Are any districts including the KY Bend actually contiguous?

[GM Team Member and Senator WB]

Kentucky Bend map
Jim Efaw, author of this work [CC BY-SA (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5)]


Most of you have heard of the Kentucky Bend, the small area of Kentucky surrounded by Missouri and Tennessee. However, this area leaves a question I've wanted to ask. Is any district containing this area actually contiguous? A quick look on google maps shows that there's no airstrips (obviously, since the bend only has 18 people), and any water route would have to go through the territorial waters of Missouri of Tennessee (see above)

So, if you have to go through another state to get to this area from mainland KY, is it really contiguous?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The most extreme example of this is any district including the Omaha suburb of Carter Lake, Iowa, which is only accessible by Nebraska, as an actual non-neglible amount of people live there (3,785 by last estimate.)

However water continuity counts. Look at the New York maps, or Virginia before Court ordered redraw. So yes the Kentucky Bend and Carter Lake's districts are legally contiguous due to water connectivity.

[Tintrlvr]

The most extreme example of this is any district including the Omaha suburb of Carter Lake, Iowa, which is only accessible by Nebraska, as an actual non-neglible amount of people live there (3,785 by last estimate.)

However water continuity counts. Look at the New York maps, or Virginia before Court ordered redraw. So yes the Kentucky Bend and Carter Lake's districts are legally contiguous due to water connectivity.

I think the distinction that could be drawn is that the water connection in those places is still in the relevant state, even for Carter Lake. There's no water contiguity within the state of Kentucky to the Kentucky Bend, though.

[GM Team Member and Senator WB]

The most extreme example of this is any district including the Omaha suburb of Carter Lake, Iowa, which is only accessible by Nebraska, as an actual non-neglible amount of people live there (3,785 by last estimate.)

However water continuity counts. Look at the New York maps, or Virginia before Court ordered redraw. So yes the Kentucky Bend and Carter Lake's districts are legally contiguous due to water connectivity.

I think the distinction that could be drawn is that the water connection in those places is still in the relevant state, even for Carter Lake. There's no water contiguity within the state of Kentucky to the Kentucky Bend, though.

Yeah, that’s what I’m trying to say here. You could, if you wanted, take a Jetski and get to Carter Lake while staying in Iowa’s water. That’s not the case in the Kentucky bend.

[Vosem]

The Kentucky Bend is one of the very few (maybe the only?) areas in the United States that uses a different state in its mailing address: all mailing addresses in the Bend are signed Tiptonville, TN.

[Del Tachi]

Is there even any population in the Kentucky bend?  If not, then I don't see a contiguity problem.

More generally, I don't see contiguity as a problem as long as political subdivisions (i.e., states, counties, cities, places, etc.) are being kept whole.  A whole subdivision cannot, by definition, be non-contiguous in a way that is relevant for political redistricting.

[Skill and Chance]

Is there even any population in the Kentucky bend?  If not, then I don't see a contiguity problem.

More generally, I don't see contiguity as a problem as long as political subdivisions (i.e., states, counties, cities, places, etc.) are being kept whole.  A whole subdivision cannot, by definition, be non-contiguous in a way that is relevant for political redistricting.

Yes, at the end of the day, the state lines win.  Maine was once a part of Massachusetts while NH and VT were already separate states.  MA also had a lot of CDs at that time.  Do we have a map available to see if any of them mixed  part of modern Massachusetts with modern Maine? 

In the modern day, there have occasionally been proposals to make Puerto Rico part of Florida or New York. 

[Oryxslayer]

Another extreme example of this is Point Roberts, Washington. 1.3K people living in an area that is bordered on three sides by water and one side by Canada.

[GM Team Member and Senator WB]

Is there even any population in the Kentucky bend?  If not, then I don't see a contiguity problem.

More generally, I don't see contiguity as a problem as long as political subdivisions (i.e., states, counties, cities, places, etc.) are being kept whole.  A whole subdivision cannot, by definition, be non-contiguous in a way that is relevant for political redistricting.

