a mission.

Many have speculated that the German long-range V2, dubbed the A9/A10, would have been able to scare America enough, or carry a big enough payload like an A-Bomb, that it could have led to some sort of an American withdrawl but we have to remember that it took Von Braun and his team until the late 50's to develop such weapons for the United States during the Cold War so even without the holdups and change in countries I doubt this weapon could have been available prior to 1948 or so, by which time the war would certainly be over.

As I have continued to state throughout this thread an Axis victory would effect America and Canada very little when concerned with domestic affairs, of course the whole geo-political spectrum would be changed. The US wouldn't be invaded or made a Reichcommisariat or a Colony of Japan since that was just impossible. Nor do I think Britain would have been invaded, since, as every good Alternate Historian knowns, it is almost a consensus that Sea Lion would have been a disasterous endeavour.

[Michael Z]

So what do you think would happen? I think Ameica would retreat into isolationism and stagnation. The "lets beat them mentality" of our cold war would fade by the 70's(as it did in our timeline) but theres no rwgan to revive it so America opts to not press its advantages. The Axis Empires would hold on until the 2040's or so when the cracks appear in the system. Instead of being the lead power in an empty world order America would simply be a weak power in a fascist world order dominated by Berlin and Tokyo.

Who in Axis?  Since Mussolini was Hitler's pawn, it's b/t Hit and Jap.  Hit would win, controlling the whole world, so we'd be under Germanic rule.  Although for Hitler to control the whole world, it'd end pretty quickly leaving us in anarchy.  If we were able to return pretty normally, we'd be OK, but if we were left in anarchy more than a few months, America would crumble and new countries would form all over the world (and what used to be the U.S.)

What about the Japanese?

I'm guessing this is a rather unknown fact but Hitler didn't want to take over the world he wanted to make Germany the largest and strongest nation in Europe. His non-European adventures, of Rommel et al, were mostly to distract the European power or to gain valuable resources, like oil, that were needed for the war effort.

Another reason that this whole America succumbs to the Fascists idea is plain wrong is because neither fascist nation had any sort of long-range aircraft that could fly accross the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean and bomb American cities. Germany had really basically stopped aircraft development and testing from about 1940-1943, after the Battle of Britain, when they believed that their aircraft were of such superior quality that they need not develop any new technologies.

The Japanese were developing a long-range six engine bomber known as the Fugaku that could fly to the United States but in 1945 that was at least another year or two from flying a mission.

Many have speculated that the German long-range V2, dubbed the A9/A10, would have been able to scare America enough, or carry a big enough payload like an A-Bomb, that it could have led to some sort of an American withdrawl but we have to remember that it took Von Braun and his team until the late 50's to develop such weapons for the United States during the Cold War so even without the holdups and change in countries I doubt this weapon could have been available prior to 1948 or so, by which time the war would certainly be over.

As I have continued to state throughout this thread an Axis victory would effect America and Canada very little when concerned with domestic affairs, of course the whole geo-political spectrum would be changed. The US wouldn't be invaded or made a Reichcommisariat or a Colony of Japan since that was just impossible. Nor do I think Britain would have been invaded, since, as every good Alternate Historian knowns, it is almost a consensus that Sea Lion would have been a disasterous endeavour.

That's exactly right. Plus, Hitler had no interest to colonise Britain or "Germanise" it, as he did not regard the British as an inferior race to be subordinated the way he did with the Slavs. He regarded the Slav territories as worthless, to be wiped off the map and turned into Lebensraum for the Greater German Empire, which was to stretch as far east as Kazakhstan. Scary stuff.

[afleitch]

I think by 1938, Hitler was genuinely suprised at how 'sticky' Britain was being with regards to his own ambitions. While there is no doubt the SS would hold positions of authority in a defeated SS and the Jewish population would have been deported Britain would remain subo
-ordinated but relatively untouched. The Channel Islands, which were occupied are a case in point.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

So what do you think would happen? I think Ameica would retreat into isolationism and stagnation. The "lets beat them mentality" of our cold war would fade by the 70's(as it did in our timeline) but theres no rwgan to revive it so America opts to not press its advantages. The Axis Empires would hold on until the 2040's or so when the cracks appear in the system. Instead of being the lead power in an empty world order America would simply be a weak power in a fascist world order dominated by Berlin and Tokyo.

Who in Axis?  Since Mussolini was Hitler's pawn, it's b/t Hit and Jap.  Hit would win, controlling the whole world, so we'd be under Germanic rule.  Although for Hitler to control the whole world, it'd end pretty quickly leaving us in anarchy.  If we were able to return pretty normally, we'd be OK, but if we were left in anarchy more than a few months, America would crumble and new countries would form all over the world (and what used to be the U.S.)