As of the 2010 census, the population was 18 persons in this area, tabulated as the Kentucky Bend Census County Division.[3] The mailing address of the area is Tiptonville, Tennessee. New Madrid, Missouri, is directly across the river to the north, but it is not connected to the Bend by road or ferry.

[GM Team Member and Senator WB]

Another extreme example of this is Point Roberts, Washington. 1.3K people living in an area that is bordered on three sides by water and one side by Canada.

The big difference here is that Point Roberts has a marina and you can get to the mainland by boat while staying in Washington's waters. With the Kentucky Bend, you have to go through another state.

[OBD]

I'm pretty sure that this (other than the Lake of the Woods thing) is the only place where you have to go through another state's lands or waters to get to the remainder of the state, so no, any of the districts with the Kentucky Bend are not contiguous. That said, it doesn't matter enough to get the attention of any courts, since it can't really be helped.

[nclib]

Would water contiguity allow CDs in Hawaii to have individual precincts bordering water, to have both different CDs? Like each Hawaiian island have both HI-1 and HI-2 precincts bordering water?

[Skill and Chance]

Would water contiguity allow CDs in Hawaii to have individual precincts bordering water, to have both different CDs? Like each Hawaiian island have both HI-1 and HI-2 precincts bordering water?

Yes.  you could theoretically checkerboard the coastline of an island to where all neighboring precincts that touch the beach are in opposite districts. 

[GM Team Member and Senator WB]

Would water contiguity allow CDs in Hawaii to have individual precincts bordering water, to have both different CDs? Like each Hawaiian island have both HI-1 and HI-2 precincts bordering water?

under a loose definition of contiguity, yes, though the courts would pretty obviously strike it down. I always make sure any maps I make are "driveable" contiguity (For example, having St. Tammany parish connect to Jefferson via the Pontchartrain Causeway)

I personally don't count things as contiguous unless there's a road or ferry between them. The only exception is Alaska where air travel is needed to get to remote towns. I also give an exception to Point Roberts, Carter Lake, and the NW Angle, though that's because they're either part of another precinct that's connected to the mainland (Carter Lake), or they have docks/marinas and can get to the mainland that way without going outside of the state (NW Angle and Pt. Roberts)

[Tintrlvr]

I'm pretty sure that this (other than the Lake of the Woods thing) is the only place where you have to go through another state's lands or waters to get to the remainder of the state, so no, any of the districts with the Kentucky Bend are not contiguous. That said, it doesn't matter enough to get the attention of any courts, since it can't really be helped.

You can reach the Northwest Angle through Minnesota waters, just like with Point Roberts, WA and Carter Lake, IA.

Would water contiguity allow CDs in Hawaii to have individual precincts bordering water, to have both different CDs? Like each Hawaiian island have both HI-1 and HI-2 precincts bordering water?

under a loose definition of contiguity, yes, though the courts would pretty obviously strike it down. I always make sure any maps I make are "driveable" contiguity (For example, having St. Tammany parish connect to Jefferson via the Pontchartrain Causeway)

I personally don't count things as contiguous unless there's a road or ferry between them. The only exception is Alaska where air travel is needed to get to remote towns. I also give an exception to Point Roberts, Carter Lake, and the NW Angle, though that's because they're either part of another precinct that's connected to the mainland (Carter Lake), or they have docks/marinas and can get to the mainland that way without going outside of the state (NW Angle and Pt. Roberts)

I'm pretty sure the old Virginia map had water contiguity without bridge or ferry connections. It was struck down, but not for the water connections. And Jerry Nadler's NY-10 only sort of has road contiguity over water (it does have a tunnel connection, but the first opportunity to exit from the tunnel to street level is out of his district on the Brooklyn side, so you couldn't drive from one part to another, though there is a passenger ferry that doesn't go through any other district). So I don't think merely using water contiguity is going to be enough for at least a federal case necessarily, though states of course could feel differently.