What about the Japanese?

I'm guessing this is a rather unknown fact but Hitler didn't want to take over the world he wanted to make Germany the largest and strongest nation in Europe. His non-European adventures, of Rommel et al, were mostly to distract the European power or to gain valuable resources, like oil, that were needed for the war effort.

Another reason that this whole America succumbs to the Fascists idea is plain wrong is because neither fascist nation had any sort of long-range aircraft that could fly accross the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean and bomb American cities. Germany had really basically stopped aircraft development and testing from about 1940-1943, after the Battle of Britain, when they believed that their aircraft were of such superior quality that they need not develop any new technologies.

The Japanese were developing a long-range six engine bomber known as the Fugaku that could fly to the United States but in 1945 that was at least another year or two from flying a mission.

Many have speculated that the German long-range V2, dubbed the A9/A10, would have been able to scare America enough, or carry a big enough payload like an A-Bomb, that it could have led to some sort of an American withdrawl but we have to remember that it took Von Braun and his team until the late 50's to develop such weapons for the United States during the Cold War so even without the holdups and change in countries I doubt this weapon could have been available prior to 1948 or so, by which time the war would certainly be over.

As I have continued to state throughout this thread an Axis victory would effect America and Canada very little when concerned with domestic affairs, of course the whole geo-political spectrum would be changed. The US wouldn't be invaded or made a Reichcommisariat or a Colony of Japan since that was just impossible. Nor do I think Britain would have been invaded, since, as every good Alternate Historian knowns, it is almost a consensus that Sea Lion would have been a disasterous endeavour.

Because if Germ. didn't attack, Jap would've Hakku Itchu (sp?)--8 corners--they'd have come after germ.

[Colin]

So what do you think would happen? I think Ameica would retreat into isolationism and stagnation. The "lets beat them mentality" of our cold war would fade by the 70's(as it did in our timeline) but theres no rwgan to revive it so America opts to not press its advantages. The Axis Empires would hold on until the 2040's or so when the cracks appear in the system. Instead of being the lead power in an empty world order America would simply be a weak power in a fascist world order dominated by Berlin and Tokyo.

Who in Axis?  Since Mussolini was Hitler's pawn, it's b/t Hit and Jap.  Hit would win, controlling the whole world, so we'd be under Germanic rule.  Although for Hitler to control the whole world, it'd end pretty quickly leaving us in anarchy.  If we were able to return pretty normally, we'd be OK, but if we were left in anarchy more than a few months, America would crumble and new countries would form all over the world (and what used to be the U.S.)

What about the Japanese?

I'm guessing this is a rather unknown fact but Hitler didn't want to take over the world he wanted to make Germany the largest and strongest nation in Europe. His non-European adventures, of Rommel et al, were mostly to distract the European power or to gain valuable resources, like oil, that were needed for the war effort.

Another reason that this whole America succumbs to the Fascists idea is plain wrong is because neither fascist nation had any sort of long-range aircraft that could fly accross the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean and bomb American cities. Germany had really basically stopped aircraft development and testing from about 1940-1943, after the Battle of Britain, when they believed that their aircraft were of such superior quality that they need not develop any new technologies.

The Japanese were developing a long-range six engine bomber known as the Fugaku that could fly to the United States but in 1945 that was at least another year or two from flying a mission.

Many have speculated that the German long-range V2, dubbed the A9/A10, would have been able to scare America enough, or carry a big enough payload like an A-Bomb, that it could have led to some sort of an American withdrawl but we have to remember that it took Von Braun and his team until the late 50's to develop such weapons for the United States during the Cold War so even without the holdups and change in countries I doubt this weapon could have been available prior to 1948 or so, by which time the war would certainly be over.

As I have continued to state throughout this thread an Axis victory would effect America and Canada very little when concerned with domestic affairs, of course the whole geo-political spectrum would be changed. The US wouldn't be invaded or made a Reichcommisariat or a Colony of Japan since that was just impossible. Nor do I think Britain would have been invaded, since, as every good Alternate Historian knowns, it is almost a consensus that Sea Lion would have been a disasterous endeavour.

Because if Germ. didn't attack, Jap would've Hakku Itchu (sp?)--8 corners--they'd have come after germ.

That makes no sense. What are you talking about?

[J. J.]

Basically, if the war starts in 1939, and England is not neutral or allied to Germany, you are going have to come up with some scenario in which the UK either is occupied or a separate peace is made.  The latter will not happen so long as the Nazis occupy the invasion beaches in the Low Countries.  "British Belgium" is a possibility, however.