[GM Team Member and Senator WB]

I'm pretty sure that this (other than the Lake of the Woods thing) is the only place where you have to go through another state's lands or waters to get to the remainder of the state, so no, any of the districts with the Kentucky Bend are not contiguous. That said, it doesn't matter enough to get the attention of any courts, since it can't really be helped.

You can reach the Northwest Angle through Minnesota waters, just like with Point Roberts, WA and Carter Lake, IA.

Would water contiguity allow CDs in Hawaii to have individual precincts bordering water, to have both different CDs? Like each Hawaiian island have both HI-1 and HI-2 precincts bordering water?

under a loose definition of contiguity, yes, though the courts would pretty obviously strike it down. I always make sure any maps I make are "driveable" contiguity (For example, having St. Tammany parish connect to Jefferson via the Pontchartrain Causeway)

I personally don't count things as contiguous unless there's a road or ferry between them. The only exception is Alaska where air travel is needed to get to remote towns. I also give an exception to Point Roberts, Carter Lake, and the NW Angle, though that's because they're either part of another precinct that's connected to the mainland (Carter Lake), or they have docks/marinas and can get to the mainland that way without going outside of the state (NW Angle and Pt. Roberts)

I'm pretty sure the old Virginia map had water contiguity without bridge or ferry connections. It was struck down, but not for the water connections. And Jerry Nadler's NY-10 only sort of has road contiguity over water (it does have a tunnel connection, but the first opportunity to exit from the tunnel to street level is out of his district on the Brooklyn side, so you couldn't drive from one part to another, though there is a passenger ferry that doesn't go through any other district). So I don't think merely using water contiguity is going to be enough for at least a federal case necessarily, though states of course could feel differently.

well that fits my definition of contiguity. For example I always group the San Juan islands in Washington to Anacortes because there's a ferry going between the Islands and there.

At least for State Legislative districts, I have found that my argument wouldn't hold up.

The first General Assembly after the adoption of this Constitution shall divide the State into thirty-eight Senatorial Districts, and one hundred Representative Districts, as nearly equal in population as may be without dividing any county...No part of a county shall be added to another county to make a district, and the counties forming a district shall be contiguous.

https://legislature.ky.gov/LRC/Publications/Informational%20Bulletins/ib210.pdf

So by my interpretation, since the Bend is in Fulton County, which is contiguous with the other counties making up the district, you can't really challenge any state legislative district. I may be wrong here though.

[Tintrlvr]

I'm pretty sure that this (other than the Lake of the Woods thing) is the only place where you have to go through another state's lands or waters to get to the remainder of the state, so no, any of the districts with the Kentucky Bend are not contiguous. That said, it doesn't matter enough to get the attention of any courts, since it can't really be helped.

You can reach the Northwest Angle through Minnesota waters, just like with Point Roberts, WA and Carter Lake, IA.

Would water contiguity allow CDs in Hawaii to have individual precincts bordering water, to have both different CDs? Like each Hawaiian island have both HI-1 and HI-2 precincts bordering water?

under a loose definition of contiguity, yes, though the courts would pretty obviously strike it down. I always make sure any maps I make are "driveable" contiguity (For example, having St. Tammany parish connect to Jefferson via the Pontchartrain Causeway)

I personally don't count things as contiguous unless there's a road or ferry between them. The only exception is Alaska where air travel is needed to get to remote towns. I also give an exception to Point Roberts, Carter Lake, and the NW Angle, though that's because they're either part of another precinct that's connected to the mainland (Carter Lake), or they have docks/marinas and can get to the mainland that way without going outside of the state (NW Angle and Pt. Roberts)

I'm pretty sure the old Virginia map had water contiguity without bridge or ferry connections. It was struck down, but not for the water connections. And Jerry Nadler's NY-10 only sort of has road contiguity over water (it does have a tunnel connection, but the first opportunity to exit from the tunnel to street level is out of his district on the Brooklyn side, so you couldn't drive from one part to another, though there is a passenger ferry that doesn't go through any other district). So I don't think merely using water contiguity is going to be enough for at least a federal case necessarily, though states of course could feel differently.

well that fits my definition of contiguity. For example I always group the San Juan islands in Washington to Anacortes because there's a ferry going between the Islands and there.

At least for State Legislative districts, I have found that my argument wouldn't hold up.

The first General Assembly after the adoption of this Constitution shall divide the State into thirty-eight Senatorial Districts, and one hundred Representative Districts, as nearly equal in population as may be without dividing any county...No part of a county shall be added to another county to make a district, and the counties forming a district shall be contiguous.

https://legislature.ky.gov/LRC/Publications/Informational%20Bulletins/ib210.pdf

So by my interpretation, since the Bend is in Fulton County, which is contiguous with the other counties making up the district, you can't really challenge any state legislative district. I may be wrong here though.

This would imply that you could draw a district that wasn't contiguous (ignoring the Bend for a moment) as long as the counties it included (parts of) were contiguous. (Although the minimal-county-splitting provision puts some limits on that.) That doesn't seem like the right result.

Re: NY-10, I usually would think a passenger ferry wouldn't count, but a car ferry would count (the ferry to the San Juan Islands is a car ferry). Of course, some islands don't have any official ferry connection in any case and have to go in some district.

[jimrtex]

Kentucky Bend map
Jim Efaw, author of this work [CC BY-SA (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5)]


Most of you have heard of the Kentucky Bend, the small area of Kentucky surrounded by Missouri and Tennessee. However, this area leaves a question I've wanted to ask. Is any district containing this area actually contiguous? A quick look on google maps shows that there's no airstrips (obviously, since the bend only has 18 people), and any water route would have to go through the territorial waters of Missouri of Tennessee (see above)

So, if you have to go through another state to get to this area from mainland KY, is it really contiguous?

In some cases the issue is ignored, or they may just challenge someone to sue.  Some cities in Wisconsin have exclaves, and they can be treated as part of the city for redistricting. They would certainly be so treated when drawing city council district (sometimes these correspond to airports, or water well sites, etc., but it is possible that they have non-zero census population).

As someone noted, the Kentucky constitution requires legislative districts made up of whole contiguous counties, with each county assumed to be self-contiguous. If equal protection required to be split (likely the case, the constitution was written in 1891) they Kentucky Supreme Court would require the spirit of the law to be upheld. You could not place Kentucky Bend into a district with Hickman County, bypassing the remainder of Fulton County.

St. Martin Parish is not self-contiguous (the intervening portion of Iberia Parish is unpopulated). Norfolk County, Massachusetts is not self-contiguous (Brookline and Cohasset). Maine permits towns to switch counties - contiguity is not required.

The island groups in Hawaii are separated by international waters. Not only are they not in Hawaii, they aren't even in the USA. There are redistricting provisions in the Hawaii Constitution to deal with this. Some have been overturned by the SCOTUS, others have been ignored at times, and currently required to be enforced by the Hawaii Supreme Court.

Due process and equal protection don't automatically override common sense.

[jimrtex]

Is there even any population in the Kentucky bend?  If not, then I don't see a contiguity problem.

More generally, I don't see contiguity as a problem as long as political subdivisions (i.e., states, counties, cities, places, etc.) are being kept whole.  A whole subdivision cannot, by definition, be non-contiguous in a way that is relevant for political redistricting.

Yes, at the end of the day, the state lines win.  Maine was once a part of Massachusetts while NH and VT were already separate states.  MA also had a lot of CDs at that time.  Do we have a map available to see if any of them mixed  part of modern Massachusetts with modern Maine? 

In the modern day, there have occasionally been proposals to make Puerto Rico part of Florida or New York. 

The congressional districts were always divided between Massachusetts and Maine. When Maine was split off in 1820 it was not inconceivable that Maine would become dominant by population. Only industrialization prevented this from happening.

[jimrtex]

Would water contiguity allow CDs in Hawaii to have individual precincts bordering water, to have both different CDs? Like each Hawaiian island have both HI-1 and HI-2 precincts bordering water?

Yes.  you could theoretically checkerboard the coastline of an island to where all neighboring precincts that touch the beach are in opposite districts. 

See New York City, particularly districts before 2010. It was always said that if Nadler had to travel by boat between the different parts of his district, he would sink the boat or a tidal wave would drown the Statue of Liberty. Even now, they had to use the interstate bridge rather than the Brooklyn Bridge out of concern that he would collapse a historical landmark.

[jimrtex]

I'm pretty sure that this (other than the Lake of the Woods thing) is the only place where you have to go through another state's lands or waters to get to the remainder of the state, so no, any of the districts with the Kentucky Bend are not contiguous. That said, it doesn't matter enough to get the attention of any courts, since it can't really be helped.

You can reach the Northwest Angle through Minnesota waters, just like with Point Roberts, WA and Carter Lake, IA.

Would water contiguity allow CDs in Hawaii to have individual precincts bordering water, to have both different CDs? Like each Hawaiian island have both HI-1 and HI-2 precincts bordering water?

under a loose definition of contiguity, yes, though the courts would pretty obviously strike it down. I always make sure any maps I make are "driveable" contiguity (For example, having St. Tammany parish connect to Jefferson via the Pontchartrain Causeway)

I personally don't count things as contiguous unless there's a road or ferry between them. The only exception is Alaska where air travel is needed to get to remote towns. I also give an exception to Point Roberts, Carter Lake, and the NW Angle, though that's because they're either part of another precinct that's connected to the mainland (Carter Lake), or they have docks/marinas and can get to the mainland that way without going outside of the state (NW Angle and Pt. Roberts)

I'm pretty sure the old Virginia map had water contiguity without bridge or ferry connections. It was struck down, but not for the water connections. And Jerry Nadler's NY-10 only sort of has road contiguity over water (it does have a tunnel connection, but the first opportunity to exit from the tunnel to street level is out of his district on the Brooklyn side, so you couldn't drive from one part to another, though there is a passenger ferry that doesn't go through any other district). So I don't think merely using water contiguity is going to be enough for at least a federal case necessarily, though states of course could feel differently.

The connections along the James River were used as evidence of racial gerrymandering.

[Vosem]

I'm pretty sure that this (other than the Lake of the Woods thing) is the only place where you have to go through another state's lands or waters to get to the remainder of the state, so no, any of the districts with the Kentucky Bend are not contiguous. That said, it doesn't matter enough to get the attention of any courts, since it can't really be helped.

What is "have to"? The Northwest Angle and Point Roberts are linked to mainland Minnesota and Washington by water, but you have to travel through Canada to get there by land. (Same goes for Carter Lake, which has no bridge to the remainder of Iowa and can only be practically reached through Nebraska).

There are also some places which are connected by land to the rest of the state, but where the only roads that have been built go through somewhere else. Hyder, Alaska, can only practically be reached by road through British Columbia or by plane (because there's a huge impassable bear-infested mountain range in the way). You also have to go through Canada if you'd like to drive to Estcourt Station, Maine.

The Lost Peninsula of Monroe County, Michigan, can only be reached by going through Ohio. Knotts Island, North Carolina, can only be reached by road going through Virginia (though there is a ferry). Because of shifts in the Mississippi River (a la Carter Lake), Kaskaskia, IL -- once the state capital -- can now be reached only by going through Missouri (although it's also now a ghost town maintaining its incorporation because of sentimentality). Those examples are just off the top of my head -- there're certainly more out there.